New Translation - orans position?

[Elzee]

With all the confusion over the years on if the orans position is appropriate during the Our Father at Mass or if this should be observed as a priestly gesture, is there anything in the New Translation of the Mass that clarifies whether the laity can use this position or not?

 

[YoungTradCath]

There is nothing in the rubrics of the new translation that addresses this posture, except text that lets the priest know when to assume it.

The interesting thing is that since all the postures of the faithful and their responses are contained within the Roman Missal and the GIRM, one can assume that no other postures are allowed. Neither text mentions the orans posture at all as far as the laity is concerned, so it can be said that since it is not mentioned, it is not allowed. However, people will continue to do it, and priests will still allow it, until there is a positive declaration that it is not allowed.

 

[FAB]

With all the confusion over the years on if the orans position is appropriate during the Our Father at Mass or if this should be observed as a priestly gesture, is there anything in the New Translation of the Mass that clarifies whether the laity can use this position or not?

My understanding is that during the process this issue was discussed. In the end the bishops decided not to take any action, so the only instruction is specifically for the priest in the GIRM.

 

[Joannm]

There is nothing in the rubrics of the new translation that addresses this posture, except text that lets the priest know when to assume it.

The interesting thing is that since all the postures of the faithful and their responses are contained within the Roman Missal and the GIRM, one can assume that no other postures are allowed. Neither text mentions the orans posture at all as far as the laity is concerned, so it can be said that since it is not mentioned, it is not allowed. However, people will continue to do it, and priests will still allow it, until there is a positive declaration that it is not allowed.

If you want to use that argument then blessing yourself at the absolution of the Penitential Rite, beating your breast during the Agnus Dei, blessing yourself after receiving communion, and probably a few other gestures that are not mentioned in the GIRM, are not allowed but people still do it. There is no positive declaration on these gestures so they are not allowed (according to your argument).

 

[Elzee]

If you want to use that argument then blessing yourself at the absolution of the Penitential Rite, beating your breast during the Agnus Dei, blessing yourself after receiving communion, and probably a few other gestures that are not mentioned in the GIRM, are not allowed but people still do it. There is no positive declaration on these gestures so they are not allowed (according to your argument).

I think the difference may be that these are not customarily priestly gestures and the GIRM doesn’t specify that the priest do them…if it did, then, I think a better argument could be made that they are reserved for the priest and should not be done by the congregation. But, I also see a point of unity here and your message is well-taken. For example, I know some people who genuflect when the processional cross goes by or who bless themselves when the processional cross goes by and it certainly “stands out” in relation to the rest of the congregation.

 

[YoungTradCath]

If you want to use that argument then blessing yourself at the absolution of the Penitential Rite, beating your breast during the Agnus Dei, blessing yourself after receiving communion, and probably a few other gestures that are not mentioned in the GIRM, are not allowed but people still do it. There is no positive declaration on these gestures so they are not allowed (according to your argument).

Striking one’s breast during the Confiteor is, actually, a rubric. Okay, then don’t make the sign of the cross at the absolution. Fine. Don’t strike your breast during the Agnus Dei. Fine.

 

[Corki]

If you want to use that argument then blessing yourself at the absolution of the Penitential Rite, beating your breast during the Agnus Dei, blessing yourself after receiving communion, and probably a few other gestures that are not mentioned in the GIRM, are not allowed but people still do it. There is no positive declaration on these gestures so they are not allowed (according to your argument).

I struggle with this too. However, crossing oneself is already in the rubrics at other points as is striking one’s breast. These are not new gestures being added but rather repititions of gestures that are already required. They are “unauthorized” but it isn’t the same as adding something completely new to the Mass. Just my take.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

From the USCCB:

[
Many Catholics are in the habit of holding their hands in the “Orans” posture during the Lord’s prayer along with the celebrant. Some do this on their own as a private devotional posture while some congregations make it a general practice for their communities.

Is this practice permissible under the current rubrics, either as a private practice not something adopted by a particular parish as a communal gesture?

No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.
](http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...posture/orans-or-open-hand-prayer-posture.cfm)

 

[Joannm]

Striking one’s breast during the Confiteor is, actually, a rubric. Okay, then don’t make the sign of the cross at the absolution. Fine. Don’t strike your breast during the Agnus Dei. Fine.

Did I say it’s not in the rubrics for the Confetior? My point was that you can’t make the argument that it is not in the rubrics if you don’t include all the other gestures that people do that are not in the rubrics.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Did I say it’s not in the rubrics for the Confetior? My point was that you can’t make the argument that it is not in the rubrics if you don’t include all the other gestures that people do that are not in the rubrics.

No, but I wanted to say it anyways.

And no, I don’t have to make a disclaimer for every little thing for my post to be effective.

