New scholarly article on Rigdon-Book of Mormon connection

[why_me]

where do you get these ideas? seriously, Emma gained money and property both. she managed to hang on to both when BY tried to take it. she lost a child due to disease. the “antimormon” hatred you refer to was actually outraged mormons who discovered JS trying to sleep with their wives/daughters/sisters.
but it would have provided no benefit to them. they wanted to profit from the BoM themselves. they could only do that by maintaining the story that the BoM was true. thus they tried the “fallen prophet” approach.

you are joking right? his wife’s biggest problem with him was how foolish he was with his money. he was easily influenced by religious claims. he joined many churches in his time and claimed a greater testimony of the shakers than the BoM. he was an easy mark and thus was targeted to provide the startup funds.

You need to check out the Martin Harris story. He wanted hard proof and he got it. He saw the plates. End of story. His wife did influence him and this is why he didn’t want to be duped. But he claimed to see the plates and was one of the three witnesses. Emma lost a child due to a mob beating of JS during a chilled night. The child died due to complications with exposure. But yes, the child was sick also.

Emma eventually returned to Nauvoo and lived there for the rest of her life. But she was not rich. The lds church gave her some property but it was small consolation for the loss of her husband.

When one is angry with another human being and decide to break off relations with that human being and yet, see that human being prosper from a religious fraud that you may have instigated with that person, it becomes only natural to expose that fraud and become a hero to all protestant denominations. Or you can sit and seethed with anger as you watch that person still being successful in the fraud. Most people would expose the fraud. In this case, we have 11 witnesses to the book of mormon, plus Sidney Rigdon who kept their mouths shut. Truly amazing.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Emma lost a child due to a mob beating of JS during a chilled night. The child died due to complications with exposure. But yes, the child was sick also. .

The child died from measles, lots of children used to die from measles as a matter of fact they still do. An estimated 500 children die daily from measles. Complications from exposure pfft.

 

[BartBurk]

An interesting discussion is taking place on this topic over here:

mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=39911&st=160

Most of the word print studies in the past have indicated the Book of Mormon was written by more than one author. This is problematic for those who believe Joseph Smith wrote the book by himself. If Joseph had authored it by himself you wouldn’t expect to see multiple authors in these studies. That leaves two alternatives. The Book of Mormon may have been composed by various ancient authors as believing Mormons would assert. The other alternative is that several authors helped build it. There are many of us who are not surprised to find this study supporting the idea the Book of Mormon was written by Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdrey, Solomon Spalding and Parley P. Pratt with a lot of Biblical writing tossed in for good measure. It makes the case for the Rigdon-Spalding connection even stronger.

The ancient author idea can be tossed out simply because the civilization described in the Book of Mormon didn’t really exist as determined by archaeology, DNA, linguistics, etc. Now good evidence for modern writers authoring the Book of Mormon. It’s not a silver bullet, but it sure should give anyone who believes in the historicity of the Book of Mormon some pause.

 

[why_me]

The child died from measles, lots of children used to die from measles as a matter of fact they still do. An estimated 500 children die daily from measles. Complications from exposure pfft.

It has been documented as exposure. The mob burst into the home of Joseph and Emma Smith and the child caught a chill. You will need to read the biography of JS by Richard Bushman to see the information. It is published by Knopf.

The child was in a weakened state before the mob bursted in but the exposure did the damage.

 

[why_me]

The ancient author idea can be tossed out simply because the civilization described in the Book of Mormon didn’t really exist as determined by archaeology, DNA, linguistics, etc. Now good evidence for modern writers authoring the Book of Mormon. It’s not a silver bullet, but it sure should give anyone who believes in the historicity of the Book of Mormon some pause.

Actually, it doesn’t. I have written several posts in this thread about it and yet, you chose to ignore my explanations and information. Can you explain it to me?

And just who are the modern writers and why would many of them stick to their story even after falling out with Smith and yet, never saying a word about the fraud? It goes against human nature to have 11 witnesses to the book itself, plus Sidney and now Parly in on the fraud and yet, all keeping their mouths shut. Truly amazing!

 

[BartBurk]

Actually, it doesn’t. I have written several posts in this thread about it and yet, you chose to ignore my explanations and information. Can you explain it to me?

And just who are the modern writers and why would many of them stick to their story even after falling out with Smith and yet, never saying a word about the fraud? It goes against human nature to have 11 witnesses to the book itself, plus Sidney and now Parly in on the fraud and yet, all keeping their mouths shut. Truly amazing!

