New UK Ordinariate Mass with Elements of "Latin Mass"!

[codefro]

I wish we would please stop arguing about Cranmer’s heresy. Yes he was a major heretic but that is not the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is that the Anglican Ordinariates, not just in the UK but everywhere, now have a gorgeous liturgy.

 

[codefro]

The UK Ordinariate revealed their new mass yesterday which contains elements of the traditional “Latin Mass” such as the Last Gospel and the preparatory Prayers at the Foot of the Altar!!! Click here for more.:extrahappy:

I attend an Ordinariate parish, and the priest was curious why the new Anglican-Use Mass was already being celebrated as it is still being corrected of any textual mistakes. England may just want to be the first to celebrate the new liturgy as a symbolic gesture.

 

[porthos11]

I attend an Ordinariate parish, and the priest was curious why the new Anglican-Use Mass was already being celebrated as it is still being corrected of any textual mistakes. England may just want to be the first to celebrate the new liturgy as a symbolic gesture.

My understanding from talking to the pastor of St. John is that the Mass is in fact already approved.

 

[YoungTradCath]

My understanding from talking to the pastor of St. John is that the Mass is in fact already approved.

Yes, the Interdicasterial Commission Anglicanae Traditiones did the research and put this Missal together.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Looks beautiful! Well done

 

[Horacio]

I could see this Anglican-use Mass (is there a formal name for it?) easily becoming far more popular that the EF Mass in the US and other English-speaking countries depending on how it is allowed to be applied.

 

[ProVobis]

I could see this Anglican-use Mass (is there a formal name for it?) easily becoming far more popular that the EF Mass in the US and other English-speaking countries depending on how it is allowed to be applied.

Well, I hate to tell you this but I used to attend an annual pipe organ marathon at an Episcopal Cathedral in Chicago. The last year I attended I dropped in early for the last part of the service, which had no more than 10 people in the congregation. I’ll give you one guess as to how many people stayed for the organ recital. Yes, I was the only one for this annual event. Beautiful recital, though.

 

[Horacio]

Well, I hate to tell you this but I used to attend an annual pipe organ marathon at an Episcopal Cathedral in Chicago. The last year I attended I dropped in early for the last part of the service, which had no more than 10 people in the congregation. I’ll give you one guess as to how many people stayed for the organ recital. Yes, I was the only one for this annual event. Beautiful recital, though.

An “annual pipe organ marathon” is not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Nor is the Episcopal fellowship’s worship service.

 

[liturgyluver]

Well, I hate to tell you this but I used to attend an annual pipe organ marathon at an Episcopal Cathedral in Chicago. The last year I attended I dropped in early for the last part of the service, which had no more than 10 people in the congregation. I’ll give you one guess as to how many people stayed for the organ recital. Yes, I was the only one for this annual event. Beautiful recital, though.

That sounds really odd, but must be a pecularity to Chicago’s Cathedral as I recently saw some info about the All Souls Requiem mass in one of the Anglo-Catholic parishes in Chicago- it included an orchestra and a choir of 20 and the church looked packed. Certainly the big Anglican Cathedrals in London get vast numbers - over 1000- at their daily services, though unlike the US Cathedrals they have a fully choral service every day. All 3 have an organ recital every Sunday afternoon which again is packed out.

 

[YoungTradCath]

That sounds really odd, but must be a pecularity to Chicago’s Cathedral as I recently saw some info about the All Souls Requiem mass in one of the Anglo-Catholic parishes in Chicago- it included an orchestra and a choir of 20 and the church looked packed. Certainly the big Anglican Cathedrals in London get vast numbers - over 1000- at their daily services, though unlike the US Cathedrals they have a fully choral service every day. All 3 have an organ recital every Sunday afternoon which again is packed out.

