New Translation: "In one, holy", or "and one, holy"?

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GloriousOrder

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Friends :),

The official translation of the Nicene Creed has undergone revisions with the new translation, as you know. I’m rather confused about the infamous wording of the last articles of the Creed, however. Some websites, blogs, and new-translation-composer’s-guides have the new acclamation of belief in the Church saying “And/I believe one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church”. The translation put out by the U.S.C.C.B. says “I believe in one…”, but the Latin very literally says “et unam, sanctam, catholicam, et apostolicam Ecclesiam”, not “Credo in unam, sanctam…”, so why the difference? Wasn’t the new translation supposed to be totally accurate?

Believing in the Church is different from believing that God instituted the Church. We believe in (trust in, confide in) the blessed Trinity, not in the Church; God is the “sine qua non” of belief in the Church, and not the Church itself, right? Which translation is even the right one that’s coming out this Advent season? :confused:
 
In the copy of the new translation I have it says “I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.” It’s a copy I got online from the UK liturgy office.

Now my Latin isn’t great but from what I can tell, it starts as “Credo in unum Deum” and then whereas in English we repeat “I believe in”, the Latin just says “Et”. I don’t know why the English repeats where the Latin doesn’t, translation is a tricky issue and sometimes you do have to make slight changes for it to make sense.
 
It seems to me, that the problem is that the Q is having issues with believing in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church versus saying I believe in God . . . the point being that when the Nicene Creed was written and approved there were many heretical beliefs in Christianity. (Just as technically there are today.) So by stating in mass that All of Us (who are present in the mass at that given time all over the world) believe in One Holy, Catholic (Universal), and Apostolic Church . . . you are saying that you do not adhere to a heretical belief. It does not mean that you see the Church as God. Its an affirmation. 🙂 Hope that helped. And yes, the translation of one language to another often does mean that you lose or change the way it sounds. Even if you try not to lose anything.
 
GloriousOrder said:
Believing in the Church is different from believing that God instituted the Church. We believe in (trust in, confide in) the blessed Trinity, not in the Church;
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I trust in the church, don’t you? Saying something like, “We trust in our families, God, and the church” is the same as saying “We have faith in our families, God, and the church.”

We should trust all these things to the best of our abilities. 🙂 We save worship for God alone, but faith, trust, and belief should be in many things.
 
PerfectTiming said:
In the copy of the new translation I have it says “I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.” It’s a copy I got online from the UK liturgy office.

Now my Latin isn’t great but from what I can tell, it starts as “Credo in unum Deum” and then whereas in English we repeat “I believe in”, the Latin just says “Et”. I don’t know why the English repeats where the Latin doesn’t, translation is a tricky issue and sometimes you do have to make slight changes for it to make sense.
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Because what works in Latin doesn’t always work in English. When the translation originally came out it said "And in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. " That’s not a sentence in English. By subtituting “I believe” for “And” you got complete sentences and proper grammar and didn’t change the meaning.

What can I say, they threw those of us who are grammar nerds a bone.😉
 
Phemie said:
Because what works in Latin doesn’t always work in English. When the translation originally came out it said "And in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. " That’s not a sentence in English. By subtituting “I believe” for “And” you got complete sentences and proper grammar and didn’t change the meaning.

What can I say, they threw those of us who are grammar nerds a bone.😉
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That’s what I thought, I’m just not hugely familiar with the structure of Latin. I guessed based on knowledge on Spanish/Portuguese/French.
 
GloriousOrder said:
Friends :),

The official translation of the Nicene Creed has undergone revisions with the new translation, as you know. I’m rather confused about the infamous wording of the last articles of the Creed, however. Some websites, blogs, and new-translation-composer’s-guides have the new acclamation of belief in the Church saying “And/I believe one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church”. The translation put out by the U.S.C.C.B. says “I believe in one…”, but the Latin very literally says “et unam, sanctam, catholicam, et apostolicam Ecclesiam”, not “Credo in unam, sanctam…”, so why the difference? Wasn’t the new translation supposed to be totally accurate?

Believing in the Church is different from believing that God instituted the Church. We believe in (trust in, confide in) the blessed Trinity, not in the Church; God is the “sine qua non” of belief in the Church, and not the Church itself, right? Which translation is even the right one that’s coming out this Advent season? :confused:
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You bring up some interesting points.

Upon closer examination of the Latin Credo, the only times the “in” is used is with a Person of the Trinity. So you’re right, the “I trust in” would work better (as in “In God We Trust”). Same for “Et IN Unum Dominum Jesum Christum” and “Et IN Spiritum Sanctum.”

The “IN” is left out of the rest of the phrases/clauses. But, since there are accusatives there (unAM, sanctAM, etc) they either imply a “Credo” or “Credo in” and I would tend to go with the former. The absense of the Latin “IN” should be noted that because this “belief” is different than the “belief” in the Persons of the Trinity. All these nuances appear to be in lost in English.
 
Until a few months ago, the translation of “And one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church”. But that translation was modified by Vox Clara (whether acting on feedback from bishops’ conferences or not, I do not know) in two ways: 1) “And” was changed to “I believe” (so that there are four "I believe"s in the Creed, instead of one “I believe” and three "And"s starting what appear to be sentences); and 2) the word “in” was added.

I was disappointed by the re-introduction of “in” (which appears in our current Missal translation as well) because the Latin word in is specifically omitted at this point in the Creed, and because the Catechism of Trent explained why the word in was omitted. The OP has the right idea (as far as Trent is concerned). Here is how I explained it in the current (2nd) edition of my book on the people’s prayers – which I’ve had to change, a 3rd edition to come out sometime later this year before Advent:
There has been a slight change in the translation of this clause of the Creed: we no longer say that we believe in the Church, but that we believe the Church. The Roman Catechism explains the difference in terminology this way:
[H]ere we make use of a different form of expression, professing to believe the holy, not in the holy Catholic Church. By this difference of expression we distinguish God, the author of all things, from His works… (Roman Catechism, Creed, IX)
We do not believe in the Church as we believe in God, but we do believe the Church is ordained by God to be the guardian and teacher of the faith. We can accept in faith the mysteries revealed by God to His Church, even if we cannot understand them.​
 
FWIW, the Polish (which I consider otherwise better than the English) also has an “in”

Wierze* w** jeden, swiety,…*

I haven’t studied the other translations yet.
 
ProVobis said:
FWIW, the Polish (which I consider otherwise better than the English) also has an “in”

Wierze* w*** jeden, swiety,…

I haven’t studied the other translations yet.
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French also has “en” or “à” depending on whether it’s the Apostles or Nicene Creed.
 
I some older editions of people’s missals, along with forms used by Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists, there also was no in included. It seems that this form of translation is mostly post-war, as the English language evolved and the absence of in began to sound odd to the modern ear.
 
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