The modern writers are Rigdon, Cowdrey and Pratt with Joseph Smith as front man. Let me ask you a question–would you have blown the whistle on yourself in this situation? Rigdon was still trying to use the Book of Mormon after Joseph’s death to be leader of a church. Cowdrey is quoted by acquaintances as having actually denied the Book of Mormon. His return to the church seemed to be motivated by something other than faith. It’s also possible he was trying to protect his name at the end of his life by testifying of the Book of Mormon. Pratt seemed to enjoy the notoriety and plural wives he received from Mormonism. He was shot stealing a wife from a man in Arkansas. The character of all of these people is extremely suspect and you wonder why they wouldn’t tell the truth? You have to be deceiving yourself if you believe these people were trustworthy. The historical record doesn’t confirm that at all.

 

[Snow]

I think the evidence for Rigdon and Cowdrey’s involvement is pretty strong.

Yeah - I bet Mormons everywhere are losing sleep over this old chestnut.

Enlighten us. What are the four most compelling pieces of evidence that JS did translated/author/whatever the BoM himself.

Try and wow us will you please.

 

[BartBurk]

Yeah - I bet Mormons everywhere are losing sleep over this old chestnut.

Enlighten us. What are the four most compelling pieces of evidence that JS did translated/author/whatever the BoM himself.

Try and wow us will you please.

I don’t know of any good reason to believe Joseph Smith did much but serve as front man for the Book of Mormon. The “translation” was all just show.

 

[why_me]

The modern writers are Rigdon, Cowdrey and Pratt with Joseph Smith as front man. Let me ask you a question–would you have blown the whistle on yourself in this situation? Rigdon was still trying to use the Book of Mormon after Joseph’s death to be leader of a church. Cowdrey is quoted by acquaintances as having actually denied the Book of Mormon. His return to the church seemed to be motivated by something other than faith. It’s also possible he was trying to protect his name at the end of his life by testifying of the Book of Mormon. Pratt seemed to enjoy the notoriety and plural wives he received from Mormonism. He was shot stealing a wife from a man in Arkansas. The character of all of these people is extremely suspect and you wonder why they wouldn’t tell the truth? You have to be deceiving yourself if you believe these people were trustworthy. The historical record doesn’t confirm that at all.

Your whole post is speculation from second hand sources. Now if you have something in writing from Oliver himself where he denied the book of mormon that may be worth something.

Most of the witnesses could have made a small fortune by denying their story about the book of mormon and exposing the fraud. David Whitmer could have made quite a bit of money on the speaking circuit or even a book deal. Likewise for the other witnesses and sidney too. America has not changed that much… where a buck can be made it will be made and a scandal can be worth a small fortune.

The character of these people are not suspect at all. However, to discredit mormonism, their characters are scourged by antimormons. But a reading of David Whitmer shows him to be a good person and highly respected. And Emma did fine as a human being after her husband died and during the time when JS was alive.

 

[why_me]

I don’t know of any good reason to believe Joseph Smith did much but serve as front man for the Book of Mormon. The “translation” was all just show.

And yet, he gave his life as a front man when many the ‘fraudsters’ left the fold. Amazing, truly amazing. And none of the fraudsters ever came clean…amazing.

 

[SamTheMan]

I would say that I am shocked that no Mormons have responded. In fact, even our resident Catholic Mormons have not responded.

I aint no scholar, but if you want a mormon’s reaction to this theory on how the Book of Mormon was written, here you go: The same reaction catholics give atheists when they make the claim people simply wrote the Bible. (shame on you)

 

[BartBurk]

And yet, he gave his life as a front man when many the ‘fraudsters’ left the fold. Amazing, truly amazing. And none of the fraudsters ever came clean…amazing.

Gave his life? He shot two people as they entered his jail cell. He had commanded the Nauvoo Legion to come rescue him at the jail, but they decided it wouldn’t be a good idea. Joseph Smith hardly “gave his life.” He probably figured he would escape in Carthage just as he always had before. His plans failed. Sidney Rigdon and the rest of the crowd tried to pick up the pieces and profit from the fraud they had committed. They failed, but didn’t want to implicate themselves in the fraud. Is that too hard to understand?

