"New Testament"= our workbook!

[look3467]

The New Testament gives us a workable guide by which our work may be tested as we by trials and error find solutions to the better work.

Jesus gave us our salvation, we just have to work to iron it out, sort of speak.

We are going to stumble in working it out, but the ultimate goal is that love may be exercised in the working of it.

Lets discuss the merits of this thought?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Church_Militant]

Sorry AJ, try again. I’m not real sure just what you are trying to say. Can you elaborate somewhat?

 

[look3467]

Sorry AJ, try again. I’m not real sure just what you are trying to say. Can you elaborate somewhat?

Salvation has come by Jesus Christ to all mankind.
Thus our works are meaningless as it applies to eternal life.
Thus, given the gift of life, or salvation for the taking.

Based on the salvation given as a gift, there remains no more work for us to do to attain it except to believe and trust in Jesus the giver of life.

Once we accept His gift of salvation, then we must work it out.

Work it out means to learn to live righteously, taking advantage of the guilty sentence set on us been taken away by Jesus.

Now we have to deal with such issues as abortion, Gays, wars, political participation, church members or not, believers or not, different beliefs, different religions, and evil as it appears.

We are no longer under the sentence of eternal death, but are under sentence of our own evil deeds.

The New Testament is a guide in all that we try to understand, and we learn to do the right thing by trial an error.

Take for instance, the female gender participating in church services. The changes the church has been force to make in order to retain members.
The way we understand God verses the way He sees us.

All these things are given to us without penalty of eternal damnation should we stumble at our trying, or our efforts in trying, though we might be wrong some times.

If we can not be motivated by love as demonstrated in the New Testament to live right, do right, then we must again go back to basics until we learn it right.

I know that to some this is new territory of thought, never looked at it that way, but truly, I can say that God’s love towards us has been tarnished by what we think it might be, thus limiting Him and us to love as He loves.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Lev23]

The New Testament gives us a workable guide by which our work may be tested as we by trials and error find solutions to the better work.

Jesus gave us our salvation, we just have to work to iron it out, sort of speak.

We are going to stumble in working it out, but the ultimate goal is that love may be exercised in the working of it.

Lets discuss the merits of this thought?

Peace>>>AJ

"New Testament"=Instructions to go into the Kingdom!

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Hello look,

Salvation has come by Jesus Christ to all mankind.
Thus our works are meaningless as it applies to eternal life.
Thus, given the gift of life, or salvation for the taking.

Based on the salvation given as a gift,** there remains no more work for us to do to attain it **except to believe and trust in Jesus the giver of life.

Once we accept His gift of salvation, then we must work it out.

The bolded lines are a contradiction. Furthermore they also go against what you said in your original post.

Jesus gave us our salvation, **we just have to work **to iron it out, sort of speak.

Going back:

Based on the salvation given as a gift, there remains no more work for us to do to attain it except to** believe **and trust in Jesus the giver of life.

Are believing and trusting in the Lord works? Furthermore, must a believer who trusts in the Lord also repent, or is that not necessary?

Work it out means to learn to live righteously…

Why? You just indicated that we don’t have to live righteously. Only believe and trust.

Now we have to deal with such issues as abortion, Gays, wars, political participation, church members or not, believers or not, different beliefs, different religions, and evil as it appears.

These are not new issues, and the Church will continue to, “deal” with them as it has done throughout its history.

If we can not be motivated by love as demonstrated in the New Testament to live right, do right, then we must again go back to basics until we learn it right.

------>

Thus our works are meaningless…

I know that to some this is new territory of thought, never looked at it that way, but truly, I can say that God’s love towards us has been tarnished by what we think it might be, thus limiting Him and us to love as He loves.

AJ I am with CM on this, what exactly is it that you want to discuss? Your title indicates that you want to talk about the NT being our workbook but then your posts make it seem like you want to discuss Sola Fide.

God bless

 

[look3467]

"New Testament"=Instructions to go into the Kingdom!

Absolutely correct!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

The bolded lines are a contradiction. Furthermore they also go against what you said in your original post.>>>Roman_Catholic

There is no contradiction only on how the word “work” is perceived.

Working it out (Salvation) simply means, one who has it, will work through it to with power from on high to mould or make the body conform to the wishes of the spirit.
Does in no way mean, work for to get salvation, but through salvation, working out our problems with the flesh.