I have always thought it very sad that US cathedrals are not “cathedrals” in the classic liturgical sense of a cathedral. Most(?) of them are just glorified parish churches and nothing more. When I read the liturgical documents I see a distinct ideal that a cathedral is supposed to be far more than just a glorified parish church, but usually, it seems, this is just interpreted as being a call for a cathedral to be little more than “the whole diocese’s parish!” or some other silly, mostly meaningless platitude.

I don’t know much about the health of parish liturgy in the UK–in fact I sense that the situation in the USA is on average better on that level–but I notice that, generally, Catholic cathedrals in the UK are much closer to the liturgical and functional ideal of a Catholic “cathedral” than those in the USA. I think this has to do with the lack of chapters of canons in the USA. I would love to see some American cathedrals to get chapters. Even if this is only a semi-active role, the pastors of the See cities could make up the chapters, for example.

 

[ProVobis]

That sounds really odd, but must be a pecularity to Chicago’s Cathedral as I recently saw some info about the All Souls Requiem mass in one of the Anglo-Catholic parishes in Chicago- it included an orchestra and a choir of 20 and the church looked packed. Certainly the big Anglican Cathedrals in London get vast numbers - over 1000- at their daily services, though unlike the US Cathedrals they have a fully choral service every day. All 3 have an organ recital every Sunday afternoon which again is packed out.

That more describes the Lutheran churches I’ve seen in the U.S. (or at least the Chicago area). Even the Presbyterian ones have magnificent pipe organs and great organ recitals.

OTOH, one Presbyterian church sold theirs to the FSSPX. Depends on the location I guess. Also the timing. I had been at St. James Episcopal Church before and they did have larger numbers of organ attendees but never more than 50-100. But being the only one that one time for one full hour made me most uncomfortable.

 

[StuMondo]

What is “the last gospel?”

 

[ProVobis]

What is “the last gospel?”

It’s actually the beginning of John’s Gospel.

“In principio erat Verbum…plenum gratiae et veritatis.” (In the beginning was the Word…full of grace and truth.)

 

[BernadetteM]

Going from my memory when the EF was the only Mass offered, the Last Gospel was always said. It was also always said in the Anglo Catholic parishes I attended.

I am waiting to see if our Holy Father and Rome has the final say on the Ordinariate parishes in the US to offer the EF, as I read Rome has said that they may celebrate it. The Ordinary in the US had said no several months ago and I believe he is greatly influenced by a certain Cardinal. Does anyone know if Rome has the final word? I know that one of the Ordinariate parishes uses both the Anglican Use and does also have the EF.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[ProVobis]

Bernadette, didn’t the Anglican Use have to conform to the new ICEL language, most notably the Canon? I can’t see how the Ordinariate can avoid this new language for too long, not in the states anyway.

 

[malphono]

I am waiting to see if our Holy Father and Rome has the final say on the Ordinariate parishes in the US to offer the EF, as I read Rome has said that they may celebrate it. The Ordinary in the US had said no several months ago and I believe he is greatly influenced by a certain Cardinal. Does anyone know if Rome has the final word? I know that one of the Ordinariate parishes uses both the Anglican Use and does also have the EF.

In theory, there should be no problem with the Usus Antiquior under the terms of Summorum Pontificum, since the Anglican Use is a usage of the Roman Rite and not a Rite per-se. Of course, what should be in theory and what will play out in fact are not necessarily even similar, much less the same.

Putting the resurrection of the Sarum Rite (which I would love to see an option in the Anglican Use) aside for the moment, I would have been much happier if the “new books” for UK Ordinariate included a Latin text side-by-side with the English (ala the Knox Missal). That would have given a clearer signal, and would likely have precluded much discussion of the Roman Rite Usus Antiquior in the first place.

 

[liturgyluver]

Bernadette, didn’t the Anglican Use have to conform to the new ICEL language, most notably the Canon? I can’t see how the Ordinariate can avoid this new language for too long, not in the states anyway.

I don’t think so -the version I saw was in Elizabethan English, good Sir!

