New to the idea of purgatory

[joeybaggz]

I think in my last post I was a little hard on CAF members and their sense of humor. So I will paste this Carlin rap for your reference. It is a comedy routine from about 1970. Might give you a sense of one comedian’s perception of the church doctrine at that time. I don’t think there is any coarse language in this video.

Edited to say. This is only a partial “cut” from his routine called “I Started out as an Irish Catholic” To those of use who grew up in the pre-Vatican II church with its strict adherence to the Baltimore Catechism, the Latin Mass, and the deification of the clergy and the religious, this was a funny look at a different side of Catholic life. Some may find it funny, others with a more traditional bent to their Catholicism may be offended. It has no objectionable language that I can remember. Though this is the album, “Class Clown” that does contain Carlin’s classic routine, “The seven words you can’s say on television,”
Listen at your own choice/risk.

 

[Wesrock]

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Gorgias]

Maybe I just have to remember to use emojis for all the sour faced saints that frequent this forum???

Maybe. Then again, maybe you can look at context and realize that your mention of Carlin didn’t seem in the least in jest: in an explanation of purgatory, you state, “some believe, like Carlin…”. It sure looked like an assertion, not a joke.

I remember Carlin. Funny, but obscene, guy.

 

[ColorMomma]

Even they may have done their time. The Virgin Mary is the only one that we know, through tradition, who went straight to heaven.

 

[Wannano]

Gorgias:

I’m not certain that it’s helpful to call it “hell”, even if one calls it “temporary”. Hell is about punishment ; purgation is about cleansing .

The late George Carlin was a very funny comedian. The quote I cited was from a bit he did on his first album called “I Used to be and Irish Catholic” I consider it a very funny reflective bit if you grew up Catholic in the NYC area in the 50’s and 60’s. In it he tells of the four places you go after you die; heaven, hell, purgatory, and limbo. He cites the humorous connection people made between hell and purgatory by the line cited.

I’m learning that there really are very few CAF members who have any sense of humor and understand when something is said in jest. Maybe I just have to remember to use emojis for all the sour faced saints that frequent this forum???

This is too funny. I once thought I was extending humor and you sharply castigated me for not having much ability with being funny and told me I should be using emojis if trying to speak in jest!!

 

[Gorgias]

This is too funny. I once thought I was extending humor and you sharply castigated me for not having much ability with being funny and told me I should be using emojis if trying to speak in jest!!

Then again, you know how I make copious use of emoji’s around here, myself!

Maybe I’m the only one with a well-developed sense of humor around here!

 

[AugustTherese]

Hell is about punishment ; purgation is about cleansing .

Purgatory is about both purgation and punishment. Purgatory is temporal punishment, hence indulgences and prayers for the dead.

 

[Gorgias]

Purgatory is about both purgation and punishment. Purgatory is temporal punishment, hence indulgences and prayers for the dead.

I think I would assert that temporal punishment due to sin is ‘due’ while we are alive. Whatever has not been resolved while on earth is purged prior to entry into heaven. So… not really punishment, per se, but rather, resolution of temporal punishment not ‘paid’ through penance while alive.

 

[AugustTherese]

not really punishment , per se, but rather, resolution of temporal punishment not ‘paid’ through penance while alive.

Purgatory is punishment in the most literal sense. There is no need to equivocate.

“It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God’s sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or ‘purifying’ punishments”.

‘That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt is clearly demonstrated by the doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those "who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments”.’

https://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-...-vi_apc_01011967_indulgentiarum-doctrina.html

 

[Thom18]

What is it? What is its purpose?

Purgatory is where all who die in a state of venial (“minor”) sin go before being welcomed into Heaven, in order to purify them from these sins. Here we also endure the temporal punishments for all of our forgiven sins, assuming that the indulgences we’ve earned don’t cover them.

Do Catholics have to go through purgatory? Does everyone go through purgatory before going to heaven or hell?

Purgatory is for anyone, Catholic or otherwise, who dies in a state of venial sin but not mortal sin, or otherwise needs to be purified before entering Heaven.

Does it have any biblical basis?

It has some Jewish precedent, found in 2 Maccabees 12:39-46, but is never explicitly mentioned. Rather, it’s suggested by the few verses alluding to it in the Old and New Testaments, and our knowledge of sin and salvation.

 

[AugustTherese]

Here we also endure the temporal punishments for all of our forgiven sins, assuming that the indulgences we’ve earned don’t cover them.

@Gorgias

 

[Gorgias]

Thom18:

Here we also endure the temporal punishments for all of our forgiven sins, assuming that the indulgences we’ve earned don’t cover them.

@Gorgias

My take is that what would have been our temporal punishment due to sin is expiated. Not punished – as you say, the time for “self-expiating” the temporal punishment due to sin has passed.

In any case, “temporal punishment due to sin” is the name for it… but does that imply that it’s literal ‘punishment’ in purgatory… or is it simply purging that residual attachment to sin? Not saying that this purging is pleasant… just that it’s not punative.

@AugustTherese

 

[AugustTherese]

My take is that what would have been our temporal punishment due to sin is expiated. Not punished – as you say, the time for “self-expiating” the temporal punishment due to sin has passed.

In any case, “temporal punishment due to sin” is the name for it… but does that imply that it’s literal ‘punishment’ in purgatory… or is it simply purging that residual attachment to sin? Not saying that this purging is pleasant… just that it’s not punative.

@AugustTherese

Every single mortal and venial sin we commit, the balance of justice requires either eternal or temporal punishment, respectively; eternal punishment for mortal sin and temporal punishment for mortal and venial sin.

When we commit a mortal sin, we are guilty of destroying charity and Divine Justice requires eternal punishment. Thank God that Our Blessed Lord died and rose to satisfy that Divine Justice! However, His Paschal Mystery is the source of forgiveness and remission of eternal punishment, while the Sacraments, viz. Confession, are the means to apply that forgiveness (granted we are perfectly contrite) thus remitting eternal punishment only. Once the guilt as been atoned for through Confession, there still remains temporal (for a time, not eternal) punishment that needs to be paid to satisfy justice. That temporal punishment involves suffering/purging, but it is nonetheless a punishment in the most strict sense. Most of us will not atone for all of our temporal punishments on earth through the Treasury of Merits, i.e. indulgences, and therefore will have to suffer that temporal punishment in purgatory. Again, we suffer loss and are purged, but we are being punished for the evil that we committed, it’s only that that punishment is temporal (for a time) and not eternal.

Likewise, every venial sin we commit requires temporal punishment to satisfy justice, and, again, once venial sins are forgiven and the guilt is removed, we still need to balance the order of justice through temporal punishment. I will add that venial sins can be forgiven after death.

Then, indulgences (partial/plenary) that are merited here on earth, remits either part or all of temporal punishments. This is why we offer Masses, prayers, etc. for the holy souls in purgatory. They cannot merit remission for their temporal punishments that they are suffering in purgatory.

Our Blessed Lord died and rose for the forgiveness of sins and to remit eternal punishment. Temporal punishment will always be due to mortal and venial sin, whether in this life or in the next.

Make sense?

Also, I am no expert theologian who knows everything regarding this topic. I do know, however, that purgatory is a state of temporal punishment that involves purging. Many Christians, mostly Protestants but some Catholics, have this idea that anyone referring to us being punished for sins committed is taboo because ‘Christ was punished in our place’. That is heresy. Christ laid down his life for the forgiveness of mortal and venial sins and for the remission of eternal punishment; He did not die and rise for the remission of all punishments.