New Study: Native Americans all descend from a single ancesteral group

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Yes, and personal attack is a common tactic among Mormons, passive aggressive as they may be.
You’ve lost me on this one.
You were not originally speaking of commonalities, you were speaking of converting Christians away from Christianity. This, I know, is why Mormons come here. You are proselyting.
I don’t think I was speaking about that. As part of the stream of our dialogue together, I was commenting that some non-Mormon Christians do hope that the Book of Mormon is true and some even eventually find out that it is true and join the Mormon church. As far as speaking on commonalities, it is true that I wasn’t originally speaking about that, but I was only responding to your post about the lack of commonalities you saw. My life experience has been different and so I wanted to describe that I’ve seen many things in common and in my experience so have other Christians.

I don’t know why all Mormons come here, but, as I stated in another thread, one of my main reasons for posting is to help clarify misunderstandings and misconceptions that people have about the Mormon religion. I also come here to take part in dialogue with people about religion in general. And, lastly, I enjoy pleasant debates and discussions and find it intellectually stimulating.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but I’m getting the impression that I’ve somehow offended you. Although I cannot clearly see how, I wouldn’t put it past me. I have trouble communicating things clearly sometimes, so it wouldn’t surprise me that I’ve fumbled up once again. I’m so sorry if I did. 😦

Kind Regards,
Finrock
 
And then we have this:

John M. Butler

Recent claims concerning the supposed absence
of DNA evidence in support of the
Book of Mormon have caused me to investigate
more closely what the record itself has to say on
the topic. The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineage
of Nephi’s children (and of Laman’s offspring)
would come through Ishmael’s wife since the four
oldest sons of Lehi as well as Zoram married the five
daughters of Ishmael (see 1 Nephi 16:7). Unfortunately,
Ishmael’s wife is of unknown background
and heritage. In fact, she is mentioned only twice in
the Book of Mormon (see 1 Nephi 7:6, 19) and may
have died before Ishmael since she is not mentioned
as a mourner when Ishmael dies at Nahom (see 1
Nephi 16:34–35). Perhaps the historical information
in the large plates of Nephi, or even the 116 pages
translated in 1828 and lost by Martin Harris, could
shed some light on Ishmael’s wife’s background if
only we had access to them.
The wives of Ishmael’s two sons (see 1 Nephi 7:6)
would also potentially introduce additional mtDNA
lineages into the Nephite and Lamanite descendants,
as would Nephi’s sisters (see 2 Nephi 5:6). But, again,
the Book of Mormon record is silent regarding their
backgrounds. Thus, we are left without enough information
from the Book of Mormon record itself
to identify definitively an appropriate genetic source
population that could be used to calibrate the claims
of the Book of Mormon. Likewise, we do not have
sufficient information to declare the Book of
Mormon not true.
While Lehi’s direct male offspring would possess
a copy of his Y chromosome, it is unclear whether
or not these offspring would also have Manasseh,
Joseph, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham in their patrilineage,
because Lehi is listed only as “a descendant of
Manasseh” in Alma 10:3. Lehi could meet the definition
of a descendant of Manasseh from a large number
of genealogical lineages without being in the direct
patrilineal line and possessing an Abrahamic Y
chromosome. In addition, the fact that Mormon
uses the phrase pure descendant of Lehi to describe
himself in 3 Nephi 5:20 would seem to indicate that
Lehi’s lineage was a rare one in Mormon’s day.
Interestingly absent from the critics’ contentions
is mention of the Jaredites. The Jaredite nation existed
for more than 1,500 years before the Lehites
arrived in the promised land. This group spanned at
least 29 generations (see Ether 1:6–33) with combinations
of marriages between people whose background
we know virtually nothing about. The
Jaredites most likely traveled from central Asia to
northeast Asia and then via barges to the New World
(see Hugh Nibley, Lehi in the Desert; The World of
the Jaredites; There Were Jaredites [1988], 181–82).
Genetically, their path of travel would have seemed
much like land passage across the Bering Strait if
others along that route joined them and Asian
bloodlines entered their group as they traveled. After
arriving in the New World, the Jaredite people had
hundreds of years to grow and spread across parts of
the continent, perhaps encountering and intermarrying
with other groups of unknown origin.
We usually think of the Jaredite nation as being
completely annihilated in the final battle between
the armies of Coriantumr and Shiz (see Ether 15).
However, the prophecy of Ether states that all of
Coriantumr’s household would be destroyed if he did
not repent (see Ether 13:20–21), which does not
necessarily mean all of the descendants of the original
Jaredite colonization party. It is entirely conceivable
that one or more groups had broken away from
A FEW THOUGHTS FROM A
BELIEVING DNA SCIENTIST
John M. Butler
the main Jaredite colony and survived outside of the
record describing the downfall of the Coriantumr
and Shiz camps. In fact, Hugh Nibley has argued for
some kind of interaction and influence between the
Jaredite and Lehite groups because of the continuance
of such Jaredite names as Korihor (see Alma
30; Ether 7:3) and Coriantumr (see Helaman 1:15)
in Nephite times (see Nibley, Lehi in the Desert; The
World of the Jaredites; There Were Jaredites, 245).
While it is possible to speculate endlessly about scenarios
that would make Book of Mormon story
lines compatible with current DNA evidence, the
record itself is simply not descriptive enough to
provide definitive calibration points with which to
make confident scientific conclusions.
Thus, we are left where we started (and where I
believe the Lord intended us to be)—in the realm of
faith. A spiritual witness is the only way to know the
truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Although DNA
studies have made links between Native Americans
and Asians, these studies in no way invalidate the Book
of Mormon despite the loud voices of detractors. !