 

[BernadetteM]

In theory, there should be no problem with the Usus Antiquior under the terms of Summorum Pontificum, since the Anglican Use is a usage of the Roman Rite and not a Rite per-se. Of course, what should be in theory and what will play out in fact are not necessarily even similar, much less the same.

Putting the resurrection of the Sarum Rite (which I would love to see an option in the Anglican Use) aside for the moment, I would have been much happier if the “new books” for UK Ordinariate included a Latin text side-by-side with the English (ala the Knox Missal). That would have given a clearer signal, and would likely have precluded much discussion of the Roman Rite Usus Antiquior in the first place.

Actually the Sarum Use has not to my knowledge been part of the Anglican Communion since at least Henry the 8th or Elizabeth.

The Ordinariate liturgy is very similar to what I recall as an Anglo Catholic, and yes the Roman Canon is used and has been used for over 30 years in Anglican Use parishes. If one were to research the Sarum Use, they would find that the Roman/Gregorian Canon is what was used in the Sarum Use. Of course it was in Old English.

At least in my Ordinariate parish we are still using the BDW and at times the choir sings in Latin one or two of the short responses from the OF, maybe because they are not popular. I know that most of the AU priests involved in the new Mass wanted it to be as close to the Anglican Missal as possible and also include the Preparatory Prayers at the altar and the last Gospel, which are not included in the OF Mass. At least I can’t see our priest reciting them before Mass. Just as in my OF parish Latin is used at times in some parishes for the Gloria, and Sanctus.

I think that many of the movements that have been lost in the OF have always been practiced in most Anglo Catholic parishes. There is so much bowing of the head and genuflecting that newcomers would be at a loss the first visit.

We must remember that all the little traditions that were popular 40 years ago in the Church are no longer done and Catholics are not familiar with them. Since I have not attended the EF, I don’t know if those traditions are still in effect.

I would not assume that this is temporary and that soon or in the future the Anglican Use will become the OF. People should realize that the Anglican Use liturgy has been in existence for over 30 years and there were very few parishes. Now with the Anglican Constitution, I believe Pope Benedict made sure that it would not be done away with.

Of course many Anglicans have been saying it will, as they are very unhappy that former Anglicans have now found the truth of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Just as Christians in the beginning had a slow start, look at it now. The Ordinariate is growing and will continue to do so. Pope Francis has now opened it up to Catholics who have not had their First Communion or Confirmation and it has always been open to protestants who want to become Catholics through the Ordinariate.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[LiturgicalChant]

I could see this Anglican-use Mass (is there a formal name for it?) easily becoming far more popular that the EF Mass in the US and other English-speaking countries depending on how it is allowed to be applied.

I agree, it could indeed come to be more popular than the “EF Mass”.
There are many profound signs that this could happen.

However in order for that to actually happen, it would need to conform to be as traditional as the older latin mass.

praytellblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/The-Offertory-Form-I.pdf

The Offertory (Form I)

Having prepared sufficient bread for communion, the Priest takes the paten with the bread and holds it slightly raised above the altar with both hands, saying in a low voice:

Receive, O holy Father, almighty and everlasting God, this spotless host, which I, thine unworthy servant, now offer unto thee, my living and true God, for my numberless sins, offences, and negligences; for all here present ; as also for the faithful in Christ, both the quick and the dead, that it may avail for their salvation and mine, unto life everlasting. Amen.

Then making a cross with the paten, he places the paten with the bread upon the corporal. The Deacon pours wine and a little water into the chalice, the Priest first blessing with the sign of the cross the water to be mixed in the chalice saying:

O God, who didst wondrously create, and yet more wondrously renew the dignity of man’s nature: Grant that by the mystery of this water and wine we may be made partakers of his divinity, as he vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, even Jesus Christ thy Son our Lord; who liveth and reigneth with thee in the u
nity of the Holy Spirit, one God, world without end. Amen.