Are believing and trusting in the Lord works? Furthermore, must a believer who trusts in the Lord also repent, or is that not necessary?>>>Roman_Catholic

Repentance really means a change of mind.
From the former things of the world to the present things of God.
By repentance, means that we rather choose to do the things which are pleasing unto God rather than the things which are pleasing unto us.
Without this change of mind, there can be no repentance and no receiving of the blessings of Gods salvation.

Why? You just indicated that we don’t have to live righteously. Only believe and trust.>>>Roman_Catholic

Righteous living is in knowing Gods wishes and desires demonstrated in our daily actions.
These righteous works are Gods works in us, not ours, for it says that Our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved, an on-going action in the present tense as for all eternity.

These are not new issues, and the Church will continue to, “deal” with them as it has done throughout its history.>>>Roman_Catholic

True, the church has being dealing with it for many hundreds of years, but still, the net result should be where love is exercised above all that mankind thinks it should be.

AJ I am with CM on this, what exactly is it that you want to discuss? Your title indicates that you want to talk about the NT being our workbook but then your posts make it seem like you want to discuss Sola Fide.

The Holy Scriptures are our ticket to understanding who God really is and how He deals with us.

All issues are to be worked out with the motive being love, verses the traditions, the rules and the churches constitutions.

If you recall that the Jewish High Priests held on to their traditional teaching, which in light of Jesus’ message was against all their reasoning. Or better put, blinded by them.

The fear is that if we are blinded by our own thinking as to what we think God should and is like towards mankind, that we will judge mankind according to those terms.

But, if we can truly see the Love of God as seen by Him towards mankind, we will deal with our brothers and sisters differently.

Take one issue for instance, of females being equal to men.
How was it perceived in Paul’s time and how is it perceived today?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Work out means continuous cooperation with God’s grace until death.

That continuous cooperation with God is not guranteed at ll by anyone at some point beginning belief in God and beginning to continually cooperate with him.

That is why Faith alone never has–doesn’t now–and never will in the future save!

Salvation is not an Instanteous only event–it is a continually cooperatin until death process.

Why is that so hard for some people to understand?

 

[Pax]

Some of what you say has merit and some of it IMHO is seriously flawed.

There is no contradiction only on how the word “work” is perceived.

Working it out (Salvation) simply means, one who has it, will work through it to with power from on high to mould or make the body conform to the wishes of the spirit.
Does in no way mean, work for to get salvation, but through salvation, working out our problems with the flesh.
…
…
AJ

Yes and no on this. It is best to stick with the clear words of scripture rather that bending them to and fro. It is obvious that we do not earn our salvation. Salvation is indeed a gift, but so also are the means that God gives us to obtain salvation. In order to be consistent with the words of Paul and with James 2:24 it is necessary to say the following:

“We are saved by God’s grace alone that comes from the merits of Jesus passion, death, and resurrection, through faith and works, but not by faith alone.”

…

These righteous works are Gods works in us, not ours, for it says that Our righteousness is as filthy rags.
…
Peace>>>AJ

You got the most important part correct. The works that we do as described in Eph 2:10 and in James chapter 2, are indeed the Father’s works within us. I congratulate you on this…I have many non-Catholics that simply ignore this extraorinarily important point. That is why faith and works are both necessary for salvation and why all of the glory goes to God.

Our righteousness is as filthy rags? Not so. Our righteousness by grace, including our works that are inspired, powered, and required by God are pleasing to him. I’ll give the scripture passages that show this if you need them. Likewise, the use of the OT reference to filthy rags does not apply. If you read Isaiah 64:6 and the surrounding chapters that contain this reference you will see that it was applied to Jews at that time because they were “rebellious to the holy Spirit, living in iniquity, they were not calling on God’s name, and they were even engaged in idolatrous practices.” It is for this reason that even their righteous deeds were as filthy rags. This verse has nothing to do with good works done by the Christian by the power of God’s grace.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved, an on-going action in the present tense as for all eternity.

…
…

Peace>>>AJ

Sorry, but there are just too many provisional verses in the NT scriptures to let this OSAS statement stand. I will provide the passages to you if you need them.

