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Suslar
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Entirely untrue? Ouch! No, not “entirely” Still, thank you, Elizium, for the opportunity to clarify what I posted. I certainly don’t want to confuse anyone who might be reading. I think you and I might actually be trying to say the same thing, no? At any rate, my point is that a valid (i.e. with adequate consent), sacramental covenant (by definition, consummation seals the covenant) between a baptized man and a baptized woman cannot be dissolved (or divorced) by anyone and only broken upon death of one of the parties. Either such a marriage was/is a valid Sacramental covenant marriage or it never was (which is what a Declaration of Nullity signifies). The Catholic Church does not have divorce or a way to end a valid Sacramental marriage although She can declare the marriage was not ever valid.
That’s what Can 1142 says too – A non-consummated marriage can be dissolved for a just reason – but not a consummated covenant.
Regardless, you are absolutely right that it is best left to the experts. That’s why only the Tribunal can examine a marriage for nullity - and they don’t care much about popular vote or opinion of us CAF-ers!
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aemcpa
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His point is that a marriage between two baptized Christians that is non-consummated is still both valid and sacramental, which is why the Church has to dissolve it. The fact that the Church has to dissolve the bond implies that the bond exists; a marriage that is declared and null has no bond to dissolve. The Pauline Privilege is also a case where the Church dissolves a valid (although not sacramental) marriage.Entirely untrue? Ouch! No, not “entirely” Still, thank you, Elizium, for the opportunity to clarify what I posted. I certainly don’t want to confuse anyone who might be reading. I think you and I might actually be trying to say the same thing, no? At any rate, my point is that a valid (i.e. with adequate consent), sacramental covenant (by definition, consummation seals the covenant) between a baptized man and a baptized woman cannot be dissolved (or divorced) by anyone and only broken upon death of one of the parties. Either such a marriage was/is a valid Sacramental covenant marriage or it never was (which is what a Declaration of Nullity signifies). The Catholic Church does not have divorce or a way to end a valid Sacramental marriage although She can declare the marriage was not ever valid.
That’s what Can 1142 says too – A non-consummated marriage can be dissolved for a just reason – but not a consummated covenant.
Regardless, you are absolutely right that it is best left to the experts. That’s why only the Tribunal can examine a marriage for nullity - and they don’t care much about popular vote or opinion of us CAF-ers!
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Elizium23
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I am curious about this, I don’t know for sure, but I have never heard that a covenant does not exist until consummation. Can you quote a source to back this up? I just scoured the Catechism, and as far as I could turn up, the marriage covenant depends on consent, not consummation.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Are you saying that a Josephite marriage has no covenant to bind the two as husband and wife? Are you saying that the marriage anniversary should be celebrated on the date of consummation instead of the date of exchange of consent? It seems to suggest that the wedding reception should not be held until outside the couple’s honeymoon suite, they emerge as a truly married couple.
Furthermore, divorce is always possible. Especially in an indissoluble, valid sacramental marriage. If the spouse turns into a horrible abuser or has some intractable problem that makes conjugal life impossible, sometimes the only recourse is divorce, which provides for a just means of dividing community property and custody of children. The Church does not teach that divorce is impossible or impermissible, only that it should be vanishingly rare in the face of adequate preparation and right understanding of the marriage covenant.
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Suslar
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Elizium,
Are you suggesting a valid Sacramental marriage can be terminated for reason other than death of one party? Canon 1141 says “A marriage which is ratified and consummated cannot be dissolved by any human power or by any cause other than death.”
Can you please clarify your statement about divorce?
It is my understanding that civil divorce is not the domain of the Catholic Church so She neither teaches that divorce is impossible/ impermissible or possible/ permissible. The Church does not have a mechanism to end a covenant that is ratum et consummatum. In the case of abuse mentioned, certainly the couple can divorce in civil court, but the marriage bond remains. Their status in the Church would be “separated while the bond remains.” Neither could remarry in the Church until one party died. My point was there is no such thing as divorce in the Catholic Church – Either there is a valid marriage or it never was – the Church cannot “divorce” the parties to a valid covenant. One fallacy is that annulment is “Catholic divorce.” I believe you’d agree that is not true. The Church does not administer divorce; the word has no meaning in context of a Catholic marriage – it belongs to the secular world.
Are you suggesting a valid Sacramental marriage can be terminated for reason other than death of one party? Canon 1141 says “A marriage which is ratified and consummated cannot be dissolved by any human power or by any cause other than death.”
Can you please clarify your statement about divorce?
It is my understanding that civil divorce is not the domain of the Catholic Church so She neither teaches that divorce is impossible/ impermissible or possible/ permissible. The Church does not have a mechanism to end a covenant that is ratum et consummatum. In the case of abuse mentioned, certainly the couple can divorce in civil court, but the marriage bond remains. Their status in the Church would be “separated while the bond remains.” Neither could remarry in the Church until one party died. My point was there is no such thing as divorce in the Catholic Church – Either there is a valid marriage or it never was – the Church cannot “divorce” the parties to a valid covenant. One fallacy is that annulment is “Catholic divorce.” I believe you’d agree that is not true. The Church does not administer divorce; the word has no meaning in context of a Catholic marriage – it belongs to the secular world.
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aemcpa
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A marriage that is ratum non consummatum is valid and sacramental, and yet can be dissolved by the Pope.
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Elizium23
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Suslar
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Yes, I will find the source for you as soon as I return home . . . I’m posting thru my phone and don’t have it all at my fingertips. I think it may have been from Fr. Hardon, but I don’t remember for sure. I do remember it said of course the marriage is valid with consent and exchange of vows - so no need to hold off on the reception! But it did differentiate between “virtually indissoluble” (after vows) and “completely indissoluble” (after consummation)
But it did differentiate between “virtually indissoluble” (after vows) and “completely indissoluble” (after consummation)
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Suslar
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Oh my gosh! I just looked again at all these posts and the title of the thread and hope the OP isn’t more confused then when this all began! I am sorry if I contributed to more confusion.
If I could sum up for the OP - the Catholic Church takes marriage very, very seriously. And none of us (well, certainly not me) has the authority to determine validity - that falls to the Tribunal and their investigative process. And, I believe Elizium said something along those lines about 20 posts ago . . .
If I could sum up for the OP - the Catholic Church takes marriage very, very seriously. And none of us (well, certainly not me) has the authority to determine validity - that falls to the Tribunal and their investigative process. And, I believe Elizium said something along those lines about 20 posts ago . . .
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