Then he takes the chalice, and offers it, slightly elevating it and saying in a low voice: We offer unto thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, beseeching thy mercy, that it may ascend in the sight of thy divine majesty as a sweet smelling savour for our salvation, and for that of the whole world. Amen.

He makes the sign of the cross with the chalice and places it upon the corporal, and covers it with the pall. Then with hands joined upon the altar, bowing he says:

In a humble spirit, and with a contrite heart, may we be accepted of thee, O Lord, and so let our sacrifice be offered in thy sight this day, that it may be pleasing unto thee, O Lord our God

In most ways, it is indeed the ‘dream Mass text’ of Anglo-Catholics of old, and these are the good guys. God bless them. They have much–no, most–in common with Roman traditionalists. Of course, there are those in the new Ordinariates who do not qualify as traditionalists of any stripe. But some of them might be brought round to a different point of view once they see how glorious this new Rite is. Now the FiFers in England must ask themselves this question: is celebration of the N.O.M. sufficient to protect and advance any hint of an Anglican patrimony? Why should I say the New Roman Mass in the Ordinariate of our Lady of Walsingham when I could do the same thing for the local Roman diocese, especially when the pay and benefits are more secure in the latter place? Those from all three Ordinariates who want to foster and organically develop an Anglican-Catholic patrimony will now have to do this by accepting a Missal which is mostly Anglo-Catholic in content and tone (even though there are other options in it as well).

From a theological point of view, the overwhelming victory in this new text is the addition, even if only as an option, of the Traditional Roman Offertory in sacral English. This was not in the B.D.W. and is the principal fault of that Mass. **This victory for tradition is not merely important. It is all-important. As a traditionalist Roman, what I would like to say about the Novus Ordo Offertory is perhaps not printable. **But to avoid offending all the neo-cons here and everywhere, I’d start by saying that the new creature of Bugnini’s little Consilium ‘just forgets’ that the Mass is primarily a propitiatory Sacrifice and makes it look like only a sacrifice of thanksgiving and praise, and a memorial meal. That is the primary difference between, well, being Catholic and being Protestant.

With the Traditional Offertory restored to the Ordinariate Mass text, it now becomes possible for Ordinariate priests to celebrate a Mass that is unambiguously Catholic. The Divine Victim is no longer to be hidden under a bushel. This alone makes the approval of this new text a stupendous victory for tradition and for all who value that which is noble and that which is beautiful. There are other treasures in this new text (such as use of 1662 prayers instead of the horrid 1979 U.S. parallels from the prayerbook tradition). But the matter of the Offertory is what matters the most.

Despite one or two criticisms of the new text, my primary reaction can be summed up as a simple Alleluia.

from Peter Karl Perkins on

foolishnesstotheworld.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/pray-tell-blog-examines-our-new-ordinariate-liturgy/

At this point the Ordinary of the mass is in place and lines up with the EF enough to please practically anyone who likes the historic Latin form. However there remains a few Novus Ordo options for those who want them. Most parishes will surely use the traditional options for the Ordinary of the Mass, but that is going to bother some people.

The Ordinariate will have to make allowance for the one year Lectionary from either the Book of Common Prayer or Tridentine Mass. In both cases they are from Catholic Heritage, the readings of the BCP simply being those of the Salisbury use Mass from earlier before the reformation.

 

[malphono]

Actually the Sarum Use has not to my knowledge been part of the Anglican Communion since at least Henry the 8th or Elizabeth.

Cranmer killed it, of course (along with so much else), but I believe it was Queen Mary who attempted to restore the Sarum Rite… Unfortunately her efforts were for naught. More Cranmerian machinations at work.

But what I meant was that I would be thrilled if it were restored, at least as an option within the AU. There was some talk of this in the immediate post-Anglicanorum Coetibus days, but I’ve seen little, if anything, about it since.

It would have been nice if a Latin version of the AU was included. What I meant there was that such a version would likely have precluded the problem of the AU and the Usus Antiquior. There really would have been no need for the latter.