 

[Philthy]

Working it out (Salvation) simply means, one who has it, will work through it to with power from on high to mould or make the body conform to the wishes of the spirit. Does in no way mean, work for to get salvation, but through salvation, working out our problems with the flesh.
Peace>>>AJ

Try and stick to one issue if you wish to make progress…

If, as you say, Christ has died for all mankind and all we need to do is beleive and trust Him in order to enter Heaven, then who cares about “working out our problems with the flesh”? Toward what end, exactly, are we working and why is that end important if we are saved despite working it out?
Lastly, you need to reconsider what it means to “believe and trust” in Jesus. Beleiving and trusting are different and both can and must be expressed not only in our hearts, but through our actions. If you choose to enter an adulterous relationship, do you “believe and trust in Jesus”? Before you answer, remember that God has promised that whatever trials we face He will provide us with the strength to withstand them (cf 1Cor 10:13) So when we deliberately sin despite having been given the grace to withstand temptation, do we still have faith - do we still believe - do we still trust, or have we ceased to “believe and trust”?

 

[look3467]

May I give my qualification for the basis of my argument that faith in Christ is the first step in receiving the gift of salvation and then afterwards come the good works as a result of.

The creation of Adam and Eve caused a separation (death) as the result of knowledge gained; Evident by the partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
(The day you eat of the tree thou shall die)

Thereafter every soul born after mankind, received the same sentence, meaning that every child born is as like Adam, innocent until the child partakes of the tree of knowledge and discovers that it comes short of the glory of God. (Age of accountability)

This separation held mankind captive with no possibility of entering Heaven unless God Himself would remedy the situation for mankind.

God’s plan of the salvation of His creation was, to Himself save the world in bodily form as Jesus.

Introduced to mankind via Abraham and his decedents, the coming savior of the world was promised as the coming Messiah.

Jesus then comes into the picture at an appointed time and as God, on the cross, delivers all of mankind from the penalty of eternal death (Separation) as a free gift.

Thus the eternal death situation is done away with by Christ as He holds the keys of hell and death.
Everything remains the same, we still die, we still suffer pain and we suffer the consequences for our misdeeds.

What was needed and what Jesus provided, was life eternal, as only God could have provided and that He gave it to us as a free gift.

Therefore, a rebirth is needed for this new life to take hold.

Jesus said, that we must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God, for our present spirit is dead (separated).

How so, if we are already a grown person, yet the understanding is that we must be re-born in spirit, the spirit of Christ in us, the gift of salvation in us that worketh out the good works.

A pitcher can not pour out water without first having water in itself, and like wise, salvation must be in the vessel first before any good work can be produced.

Faith is a spiritual quality that requires belief, trust and reliance on what God says concerning our salvation and nothing to do with the physical.

So then, good works are the direct result of having faith in God, to perform that which is good.
The reference to filthy rags was to demonstrate that without God, mankind has no good works.

That is the picture painted in the whole of the bible and is the basis by which mankind can come back to God via the body of Jesus Christ.

Jesus, on the day of the cross, became God, as He alone could save the world as it was, and usher in a new creation, that being a spiritual renovation and in by which all mankind was to benefit from it.

In order for Jesus to be the Savior of the world, He has to include all souls from the very first human who were held prisoners to the death sentence, and deliver them all up by eliminating death and hell.

All this is puzzled together, in the whole of the bible as God reveals and opens up our eyes to see.

The New Testament then, is the struggled beginnings of this new creation that as an infant beginning, this child is growing in maturity as the body of Christ.

The mature Christian individual holds no discrimination against its fellow human being, for Jesus demonstrated it when He was accused of eating and drinking with sinners, forgiving the adultery case, calling the tax collector to be His disciple, the fisherman who were considered of low degree.

Verses: the structured strict rules governing the behavior of it participants, leading to be guided by the rule of law, rather than being ruled by our heart where Jesus should reside.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Pax]

This is much closer to what Catholics believe. Unfortunately, your last sentence kind of bombs the whole thing for me. You said:

“Verses: the structured strict rules governing the behavior of it participants, leading to be guided by the rule of law, rather than being ruled by our heart where Jesus should reside.”

If this is supposed to be describing the Catholic Church then we have a long way to go in our discussions.

 

[look3467]

Try and stick to one issue if you wish to make progress…

If, as you say, Christ has died for all mankind and all we need to do is beleive and trust Him in order to enter Heaven, then who cares about “working out our problems with the flesh”?>>> Philthy

If a mature believer understood the gravity of its salvation, then the resultant behavior would be that of gratitude, appreciation and love for the Father, Jesus and or the Holy Spirit.