fairlds.org/pubs/Butler_DNA.pdf
 
My own personal reaction to your posts, whyme: :sleep: Same as my reaction to reading the BOM. When one really decides to read the BOM, it takes something like translating it into plain English in order to fully understand how accurate it is, and that it contains condemnations of the very belief system that Mormons think it supports.

and Rigdon-Spalding is very alive.
 
Yes, and personal attack is a common tactic among Mormons, passive aggressive as they may be.

You were not originally speaking of commonalities, you were speaking of converting Christians away from Christianity. This, I know, is why Mormons come here. You are proselyting.
I didn’t see any personal attack there. I did see a statement of fact.

…and I’ve not seen many Mormons who come here to convert/proselyte. We come here to defend against attack. It is ironic that those who begin threads with the specific intent to disparage, belittle and criticize another faith get upset when members of that other faith object, enter the discussion and call them on their misstatements, character assassination, insults and outright lies…and then accuse those defenders of 'coming in to proselyte."

Actually, (and take me as an example) for the vast majority of us, if no inaccurate mean spirited attacks were made against our beliefs here, you wouldn’t see me here at all.

Cet animal est très méchant: quand on l’attaque il se defend.
 
:clapping: LOL Welcome to the debate. They have no idea how racist they are, and the unutterable gall they have, in telling who they think we are. :rolleyes:
Jerusha, with all due respect, I got no feeling that anything said in this thread was racist, nor that anyone here was/is/will be racist. 🙂 I have seen some “good god-fearing Christians” who were the most vile racists and bigots. Some of them even being “Catholic.” Each group has all types. :o

What I see here in this thread is a very desperate attempt at Mormons to try and show some plausibility to back up their history. It’s not working. (ParkerD, if you’re reading this, I do still intend to read the thread AND the study.)

This part of my post:
…terms made up of Euro-centric people when they came over and “discovered” the Nuhuatl, who, I am sure, did not realize they were lost. 😉
Is actually referencing this notion taught by Americans to Americans that the Americas were “discovered” – all by Europeans who feel they made it “better.” Pretty much implying that the current populace was “lost.” There had been a de-humanizing campaign that the locals were “barbarians” and “primitive” in order to justify genocide and taking over their lands. The Aztec, Mayan, Incan, and pretty much the “Native American” Indians have virtually been wiped out. There is great evidence that their culture was vibrant, even equality in mandatory education, with great mathematicians and astronomers than even BEFORE the Greeks. Many Americans grow up thinking there was nothing here until it was “discovered” and “settled” by people on the Mayflower.

There’s a tendency to dismiss the culture and people who were already here when these continents were “discovered” - because if we truly acknowledge it, then we would see the Euro-Imperialist expansion for what it was: wrong.

So, my comment was more along the lines of saying, “How can you ‘discover’ people or lands that weren’t lost? They were doing JUST FINE!”