 

[porthos11]

Did I say it’s not in the rubrics for the Confetior? My point was that you can’t make the argument that it is not in the rubrics if you don’t include all the other gestures that people do that are not in the rubrics.

That’s actually correct. By exactly that same logic, people should not be be beating their breasts at the Agnus Dei nor making the sign of the cross at the absolution.

 

[Corki]

Did I say it’s not in the rubrics for the Confetior? My point was that you can’t make the argument that it is not in the rubrics if you don’t include all the other gestures that people do that are not in the rubrics.

Actually, you can make that argument since the orans posture is not in the rubrics AT ALL for the non-ordained.

The more important distinction, IMHO, is that you never see a priest directing people to strike their breast at the Agnus Dei or to add extra signs of the cross to the Mass. But you do see priests directing the congregation to assume the orans posture.

 

[Joannm]

Actually, you can make that argument since the orans posture is not in the rubrics AT ALL for the non-ordained.

The more important distinction, IMHO, is that you never see a priest directing people to strike their breast at the Agnus Dei or to add extra signs of the cross to the Mass. But you do see priests directing the congregation to assume the orans posture.

I have never ever seen a priest directing any person what gestures to do except when to sit, stand or kneel and that was usually at a funeral mass.

 

[iloveangels]

There is nothing in the rubrics of the new translation that addresses this posture, except text that lets the priest know when to assume it.

The interesting thing is that since all the postures of the faithful and their responses are contained within the Roman Missal and the GIRM, one can assume that no other postures are allowed. Neither text mentions the orans posture at all as far as the laity is concerned, so it can be said that since it is not mentioned, it is not allowed. However, people will continue to do it, and priests will still allow it, until there is a positive declaration that it is not allowed.

If people knew how goofy they looked, standing there holding up air, they’d stop it. Just sayin’.

 

[Corki]

I have never ever seen a priest directing any person what gestures to do except when to sit, stand or kneel and that was usually at a funeral mass.

Lucky you. The priest at my kids parochial school gave this directive (orans) for both the school and the parish Masses. He even stopped Mass before the Our Father began to give a demonstration.

 

[thistle]

From the USCCB:

The problem is that although they say it is not prescribed they do not say it is forbidden which causes confusion.
I really don’t understand. It would be very simple to say in the GIRM that the faithful should not adopt the orans or half-orans position, or hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer. Then everyone would be clear on this.
Some might argue that the GIRM states what to do therefore by default anything else is not allowed. That would be fine except in the case of the Lord’s Prayer the GIRM does not say what the faithful should do.
Surely a simple instruction in the GIRM would sort all this out and avoid the thousands of heated arguments we have in these forums over this.

 

[TrueLight]

The problem is that although they say it is not prescribed they do not say it is forbidden which causes confusion.
I really don’t understand. It would be very simple to say in the GIRM that the faithful should not adopt the orans or half-orans position, or hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer. Then everyone would be clear on this.
Some might argue that the GIRM states what to do therefore by default anything else is not allowed. That would be fine except in the case of the Lord’s Prayer the GIRM does not say what the faithful should do.
Surely a simple instruction in the GIRM would sort all this out and avoid the thousands of heated arguments we have in these forums over this.

Like I have said before, there is a lot of unnecessary ambiguity in Church documents.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I really don’t understand. It would be very simple to say in the GIRM that the faithful should not adopt the orans or half-orans position, or hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer. Then everyone would be clear on this.

The orans position is an ancient posture of prayer. In catacomb art many people are depicted praying in that positions. So if an individual wishes to pray the Our Father in that position its not really that big of a deal.
Hand holding is problematic because it infringes upon others who don’t want to do it.

Surely a simple instruction in the GIRM would sort all this out and avoid the thousands of heated arguments we have in these forums over this.

While it causes heated discussions in internet forums, it doesn’t really cause too many problems for the Church compared to other issues…

 

[MarkThompson]

Like I have said before, there is a lot of unnecessary ambiguity in Church documents.

It is only “unnecessary” if you think it is fitting that the GIRM should take a position on this issue one way or the other (and be careful what you wish for). Clearly, the authorities of the Church have not seen fit to abrogate local variation or individual preference in this respect, so the absence of regulation (which is not an ambiguity) serves that purpose just fine.

 

[iloveangels]

The problem is that although they say it is not prescribed they do not say it is forbidden which causes confusion.
I really don’t understand. It would be very simple to say in the GIRM that the faithful should not adopt the orans or half-orans position, or hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer. Then everyone would be clear on this.
Some might argue that the GIRM states what to do therefore by default anything else is not allowed. That would be fine except in the case of the Lord’s Prayer the GIRM does not say what the faithful should do.
Surely a simple instruction in the GIRM would sort all this out and avoid the thousands of heated arguments we have in these forums over this.

It doesn’t say take off your pants and dance around like a leprechaun either. So are you going to do that next Sunday then??