To say quote: “then who cares about "working out our problems with the flesh” demonstrates a lack of understanding and immaturity of spirit.

Toward what end, exactly, are we working and why is that end important if we are saved despite working it out?>>> Philthy

To what end? Consider ourselves as children at the start of our spiritual journey, we learn fro our fathers, our churches and the world around us about God.
If we have a hunger to know Him better, He directs us to His word, opens it up for us to see according to our ability to understand, based on age, experience and our hearts desires.
We are a child, whose faith is in God, Jesus, and by trial and error, we grow towards maturity, and producing the works of God in us as we give Him place.
For when we know Him by faith, our minds are ever being renewed to think and act in a heavenly mode as we become like He is.
We fall, willingly sometimes, and unwillingly at other times, but that is an expected behavior as we are working out, meaning living under the power and compassion of God.

If a selfish, lusting individual, totally given to these worlds pleasures should consider salvation given as a free gift, then the attitude would be: “Great! I can sin all I want and still go to heaven. Why try? Why be good?

Lastly, you need to reconsider what it means to “believe and trust” in Jesus. Beleiving and trusting are different and both can and must be expressed not only in our hearts, but through our actions.>>> Philthy

To believe in Jesus is to trust in what He says! If He says, come to me and I will give you rest, then, my actions would be towards attaining that rest. (By the way, the rest of which He speaks is the work of salvation, which is His alone)

If you choose to enter an adulterous relationship, do you “believe and trust in Jesus”?>>> Philthy

Lets reverse that statement to read: If you believe and trust in Jesus and choose to enter an adulterous relationship, is my salvation in jeopardy?

The answer is no! But, dear one, it is an awful thing to fall in the hands of the corrections officer, of which consequences maybe painful not only to the individual, but also to the ones near him.

Whatever one sows, that shall we also reap, applies.

Before you answer, remember that God has promised that whatever trials we face He will provide us with the strength to withstand them (cf 1Cor 10:13) So when we deliberately sin despite having been given the grace to withstand temptation, do we still have faith - do we still believe - do we still trust, or have we ceased to “believe and trust”?>>> Philthy

Good question and one which has an answer.
Yes, God does provide us with strength through our trials, when we desire it with our hearts, but being fleshly, we may fall to temptations, of which God may use as a tool to teach us to grow in maturity where these temptations no longer can hold any power over us.

I’m sure that as a parent you understand the raising of children.
The love you have for them supersedes anything wrong done against you, but not before making a set of corrections on them so they learn to make the better choices next time.

As they grow they encounter different issues, going through trials, and sufferings with your guidance and sometimes with your strength, grow to mature individual whose love an appreciation for you was worth all your efforts and sacrifices.

Similarly, we are growing towards maturity towards the full stature that of Christ, that when we are there, we have overcome the world as He had, for we are in the strength and the power of Jesus Christ our Lord.

If a child fails does in no way mean expulsion from its parents, but remains a child of the parents for as long as it lives.

Similarly, we as children remain Gods, even if we fail, for He is our Father and He loves us with unmerited love.

May we learn to appreciate that love, and live to please Him in all our ways?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

This is much closer to what Catholics believe. Unfortunately, your last sentence kind of bombs the whole thing for me. You said:

“Verses: the structured strict rules governing the behavior of it participants, leading to be guided by the rule of law, rather than being ruled by our heart where Jesus should reside.”

If this is supposed to be describing the Catholic Church then we have a long way to go in our discussions.

Not only the Catholic church, the protestants, the Muslims and all other religious and non-religious organizations that discriminate according to their beliefs.

The body of Christ is divided such that to unite all members, love must be the basis for unity.

Division is a test instituted by God so that we may learn to Love one another despite our beliefs.

If we can achieve it individually, then God’s plan works to His glory honor and praise.

I speak to all beliefs in love and compassion of God, for it is the nature of mankind to be different.

For me to discriminate based on what I thought God would discriminate, would make me a useless vessel.

But if I discriminate not and see as God sees, then have love for my brethren, my enemies is in harmony with His love.

I have arrived at this point only after working it out in trial and error, and desiring to love God with all my mind, heart and soul and to love my neighbor as my self.

