New Study: Native Americans all descend from a single ancesteral group

[why_me]

Yes, and personal attack is a common tactic among Mormons, passive aggressive as they may be.

You know Rebecca, this made me laugh a little. I have seen personal attacks against mormonism by you from the very beginning. In fact, you can be pretty mean spirited. I would not call the kettle black if the pot making the claim has its own black spots. In fact, I see nothing but personal attacks by some catholics here. I sense hatred in fact. And such hatred as no place in a christian life. But you know that already.

 

[why_me]

:clapping: LOL Welcome to the debate. They have no idea how racist they are, and the unutterable gall they have, in telling who they think we are.

Yes, that is right, mormons are racist. But catholics…no they are not racist. Some of the most racist people I have known have been Irish-American catholics. Lets face it, american catholics were pretty racist toward african ameicans. But then again, the protestants were rather racist toward catholics. Hmmmm…what to do with imperfect humans. And christians in general both protestant and catholic treated the native american terribly.We humans are a strange lot, aren’t we?

 

[GodIsGracious]

Gracious and Rebecca,
Thank you for expressing your honest reactions to those pictures, which I find offensive also. I don’t spend time looking at such things, but now that it’s been brought up, I would like to ask your permission to include a copy of this dialogue in an email I would like to write to the LDS curriculum staff and committee members, because I think those pictures and captions are misrepesentative of the story and certainly of the message of the Book of Mormon.

Please let me know if that is OK with you. If not, I could just leave out your pseudonyms obviously and pass it on anyway, but by leaving in the dialogue as is, it becomes more “authentic.”

Thanks, and have a good day and I apologize for whoever developed those scenes.

There was something about this request that was bothering me. I could not put my finger on it until I reflected on it further. It is important enough that I want to post although it has nothing to do with the original topic.

When you look at this request, on the surface it is being requested rather politely. I answered based upon that initial look at the request, as a surface answer.

However, when you look at what the request is about, you realize that the request is not polite.

ParkerD, you are asking Catholics to help you in promoting what we believe to be heresy. For us to agree to allow you to use our comments to help further Mormonism will be for us to agree to help others commit heresy and be in apostasy.

As Christians, Catholics pray to God to “deliver us from evil and lead us not into temptation.” We know God will not lead us astray. You are asking us to commit heresy. IMO, your request, albeit asked rather kindly and politely, is not God centered. He would not have us commit heresy.

Please, as a request, do not ask a Catholic to commit heresy. You will have to answer to God for that.

Next, I am specifically stating that you may not use my comments (quoted or paraphrased) or observations regarding the Mormon pictures to help aid your LDS curriculum staff and committee develop Mormon materials that will further the Mormon church. To do so on your part will be to go against my stated wishes and to further commit heresy.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Let that church without sin cast the first stone. Catholicism has an anti-semitic past. And even to this day, many jews have not forgotten the anti-semitism. Also, if you check just how catholicism was spread across the globe, you will see that it wasn’t always so peaceful. All churches have skeletons in their closet because churches are made of men and women who are far from perfect.

I was very specific: I said PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES, i.e. man as God made in His image. I used my words carefully. I am not talking about different beliefs.

Two very distinct things.

 

[why_me]

If the study says that there is NO evidence of Middle Eastern/Semetic DNA in Native Americans, there is a problem for Mormons.

There is no problem at all.

fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/DNA_and_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/DNA_and_the_Book_of_Mormon_2.html

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_and_DNA_evidence

The mormons are addressing these issues. Now lets be honest here. If there were Hebrew DNA found among the indians, how many here would remain catholic?? Not many. Also, such a find, would more or less verify the existence of god. And we all know that that is never going to happen. It is all about faith.

 

[why_me]

If the study says that there is NO evidence of Middle Eastern/Semetic DNA in Native Americans, there is a problem for Mormons.

If the study says that MOST of the genetic code comes from one line, there is no problem, unless they hold to the statement that that line is entirely from a Tribe of Israel

I was very specific: I said PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES, i.e. man as God made in His image. I used my words carefully. I am not talking about different beliefs.

Two very distinct things.

Hardly. The catholic church was harsh toward the jews because they killed Christ. And such an attitude is still within the jewish mindset. Mel Gibson’s Passion film was about to bring up old wounds. But it didn’t. I do believe that the pope has apologized to Jews for the past…But still racism was a problem in the catholic church.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Hardly. The catholic church was harsh toward the jews because they killed Christ. And such an attitude is still within the jewish mindset. Mel Gibson’s Passion film was about to bring up old wounds. But it didn’t. I do believe that the pope has apologized to Jews for the past…But still racism was a problem in the catholic church.