I think you make too much of the idea that Rigdon and Cowdrey didn’t expose themselves to ridicule by admitting their fraud. Of course at the same time there is evidence that Cowdrey might have admitted it based on the testimony of close associates. He was required to recant when he joined the Methodist Church in Tiffin, Ohio:

irr.org/MIT/bom-wit-pt2.html

 

[ralphinal]

I aint no scholar, but if you want a mormon’s reaction to this theory on how the Book of Mormon was written, here you go: The same reaction catholics give atheists when they make the claim people simply wrote the Bible. (shame on you)

No need to shame me. This was the longest any thread discussing Mormonism had gone without either a Mormon, a Catholic Mormon, or our resident CathoMormon posting a statement.

People did write the Bible. No Catholic would dispute that. We would say that people wrote it under influence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[cthulhubryan]

I think they’ve left the house at this point … I have to admit I’m a little skeptical of the results of this paper. That’s probably because I don’t understand exactly what the study studied.

Yeah! A chance to use those linguistic anthropology classes!!!

What the study studied was the items that make up authorship:
Tone, Pace, Vocabulary Selection, Mode(Style and type of Work), and patterns of repetition and length.

If you were translating an ancient work written by individual(s) from the same culture then you would expect it to show as essentially one author as most of the authorship would have been very similar as all the authors would be of a similar educational, cultural and religious upbringing.

You also expect to find differences between different translations as different translators will have various “styles” of translation (For an excellent example of this, compare the Feagles versus the Fitzgerald translations of Homer’s The Illiad)

Since the premise of the background of the BoM is that it was either written by one person (Mormon) or by several (The individual authors of the works) that are all from the same culture which didn’t major changes in their culture or vocabulary (There was no Columbus arriving for example) then you would expect the authorship style to be consistent as only JSJ was translating it via the Urim and Thummim.

Since the linguistic analysis shows multiple authors, regardless of who the authors actually are, this blows out the theory of the BoM being written solely by Mormon.

Since the analysis shows actual modern authors as “contributors” then this blows out the theory of multiple people from a prehistoric culture being the authors.

Therefore with both theories of BoM authorship being invalidated the only possible conclusion is that the BoM has an authorship dating back less than 250 years making it’s claim to be an account of Jesus in the New World clearly false.

This is why the findings of this and similar studies are important.

 

[majick275]

You need to check out the Martin Harris story. He wanted hard proof and he got it. He saw the plates. End of story.

i did. harris was unstable and easily duped. he didn’t see gold plates.

His wife did influence him and this is why he didn’t want to be duped. But he claimed to see the plates and was one of the three witnesses.[/quotes] he also claimed an even greater testimony of teh shakers…you keep overlooking that.
why me;4533692:

Emma lost a child due to a mob beating of JS during a chilled night. The child died due to complications with exposure. But yes, the child was sick also.

so the child died of measles. the “mob” was made up of mormons who were angry at JS womanizing

Emma eventually returned to Nauvoo and lived there for the rest of her life. But she was not rich. The lds church gave her some property but it was small consolation for the loss of her husband.

the LDS church didn’t give her anything. she won quite a lot of property in court. she was a lot wealthier than she would have been without JS scam. and she managed to start another church still using the BoM.

When one is angry with another human being and decide to break off relations with that human being and yet, see that human being prosper from a religious fraud that you may have instigated with that person, it becomes only natural to expose that fraud and become a hero to all protestant denominations.

unless you think you can still profit from the same fraud.

Or you can sit and seethed with anger as you watch that person still being successful in the fraud. Most people would expose the fraud. In this case, we have 11 witnesses to the book of mormon, plus Sidney Rigdon who kept their mouths shut. Truly amazing.

unless you think you can still profit yourself. you might also plot their downfall and try to takeover yourself. like rigdon did.

 

[majick275]

Your whole post is speculation from second hand sources. Now if you have something in writing from Oliver himself where he denied the book of mormon that may be worth something. //quote] oliver was in on it and ended up having to crawl back
why me;4538307:

Most of the witnesses could have made a small fortune by denying their story about the book of mormon and exposing the fraud.

how? no none would have paid for that.

David Whitmer could have made quite a bit of money on the speaking circuit or even a book deal.

which is exactly what he did. trying tot preach JS as a fallen prophet and himself as the true gaurdian of mormonism. times then weren’t like now. you didn’t make much on the “speaking circuit” or on book deals. there was no oprah.

Likewise for the other witnesses and sidney too. America has not changed that much… where a buck can be made it will be made and a scandal can be worth a small fortune.

it’s changed quite a bit. the media wasn’t big money then. no paparazzi ro people magazine. these guys were all trying to coopt eh scam for their own benefit.