If one chooses to be a Catholic, then be a good Catholic, if a protestant, than a good protestant etc, but exercise the love of God first, above all things.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Church_Militant]

Lets reverse that statement to read: **If you believe and trust in Jesus and choose to enter an adulterous relationship, is my salvation in jeopardy?

The answer is no!**

I don’t think that that position is supported by the Word of God.

1st John 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

John 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
**
Revelation 3**:5 He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

There is a rather excellent FREE MP3 Bible study on this subject called Once Saved, Always Saved? and the notes are here. You might want to give it a listen.

 

[look3467]

I don’t think that that position is supported by the Word of God.>>> Church Militant

Salvation is a product of God, not of man.
If it were not so, then man would have to do the works to obtain its own salvation.
There would be no need for the sacrifice of Jesus.

The promises of the coming messiah, Savior of the world would have been a lie.

If you look at it from a different slant, other than from the one you are used to looking from, you will see that all prophecies technically are lies, until they were proven to be true.

And then and only then do they became truth, at the time of their fulfilling.

Mankind as it was, was in a world lost to the ability to enter heaven, not because of its own will, but because God begun it that way.

The gates of heaven (Brass) were shut to keep souls out and the gates of hell (Iron) kept souls in.
So there existed a great gulf-span between heaven and hell that could only be bridged by God Himself.

Jesus is the promised answer, the Messiah who would come to save that which was lost from the beginning.

Thus it is credited to God the Savior of mankind executed by the actions of Jesus, a new name by which all mankind might be saved.

This Jesus of course is God, as the name implies, Yah=Father and shua=salvation, together is the Fathers salvation.

The two part marriage of the spiritual and the flesh, together became one: a living soul.

And when the two are married, they will leave mother and father and shall become one.

There is a separation there, between the spirit and the flesh, and when the spirit leaves the flesh, the there is no more a living soul but a dead one.

Therefore as Jesus said, one must be born from above in order to enter into the kingdom of God.

Being alive in the flesh is to be a son of man, but to be born of God, is to be a son of God.

Born twice, but dies once; so is if one is born again?

The spiritual world was re-created to accept mankind back to the Father via the body of Jesus as God reconciling the world back unto Him self.

This re-creation took place in one 24 hour period. The world that then was came to an end and that day was taken out of time, never to be numbered amongst the days, the weeks or the years.

Jesus, therefore is the beginning and the end of all of it in one day, the day He died on the cross.

The new creation, the New Jerusalem came down from heaven to bring salvation to a lost world. And God did it all for us.

We are left without a death penalty, a spiritual death penalty, the kind that would have barred our souls for all eternity from the presence of God.
Jesus broke asunder the gates of iron and broken open the gates of brass, bridging the great gulf span by way of the cross.

What part do we now play? The word says, that whatever we sow, that shall we reap.

In the case of the born again individual who committed adultery, his soul is still saved, but must face his own consequences for his misdeeds.

Recall the man that Paul gave instructions to excommunicate him from the fellowship?
He also said, that he would be given over to Satan (World) so that the world would spank him, sort of speak, but to not let him remain in that state, but to reinstate him after he had shown meat of repentance.

His salvation was never in jeopardy, but his actions, his misdeeds had consequences, and those had to be met.

You gave excellent scriptures as references, just keep in mind that prior to Jesus sacrifice, the world was still as it was.
So everything Jesus said applied then, but after His resurrection, it all changed for the promise of salvation had been fulfilled.
We were servants, but now, He calls us friends!

The day Jesus died has allot of significance, and there are clues all over the bible to indicate that.

One 24 hour day, divided into portions to include all 7 days of creation, so that there would be not one thing left out.

I use the bible only for all my references, and there is where I find all that I know.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Pax]

Not only the Catholic church, the protestants, the Muslims and all other religious and non-religious organizations that discriminate according to their beliefs.

The body of Christ is divided such that to unite all members, love must be the basis for unity.

Division is a test instituted by God so that we may learn to Love one another despite our beliefs.

If we can achieve it individually, then God’s plan works to His glory honor and praise.

I speak to all beliefs in love and compassion of God, for it is the nature of mankind to be different.

For me to discriminate based on what I thought God would discriminate, would make me a useless vessel.

But if I discriminate not and see as God sees, then have love for my brethren, my enemies is in harmony with His love.