It is not “hardly.” I made a distinction, you refuse to see it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Next, I am specifically stating that you may not use my comments (quoted or paraphrased) or observations regarding the Mormon pictures to help aid your LDS curriculum staff and committee develop Mormon materials that will further the Mormon church. To do so on your part will be to go against my stated wishes and to further commit heresy.

Same here.

 

[Finrock]

It seems to me Finrock has come to the conclusion that if a person finds Mormonism lacking in any virtues, they have let hate take over their lives. A personal attack against whoever he is speaking of, without whoever it is here to defend themselves.

Good evening RebeccaJ! I hope you’ve had a good day.

Now that I see how you understood my comments, I think I understand why you made your “personal attack” comments. However, I didn’t exactly say what you’ve stated above and that is not my conclusion. As a matter of fact, I said something very different. Actually what I stated is that I have only ever witnessed (and this very rarely, as in maybe two or three times) people who were very obviously filled with hate (the fruits being cursing, anger, threatening, desiring to do emotional and bodily harm…I’m talking any reasonable person would agree that this was a demonstration of hate), and because of their hate they couldn’t see anything good in Mormonism. There may be people who aren’t hate filled who don’t see anything good in Mormonism, I don’t know, I just haven’t come across anyone like that. You seemed to have flipped my statement around to make it sound like I had said because someone couldn’t see anything good in Mormonism, therefore they were filled with hate. I didn’t say that at all! That’s faulty reasoning, and I simply don’t subscribe to that way of thinking. Hopefully, you can now see the difference between what I said and what you understood that I said.

Be well, RebeccaJ!

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[ParkerD]

Same here.

Glad we understand each other on that particular issue. I certainly won’t use the dialog, nor your names, when I write the email about the topic.

 

[Finrock]

The BoM arose out this way of thinking. The evidence for a thriving civilization was all around the people living on the east coast of the US. The BoM brings an explanation that it was righteous, Jewish immigrants who were responsible for these civilizations. The unrighteous among this group grew dark, lazy and loathsome and eventually destroyed the righteous, white, civilizations. Leaving nothing but dark, lazy and loathsome people for the Europeans to “discover”.

The DNA evidence, along with anthropological evidence, shows this was nothing but a product of the era from which it was arose. Some of the product included the racism of the time. Mormons today have toned it down. Which, is good.

I’d like to respond to this, hopefully to clarify a relatively common misunderstanding about the Book fo Mormon. Of course, the best way to clarify anything concerning the Book of Mormon is the to read it, but hopefully this post will be helpful in some small way.

The Book of Mormon’s portrayal of the Native Americans was actually very different from what people living on the east coast commonly believed in Joseph Smith’s time. Until the discovery of Mayan ruins several years after the Book of Mormon had been published, the common understanding of the Native Americans was that they were brutish, not civilized, etc. The Book of Mormon spoke of the ancient inhabitants of this land as a blessed people, highly civilized, intelligent, etc. In fact, a common criticism in the beginning against the Book of Mormon was that it described the ancient inhabitants of the Americas as civilized and, worse yet as far as the critics were concered, as a blessed people who were entitled to the same blessings as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! The only time the Book of Mormon speaks out against a people being wild and blood thirsty, is when they’ve forsaken God. This had nothing to do with the color of their skin, but rather with their actions and traditions. The Nephites, who are generally described as fair skinned, where at times more wicked than the Lamanites ever had been. Furthermore, the Book of Mormon on several occasions describes the Lamanites as being far more righteous than the Nephites ever had been. Far from being a racist book, the Book of Mormon demonstrates more clearly than any other scripture I have read that it isn’t the color of your skin that matters, but how you conduct your life, and whether or not you are obedient to God, that matters.

Thanks, again, for your comments and for providing an opportunity to clarify some generally held misconceptions.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[PaulDupre]

There Were Jaredites [1988], 181–82).
Genetically, their path of travel would have seemed
much like land passage across the Bering Strait if
others along that route joined them and Asian
bloodlines entered their group as they traveled.

Excuse me, but where in the Book of Ether does it say they put into port in Mongolia and picked up additional passengers?