At anyrate, that is not what this thread is about. This thread is about the DNA found in the populace that seems to be found in people whose ancestors are from here alone, that shows a single wave of migration, rather than the previous thought of multiple waves of migration.

BTW, I am American. I was born here, grew up here, and live here. So I’m not “anti-American.”
 
It is ironic that those who begin threads with the specific intent to disparage, belittle and criticize another faith get upset when members of that other faith object, enter the discussion and call them on their misstatements, character assassination, insults and outright lies…and then accuse those defenders of 'coming in to proselyte."
Actually, no, it’s not ironic. This IS a Catholic site. I wonder if Catholics go to protestant, JW, or Mormon faith discussions to “defend their faith” they’d be locked out of the forum so fast they’d have no time to yell, “Censorship!”

Don’t forget where you are. You may be here “defending” against what you perceive to be as attacks, but we see it as you evangelizing. Because it is.
 
As a matter of fact, in my experience, only the most polemical critics who, for one reason or another, have let hate take over their lives, do not find anything in the Mormon church that they desire, respect, or agree with.
I didn’t see any personal attack there. I did see a statement of fact.
It seems to me Finrock has come to the conclusion that if a person finds Mormonism lacking in any virtues, they have let hate take over their lives. A personal attack against whoever he is speaking of, without whoever it is here to defend themselves.
 
When one really decides to read the BOM, it takes something like translating it into plain English in order to fully understand how accurate it is, and that it contains condemnations of the very belief system that Mormons think it supports.

and Rigdon-Spalding is very alive.
Hi Jerusha! Good afternoon to you. I hope you are doing well today. 🙂

I’ve heard this sentiment before. If I may, I’d like to just clarify that everything in the Book of Mormon supports Mormon doctrine. This is the case because we believe the Book of Mormon to truly be scripture and it is a part of our canon of scripture.

“In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the canonical books are called the standard works and include the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price” (lds.org).

For the most part, people recognize this, I believe. However, sometimes I think the confusion enters in to the picture because the Book of Mormon doesn’t contain all of our doctrine (note, this should not be confused with it containing the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ). Of course, because the Book of Mormon doesn’t contain all Mormon doctrine, it doesn’t mean that what is in the Book of Mormon isn’t Mormon doctrine.

Thanks for your comments. I love having the opportunity to clarify misunderstandings. Hopefully this post was helpful to you and to anyone else who may have understood things the same way as you.

Kind Regards,
Finrock
 
Is actually referencing this notion taught by Americans to Americans that the Americas were “discovered” – all by Europeans who feel they made it “better.” Pretty much implying that the current populace was “lost.” There had been a de-humanizing campaign that the locals were “barbarians” and “primitive” in order to justify genocide and taking over their lands. The Aztec, Mayan, Incan, and pretty much the “Native American” Indians have virtually been wiped out. There is great evidence that their culture was vibrant, even equality in mandatory education, with great mathematicians and astronomers than even BEFORE the Greeks. Many Americans grow up thinking there was nothing here until it was “discovered” and “settled” by people on the Mayflower.

There’s a tendency to dismiss the culture and people who were already here when these continents were “discovered” - because if we truly acknowledge it, then we would see the Euro-Imperialist expansion for what it was: wrong.
The BoM arose out this way of thinking. The evidence for a thriving civilization was all around the people living on the east coast of the US. The BoM brings an explanation that it was righteous, Jewish immigrants who were responsible for these civilizations. The unrighteous among this group grew dark, lazy and loathsome and eventually destroyed the righteous, white, civilizations. Leaving nothing but dark, lazy and loathsome people for the Europeans to “discover”.

The DNA evidence, along with anthropological evidence, shows this was nothing but a product of the era from which it was arose. Some of the product included the racism of the time. Mormons today have toned it down. Which, is good. 🙂
 
koff Had I been drinking, I’d have spit it out. 😛

I read that and all I could think of was an actual comment I’ve heard while living in southern California: “Those lazy Messicans. All they do is come over and take our jobs!” :eek:

ETA:

BTW, if you study the pictures, the “self righteous” people are walking upright, clothed, and white. While the “cursed” are dark, half naked, and crouched over. No, there’s no subtle message going on there.