I have arrived at this point only after working it out in trial and error, and desiring to love God with all my mind, heart and soul and to love my neighbor as my self.

If one chooses to be a Catholic, then be a good Catholic, if a protestant, than a good protestant etc, but exercise the love of God first, above all things.

Peace>>>AJ

You are right about love. We are to love God above all things with our whole mind, heart, and strength, and we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. The love of Christ should motivate us in all things.

You are IMHO, however, pretty much off the mark in the rest of your post. Please be advised that Jesus discriminated. Every choice made by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are discriminatory. We are to follow with love all that Jesus taught us. Jesus was discrimnatory in establishing “His Church.” Jesus did not establish “churches.”

Our love of God and acceptance of God’s will are dependent on knowing the truth. The Catholic Church is not a denomination. The Catholic Church is the church described in 1 Timothy 3:15 as “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” Only the church established by Christ can make that claim.

Love of one another is an important component in restoring Christian unity, but it will accomplish little in the way of unity if the participants do not also love and seek the truth.

With all due respect I must tell you that division is NOT a test instituted by God so that we may learn to Love one another despite our beliefs. Please read John Chapter 17. It is all about God’s desire for unity and it is all about Jesus praying for unity. Likewise, Jude 1:17-19 says, "But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; they said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.”** It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit**.

I do agree that we must always approach one another with love and respect. You are certainly a good example of someone that makes every effort to do that. I commend you for your charity and good will.

 

[Church_Militant]

Salvation is a product of God, not of man.
If it were not so, then man would have to do the works to obtain its own salvation.

I never said otherwise.

If you look at it from a different slant, other than from the one you are used to looking from, you will see that all prophecies technically are lies, until they were proven to be true. And then and only then do they became truth, at the time of their fulfilling.

I don’t think that is supported by the Word of God either. I’d welcome you to open another thread and make your case for that though. (it’ll drag us off topic here.)

Mankind as it was, was in a world lost to the ability to enter heaven, not because of its own will

, but because God begun it that way.That’s not what the Word of God says my friend. It was a choice by man that caused the fall. (See Genesis 3) If you read Genesis 1 & 2 you’ll see exactly how God began the life of mankind.

The gates of heaven (Brass)

were shut to keep souls out and the gates of hell (Iron) kept souls in.I don’t think you can support those two substances as composing the gates of heaven and hell from the Word of God either.

So there existed a great gulf-span between heaven and hell that could only be bridged by God Himself.

And the Catholic Church would agree with that statement.

Jesus is the promised answer, the Messiah who would come to save that which was lost from the beginning.

This too.

Thus it is credited to God the Savior of mankind executed by the actions of Jesus, a new name by which all mankind might be saved.

That makes no Biblical sense.

This Jesus of course is God, as the name implies, Yah=Father and shua=salvation, together is the Fathers salvation.

The two part marriage of the spiritual and the flesh, together became one: a living soul.

It would be the incarnation of God in the flesh…according to the New Testament anyway.

And when the two are married, they will leave mother and father and shall become one.

Completely irrelevant to a discussion of the incarnation and the deity of Jesus.

Therefore as Jesus said, one must be born from above in order to enter into the kingdom of God.

How does this relate to the topic of the “New Testament”= our workbook!?

Being alive in the flesh is to be a son of man, but to be born of God, is to be a son of God.

Born twice, but dies once; so is if one is born again?

The spiritual world was re-created to accept mankind back to the Father via the body of Jesus as God reconciling the world back unto Him self.

This re-creation took place in one 24 hour period. The world that then was came to an end and that day was taken out of time, never to be numbered amongst the days, the weeks or the years.

Jesus, therefore is the beginning and the end of all of it in one day, the day He died on the cross.

This sounds like another Gospel to me. Sorry…

The new creation, the New Jerusalem came down from heaven to bring salvation to a lost world.

And God did it all for us.Sorry, but that is yet to happen according to the Word of God.:bible1:

What part do we now play? The word says, that whatever we sow, that shall we reap.

In the case of the born again individual who committed adultery, his soul is still saved

, but must face his own consequences for his misdeeds.So…he’s saved forever regardless of what he does and whether he repents of that sin? That’s not what my Bible says…as I have pointed out to you already. Look at the parable of seed and soil, and of course Matthew 25:31-46.