This is the most desperate intellectual dishonesty I have ever seen.

 

[PaulDupre]

I’d like to respond to this, hopefully to clarify a relatively common misunderstanding about the Book fo Mormon. Of course, the best way to clarify anything concerning the Book of Mormon is the to read it, but hopefully this post will be helpful in some small way.

Why do you assume we have not read it? Those of us who are former active Mormons have read it many times.

The Book of Mormon’s portrayal of the Native Americans was actually very different from what people living on the east coast commonly believed in Joseph Smith’s time. Until the discovery of Mayan ruins several years after the Book of Mormon had been published, the common understanding of the Native Americans was that they were brutish, not civilized, etc.

This is absolutely false. The idea that the Native Americans were one or more of the lost tribes of Israel and gradually descended into a primitive state was commonly believed by many people, including Solomon Spalding and Ethan Smith (authors of Manuscript Lost and View of the Hebrews, respectively). The idea of the “Noble Savage” who was once far more civilized than modern man has been a popular notion since Plato’s time.

Far from being a racist book, the Book of Mormon demonstrates more clearly than any other scripture I have read that it isn’t the color of your skin that matters, but how you conduct your life, and whether or not you are obedient to God, that matters.

Oh, so that’s why God chose to curse the Lamanites with a skin of blackness, assuming that that would make them repugnant to the “white and delightsome” Nephites. Of course, in Mormonism black is repugnant and white is delightsome. Simply a product of 19th-century American racism, like the phoney Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses.

By the way, Finrock, how are things there at the MTC?

 

[dianaiad]

Actually, no, it’s not ironic. This IS a Catholic site. I wonder if Catholics go to protestant, JW, or Mormon faith discussions to “defend their faith” they’d be locked out of the forum so fast they’d have no time to yell, “Censorship!”

Don’t forget where you are. You may be here “defending” against what you perceive to be as attacks, but we see it as you evangelizing. Because it is.

THIS is a forum called "non-Catholic religions,’ a smaller area of a larger Catholic site. I don’t know how many non-Catholics read any of the other forums in the larger site, because, well…I don’t go to any other forums in this Catholic site. I would consider it impolite, because they ARE Catholic forums, for the purpose of discussing Catholicism and for fellowshipping.

But what you, specifically, are doing in this small area (non-Catholic religions) is inviting us in–and then attacking us for accepting the invitation.

Sorry, but that’s just rude.

 

[Jerusha]

I’ve heard this sentiment before. If I may, I’d like to just clarify that everything in the Book of Mormon supports Mormon doctrine.

If you say so!!

Yes, Finrock, I had a very wild and crazy day. Some pleasant moments, some unpleasant moments which in retrospect were quite funny. Sort of like the BOM, except a lot more believable.

 

[zaffiroborant]

And an atheist would see clear through the claims of all christian churches. Just ask Richard Dawkins. What does mormonism have that a christian should desire: a clean lifestyle where the body is looked upon as a temple and not as an amusement park. What else? Well for starters, a moral life with God at its center. A life of prayer to heavenly father in the name of Jesus Christ before each meal and in the morning as a family and in the evening as a family with prayers to heavenly father. .

What else: a daily reading of the scriptures. Such is what a mormon lifestyle can give to protestants and catholics, if they would copy it.

Your contempt for all things non lds is showing again.

 

[Finrock]

Good evening PaulDupre! I hope all is well for you.

Why do you assume we have not read it? Those of us who are former active Mormons have read it many times.

I do not assume you have not read it. I have no doubt the former members here have read the Book of Mormon many times. That is wonderful!

This is absolutely false. The idea that the Native Americans were one or more of the lost tribes of Israel and gradually descended into a primitive state was commonly believed by many people, including Solomon Spalding and Ethan Smith (authors of Manuscript Lost and View of the Hebrews, respectively). The idea of the “Noble Savage” who was once far more civilized than modern man has been a popular notion since Plato’s time.

I appreciate how passionate you are about this! I certainly could have made a mistake in my post. I did double check my comments and they are very true. I respect your opinion on the Spaulding theory and View of the Hebrews parallels. I’m not sure how they are relevant to my comments, but if you want to talk about those things instead, that’s fine with me. Although, I don’t have much to say about them other than they aren’t relevant to Mormonism or the Book of Mormon.