Also, Rebecca, your post reminded me of the inherent racism that Mormonism espouses. Although, that’s not to say that “modern day” modern day Mormons are racists in and of themselves individually.
 
The BoM arose out this way of thinking. The evidence for a thriving civilization was all around the people living on the east coast of the US. The BoM brings an explanation that it was righteous, Jewish immigrants who were responsible for these civilizations. The unrighteous among this group grew dark, lazy and loathsome and eventually destroyed the righteous, white, civilizations. Leaving nothing but dark, lazy and loathsome people for the Europeans to “discover”.

The DNA evidence, along with anthropological evidence, shows this was nothing but a product of the era from which it was arose. Some of the product included the racism of the time. Mormons today have toned it down. Which, is good. 🙂
Rebecca, 😉
I disagree. One could infer part of what you said, except for the fact that none of the people in the Book of Mormon were Jewish. The Book of Mormon states clearly that the Lamanite remnants would be scattered and have many wars such that they would almost be wiped out entirely. By whom would that be? By other people, of course! The Book of Mormon says nothing about who those other people would be. I think you have misread the text. (So have many others–you’re not alone.)

Have a wonderful day in this beautiful weather, and a great weekend and Sabbath.
 
koff Had I been drinking, I’d have spit it out. 😛

I read that and all I could think of was an actual comment I’ve heard while living in southern California: “Those lazy Messicans. All they do is come over and take our jobs!” :eek:
I grew up being taught this stuff. I like this picture. An evil “Lamanite” who wears a loincloth that is made of what? And a Mideastern head covering. 😛

http://www.lds.org/images/Manuals/tchg-pix.nfo:o:ada.jpg
BTW, if you study the pictures, the “self righteous” people are walking upright, clothed, and white. While the “cursed” are dark, half naked, and crouched over. No, there’s no subtle message going on there.
That is part of the story. The Lamanites refuse to wear clothing. It’s there, in the BoM.
Also, Rebecca, your post reminded me of the inherent racism that Mormonism espouses. Although, that’s not to say that “modern day” modern day Mormons are racists in and of themselves individually.
Yeah, I think this is what Jerusha was referring to in her post.
 
Rebecca, 😉
I disagree. One could infer part of what you said, except for the fact that none of the people in the Book of Mormon were Jewish. The Book of Mormon states clearly that the Lamanite remnants would be scattered and have many wars such that they would almost be wiped out entirely. By whom would that be? By other people, of course! The Book of Mormon says nothing about who those other people would be. I think you have misread the text. (So have many others–you’re not alone.)

Have a wonderful day in this beautiful weather, and a great weekend and Sabbath.
Well Parker, I was trying to be nice. Replace the word Jewish with “white”.

I have not misread the text.
 
koff Had I been drinking, I’d have spit it out. 😛

I read that and all I could think of was an actual comment I’ve heard while living in southern California: “Those lazy Messicans. All they do is come over and take our jobs!” :eek:

ETA:

BTW, if you study the pictures, the “self righteous” people are walking upright, clothed, and white. While the “cursed” are dark, half naked, and crouched over. No, there’s no subtle message going on there.

Also, Rebecca, your post reminded me of the inherent racism that Mormonism espouses. Although, that’s not to say that “modern day” modern day Mormons are racists in and of themselves individually.
Gracious and Rebecca,
Thank you for expressing your honest reactions to those pictures, which I find offensive also. I don’t spend time looking at such things, but now that it’s been brought up, I would like to ask your permission to include a copy of this dialogue in an email I would like to write to the LDS curriculum staff and committee members, because I think those pictures and captions are misrepesentative of the story and certainly of the message of the Book of Mormon.

Please let me know if that is OK with you. If not, I could just leave out your pseudonyms obviously and pass it on anyway, but by leaving in the dialogue as is, it becomes more “authentic.”

Thanks, and have a good day and I apologize for whoever developed those scenes.
 
I have by now read three of the four full studies, and wanted to point out by way of clarification, that one study sets the time frame parameters for the origination population as 2,000 BC - 40,000 BC.
Could you list the study names, at least? When I read the UC Davis article, it mentions only one study that was published in the Molecular Biology and Evolution journal.

And, quite frankly, once I signed on to the site, I found out that the “pay per view” for each article was $36 per DAY. To be honest, I don’t feel like paying that. But I’m glad you did.