Recall the man that Paul gave instructions to excommunicate him from the fellowship?
He also said, that he would be given over to Satan (World)

so that the world would spank him, sort of speak, but to not let him remain in that state, but to reinstate him after he had shown meat of repentance.1st Corinthians 5 but that says nothing at all about Satan being the World and my Bible says they are separate entities.

His salvation was never in jeopardy

, but his actions, his misdeeds had consequences, and those had to be met.I would disagree. I don’t see that in the New Testament.

You gave excellent scriptures as references,

:blushing: Thank you.

just keep in mind that prior to Jesus sacrifice, the world was still as it was.
So everything Jesus said applied then, but after His resurrection, it all changed for the promise of salvation had been fulfilled.
We were servants, but now, He calls us friends!

So, you’re telling me that once someone “accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior” that no matter what they do they cannot fall away and lose their salvation, right?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Having drifted off topic into salvation instead of the New Testament, this thread is now closed.

 

[look3467]

You are IMHO, however, pretty much off the mark in the rest of your post. Please be advised that Jesus discriminated. Every choice made by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are discriminatory. We are to follow with love all that Jesus taught us. Jesus was discriminatory in establishing “His Church.” Jesus did not establish “churches.”>>> Pax

Jesus pointed out that the faith like Peter’s was indeed the type of faith required to establish His church.
Or say, upon this faith, I will establish my church.

Peter understood, for Jesus had asked him who he thought Jesus was, and He answered, “the son of God”, and in which Jesus replied, no man had given him that knowledge except it came from God.
Two conditions here: 1st, knowledge to see Jesus for who He is, must come from God, and 2nd, having this knowledge constitutes the church of Christ.

The Church of Christ is a body of believers whose hearts and minds eyes have been opened to see Jesus as our Savior and redeemer by reason of the 1st condition above.

Once we see Jesus as our Savior, salvation is granted us as a free gift from God.

What we must then do is work to define just what this salvation means in our daily living.

Those things we must work out, for as young believers, we are inexperienced, and apt to fall frequently, during the process of learning to overcome those things which are against God.

So, the New Testament is our guide, we study it, we practice what we think is correct, and through trial and error, through suffering and joy, peace and war, we make adjustments as we grow towards mature individual in spirit.

We face many issues that are not clearly defined in the scriptures which can only be worked out as the Holy Spirit gives guidance. We may be clearly stuck in a belief groove, which may or may not be a healthy thing to our spirits.
This is where the Holy Spirit gives conviction, so as to steer us to the correct understanding of things.

The Holy Spirit has shown me through His word, through life’s experiences and through words written by other than religious man, that God is first above all: love.

There are many different beliefs and views of God, yet God showed me He loves them all.

He looks at the heart, and if the heart is for God, then God accepts their faith in Jesus’.

For many, the Catholic Church is all they know, and therefore worship in and through it.
And then there’s other religions who have it’s members worship the same God but in their own way, and God accepts them.

If the love of God was demonstrated by all religious groups, than there would be no distinctions, yet remaining different.

But as it is, distinctions become the rule of law, thus we are divided.

It is in this division then, that good must be generated. It is the catalyst for promoting good.

No division, no distinction, no love generated.

Reason for the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, is so that by distinction, we may choose the good rather than the evil.

If we weren’t working out our salvation, there would be no change, no change, no growth, no growth, we remain earthly minded.

Head covering for women was detailed by Paul, but yet today, women serve in church with head uncovered.
What prompt the change? Did we grow up somewhat? Are we not with better understanding?

Is there not harmony between the sexes as to the service to God? Why? Is it because we choose to see women as God sees them as equal in spirit as men, and not as men see them?

This is just one issue of many that change had to take place in order to conform to the way God sees things rather than how man sees them.

The New Testament though is Gospel; Jesus is the last word on all issues.

All the apostles were human and with their best ability, tried to give the best views of what God had showed them.
That’s the Holy Spirits jobs is to teach and instruct us.
Take what was given us, and work with it to find God, and He will make sure that He is found.

P.S. I will never say anybody’s beliefs or views are flawed, for that is all they know and or understand.
If I may enlighten them abit, maybe they may find joy in their faith.

Peace>>>AJ

That’s where salvation is worked out, in the New testament!

But thanks anyway for letting me participate.

Peace>>>AJ