Oh, so that’s why God chose to curse the Lamanites with a skin of blackness, assuming that that would make them repugnant to the “white and delightsome” Nephites. Of course, in Mormonism black is repugnant and white is delightsome. Simply a product of 19th-century American racism, like the phoney Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses.

That is a very legitimate concern, and I appreciate you bringing it up. Let’s take a moment and consider the scripture together. I think you’ll see that it doesn’t say quite exactly what your statement says. Here is the scripture:

“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them” (2 Nephi 5:21).

The curse and the mark that Laman and Lemuel received was really that they would be cut off from the Lord forever because of iniquity or spiritual death (see 2 Nephi 1:17). God placed a mark of dark skin upon Laman and Lemuel, “…so that they might not be enticing unto the Lord’s people.” In essence, God didn’t want his people, which is anyone who follows Him, to intermarry with those who did not follow God so that God’s people would not fall in to transgression as the Israelites did when they married the Canaanites despite God commanding them not to (Deut. 7:3-4, Judges 3:1-8).

I’m not sure what you mean by white being delightsome to Mormons and black repugnant, but if by white you mean something that is pure and righteous, then yes, that is delightsome to Mormons. If by black you mean something that is sinful or spiritually dark, then yes that would be repugnant. If, however, you are referring to white and black skin, then there is no general sentiment amongst Mormons that white skin is delightsome and black skin is repugnant.

By the way, Finrock, how are things there at the MTC?

By MTC, do you mean the Missionary Training Center? If so, are you somehow suggesting I’m at the MTC? If you aren’t suggesting that and are simply curious to know how things are at the MTC, then I would have to say that I don’t exactly know, because I haven’t been there in, let’s see, 13 years or so. If I were to guess, however, I would guess that things are very good at the MTC.

Well, thanks for reading and responding to my post. I appreciate the opportunity to clarify misunderstandings and I hope my post has been helpful to you.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[PaulDupre]

I’m not sure what you mean by white being delightsome to Mormons and black repugnant, but if by white you mean something that is pure and righteous, then yes, that is delightsome to Mormons. If by black you mean something that is sinful or spiritually dark, then yes that would be repugnant. If, however, you are referring to white and black skin, then there is no general sentiment amongst Mormons that white skin is delightsome and black skin is repugnant.

Baloney. Mormons are some of the most racially bigotted people I have ever met. The real tragedy is that they are blind to their own bigotry, as they are blind to their own double-think.

 

[Finrock]

Hi Jerusha!

If you say so!!

I definitely do say it. But, not only me, but it’s what the Church says and practices, as a whole. It’s part of our fundamental beliefs that the Book of Mormon is scripture and contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Everything in it is Mormon doctrine.

Yes, Finrock, I had a very wild and crazy day. Some pleasant moments, some unpleasant moments which in retrospect were quite funny. Sort of like the BOM, except a lot more believable.

I hear ya! It’s always good to try and see the bright side of things.

One of the funniest parts of the Book of Mormon for me, for some reason, has always been in Helaman chapter 7, where the prophet Nephi (different from the first Nephi) had gone to a tower to pray because of the wickedness of the people. Because of Nephi’s great sorrow for the iniquities of the people, he was apparently mourning out loud, so this great multitude of people gathered around the tower to see what this weeping and mourning was all about. Finally, Nephi gets done praying. “And now, when Nephi arose he beheld the multitudes of people who had gathered together. And it came to pass that he opened his mouth and said unto them: Behold, why have ye gathered yourselves together? That I may tell you of your iniquities?” Anyways, that always struck me as a bit funny, because I’m sure the people didn’t gather around to hear Nephi tell them of their iniquities. They were probably wondering what this lunatic was doing making all this noise on the tower. I can just picture them in my mind saying amongst themselves, “Nah, actually we just came to be entertained by some crazy guy weeping and mourning on a tower.”

…Well, I think it’s funny…

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Finrock]

Baloney. Mormons are some of the most racially bigotted people I have ever met. The real tragedy is that they are blind to their own bigotry, as they are blind to their own double-think.

Hi PaulDupre! Thanks for reading and responding to my post.

I’m so sorry you’ve come across so many bad Mormons. That is just awful. I’ve met some racist Mormons, for sure, but nowhere on the scale that you seem to have. In my experience, the Mormon people I have met and known have been wonderful people with not an inkling of racism in them. For those Mormons that are blind to their own bigotry, it is a tragedy.

I can tell that this is something that you care very deeply about, and I think that is wonderful.

Kind Regards,
Finrock