As I have mentioned in a previous post, to which you responded that I “should” read the whole thread because you apparently didn’t like my answer, you sound very much like those who wish to disprove something because you do not like the results. I still hold by this answer.

As a computer programmer and scientist, I have come across situations where an algorithm is presented and someone comes in with one of those possible situations that could throw the whole algorithm into question. It doesn’t make the whole algorithm null nor invalid.

As with anything, criminal cases, scientific studies, etc. etc. Evidence is gathered for or against a conclusion. So far, with pretty much many scientific studies, evidence can be gathered to disprove the BoM. It is generally not done to point to “possibilities” and how a situation “may” occur from a study that the study did not, well, study, as evidence to prove your case. i.e. You cannot point to the donut hole and say, “Well, since there is nothing there what could have been there is what I say was there.”

What if, simply, there just wasn’t anything there to begin with? And that is what I am saying regarding trying to use this article to “plausibly” explain the beginnings of Mormonism and the “Ancient Americas.”

It was a good try on your part, though. “A” for effort, but not correctness.
 
Gracious and Rebecca,
Thank you for expressing your honest reactions to those pictures, which I find offensive also. I don’t spend time looking at such things, but now that it’s been brought up, I would like to ask your permission to include a copy of this dialogue in an email I would like to write to the LDS curriculum staff and committee members, because I think those pictures and captions are misrepesentative of the story and certainly of the message of the Book of Mormon.

Please let me know if that is OK with you. If not, I could just leave out your pseudonyms obviously and pass it on anyway, but by leaving in the dialogue as is, it becomes more “authentic.”

Thanks, and have a good day and I apologize for whoever developed those scenes.
First, no, I’d rather you not. Of course, I cannot stop whatever it is that you do.

It needs to be shown that Mormonism has a racist history. Anything of or from God, the Son, or the Holy Spirit does not include hatred for the physical differences in people, whom God created. It is like trying to rewrite history. It is also like trying to rewrite what Mormonism is.

I guess, however, when you have a false religion, it can, and will be, rewritten to suit the people’s needs, rather than God’s will. I offer up the idea of polygamy as but one example.

Secondly, YOU don’t personally need to apologize. What I would suggest is that you reflect (don’t answer me) for yourself on whether you appreciate or even like being associated with what is clearly a racist religion. It is a well known fact that Mormonism has a racist past. This needs to be acknowledged. Once acknowledged, we can move forward towards awareness and healing.

I suggest, again, to reflect on whether you wish to consider being a part of a sect that cannot be a rock or a cornerstone of your faith, since that supposed “rock” will shift with the current times.

I may not have always gone to church, nor practiced Catholicism, but one thing I always knew for sure was that it was the One True Church founded by our Lord Jesus Christ - since it has certainly been the rock and cornerstone of society, neither swaying nor bending to the will of the “current times.”
 
First, no, I’d rather you not. Of course, I cannot stop whatever it is that you do.

It needs to be shown that Mormonism has a racist history. Anything of or from God, the Son, or the Holy Spirit does not include hatred for the physical differences in people, whom God created. It is like trying to rewrite history. It is also like trying to rewrite what Mormonism is.
Let that church without sin cast the first stone. Catholicism has an anti-semitic past. And even to this day, many jews have not forgotten the anti-semitism. Also, if you check just how catholicism was spread across the globe, you will see that it wasn’t always so peaceful. All churches have skeletons in their closet because churches are made of men and women who are far from perfect.
 
And did you know that most Christians would see right through the defects of Mormon claims? Mormonism has nothing that a Christian should want or desire. If a Christian is seeking a deeper understanding of Christ, they should prayerfully look to Christian belief and understanding. Not to the errors of Mormonism.
And an atheist would see clear through the claims of all christian churches. Just ask Richard Dawkins. What does mormonism have that a christian should desire: a clean lifestyle where the body is looked upon as a temple and not as an amusement park. What else? Well for starters, a moral life with God at its center. A life of prayer to heavenly father in the name of Jesus Christ before each meal and in the morning as a family and in the evening as a family with prayers to heavenly father. .

What else: a daily reading of the scriptures. Such is what a mormon lifestyle can give to protestants and catholics, if they would copy it.
 
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