The character of these people are not suspect at all. However, to discredit mormonism, their characters are scourged by antimormons. But a reading of David Whitmer shows him to be a good person and highly respected. And Emma did fine as a human being after her husband died and during the time when JS was alive.

their shady character is a matter of public record. whitmer was an unstable fool who claimed a number of churches were “true”. Emma was disgraceful. anything for a buck even if it meant she had to accept JS numerous affairs.

 

[majick275]

And yet, he gave his life as a front man when many the ‘fraudsters’ left the fold. Amazing, truly amazing. And none of the fraudsters ever came clean…amazing.

at best that puts in teh same boat as jim jones and david koresh…amazing

 

[BartBurk]

Yeah! A chance to use those linguistic anthropology classes!!!

What the study studied was the items that make up authorship:
Tone, Pace, Vocabulary Selection, Mode(Style and type of Work), and patterns of repetition and length.

If you were translating an ancient work written by individual(s) from the same culture then you would expect it to show as essentially one author as most of the authorship would have been very similar as all the authors would be of a similar educational, cultural and religious upbringing.

You also expect to find differences between different translations as different translators will have various “styles” of translation (For an excellent example of this, compare the Feagles versus the Fitzgerald translations of Homer’s The Illiad)

Since the premise of the background of the BoM is that it was either written by one person (Mormon) or by several (The individual authors of the works) that are all from the same culture which didn’t major changes in their culture or vocabulary (There was no Columbus arriving for example) then you would expect the authorship style to be consistent as only JSJ was translating it via the Urim and Thummim.

Since the linguistic analysis shows multiple authors, regardless of who the authors actually are, this blows out the theory of the BoM being written solely by Mormon.

Since the analysis shows actual modern authors as “contributors” then this blows out the theory of multiple people from a prehistoric culture being the authors.

Therefore with both theories of BoM authorship being invalidated the only possible conclusion is that the BoM has an authorship dating back less than 250 years making it’s claim to be an account of Jesus in the New World clearly false.

This is why the findings of this and similar studies are important.

Thank you for your analysis. Originally, I was not sure this study really proved much. I now think it needs to be taken seriously. It will be interesting to see if Mormon scholars try to dispute this research with testing of their own or if they just ignore it. I do think it is now a slam dunk that Rigdon, Spalding, and Cowdrey were the most influential Book of Mormon authors. Spalding probably would be shocked to know that his work was used to help invent the Mormon religion. 19th century Mormons were some of the most dishonest folks who ever walked the earth. It is too bad their 20th and 21st century followers haven’t become honest either.

 

[SamTheMan]

People did write the Bible. No Catholic would dispute that. We would say that people wrote it under influence of the Holy Spirit.

Did I misspeak? This was in response to a theory that a group of people got together and just wrote the Book of Mormon. You clearly knew what I meant. And Mormons believe the Book of Mormon was also written by inspired men (ancient ones, then translated by a later prophet).

Basically my point was 1.) Catholics are under the same acusation as catholis are giving the mormons, except ironically by the atheists. And 2.) If the Book of Mormon could just be written, then the only thing you’ve proven is that the Bible could have been written by your own “Sydney Rigdon” too.

 

[ralphinal]

Did I misspeak? This was in response to a theory that a group of people got together and just wrote the Book of Mormon. You clearly knew what I meant. And Mormons believe the Book of Mormon was also written by inspired men (ancient ones, then translated by a later prophet).

Basically my point was 1.) Catholics are under the same acusation as catholis are giving the mormons, except ironically by the atheists. And 2.) If the Book of Mormon could just be written, then the only thing you’ve proven is that the Bible could have been written by your own “Sydney Rigdon” too.

Yes and no. The problem with any sort of accusation along the same lines is one of time.

You can prove that books from the Bible were written centuries ago, using the same techniques. You can also prove that different men wrote them. It is also possible using history to establish a rough time line of when each work was written. Simply put, all of the NT was there by 200 AD and all of the OT was there by 1 AD.

The BoM does not have history on its side. You cannot show when it was lost or when it was used before. Using these techniques, it appears that the BoM was written a couple hundred years ago by a handful of men, not tousands of years ago by one man.

Atheists cannot prove that the Bible was not written tousands of years ago. All that they can claim is that there was no God involved or that the stories are false.