New UK Ordinariate Mass with Elements of "Latin Mass"!

[ProVobis]

I would have been much happier if the “new books” for UK Ordinariate included a Latin text side-by-side with the English (ala the Knox Missal). That would have given a clearer signal, and would likely have precluded much discussion of the Roman Rite Usus Antiquior in the first place.

FWIW, apparently the Knox Bible copyrights have been sold to Baronius Press. I once had the Knox Psalm 42 translation, which I was going to show and it made more sense, but it’s no longer accessible online.

 

[ProVobis]

O God, who didst wondrously create, and yet more wondrously renew the dignity of man’s nature: Grant that by the mystery of this water and wine we may be made partakers of his divinity, as he vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, even Jesus Christ thy Son our Lord; who liveth and reigneth with thee in the u
nity of the Holy Spirit, one God, world without end. Amen

FWIW, there are different wordings of this prayer in the different handmissals.

Interlinear:
Deus, qui humanæ substantiæ dignitatem
God, Who of human substance dignity

mirabiliter condidisti,
wonderfully has created,

et mirabilius reformasti:
and more wonderfully reformed:

da nobis per hujus aquæ et vini mysterium,
give to us through this of water and wine mystery,

ejus divinitatis esse consortes
His divinity to be partakers

qui humanitatis nostræ fieri dignatus est particeps,
Who in humanity our to become has granted partaker,

Jesus Christus Filius tuus Dominus noster:
Jesus Christ Son Your Lord our:

Qui tecum vivit et regnat
Who with You lives and reigns

in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus:
in union with Spirit Holy God:

per omnia sæcula sæculorum. Amen.
for all ages of ages. Amen.​

St. Joseph - “O God, Who hast established the nature of man in wondrous dignity, and still more admirably restored it, grant that through the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His Divinity, Who has condescended to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Lord. Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.”

My Sunday Missal - “O God, Who hast established the nature of man in wondrous dignity, and even more wonderously hast renewed it, grant that through the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His Divinity, Who has deigned to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Lord. Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God world without end. Amen.”

St. Andrew - “O God, Who in a wonderful manner didst create and ennoble human nature, and still more wonderfully hast renewed it; grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may be partakers of His divinity who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ Thy Son, our Lord: who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.”

Fr Lasance - “O God, Who in creating man didst exalt his nature very wonderfully and yet more wonderfully didst establish it anew: by the mystery signified in the mingling of this water and wine, grant us to have part in the Godhead of Him Who hath vouchsafed to share our manhood, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Lord, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God; world without end. Amen.”

Angelus - “O God, Who in creating human nature didst marvelously ennoble it, and hast still more marvelously renewed it: grant that by the mystery of this water and wine, we may be partakers of His Divinity Who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, Who liveth and reigned with Thee, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, one God, world without end. Amen.”

1857 Missal - “O God, who, in creating human nature, hast wonderfully dignified it, and still more wonderfully reformed it: grant that by the mystery of this Water and Wine, we may be partakers of his divine nature, who vouchsafed to become partaker of our human nature, namely, Jesus Christ one Lord, thy Son, in the unity of …”

Campion - “O God, Who in creating man didst exalt his nature very wonderfully and yet more wonderfully didst establish it anew by the mystery signified in the mingling of this water and wine, grant us to have part in the Godhead of Him Who hath vouchsafed to share our manhood Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Lord. WHo liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.”

 

[Horacio]

Going from my memory when the EF was the only Mass offered, the Last Gospel was always said. It was also always said in the Anglo Catholic parishes I attended.

I am waiting to see if our Holy Father and Rome has the final say on the Ordinariate parishes in the US to offer the EF, as I read Rome has said that they may celebrate it. The Ordinary in the US had said no several months ago and I believe he is greatly influenced by a certain Cardinal. Does anyone know if Rome has the final word? I know that one of the Ordinariate parishes uses both the Anglican Use and does also have the EF.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Why would they allow that? The single biggest reason the Ordinariate exists is to allow former Anglicans to preserve much of their liturgical heritage as they enter the Catholic Church. I suspect the EF will be specifically prohibited if they are pushed to render a position.

 

[LiturgicalChant]

Going from my memory when the EF was the only Mass offered, the Last Gospel was always said. It was also always said in the Anglo Catholic parishes I attended.

I am waiting to see if our Holy Father and Rome has the final say on the Ordinariate parishes in the US to offer the EF, as I read Rome has said that they may celebrate it. The Ordinary in the US had said no several months ago and I believe he is greatly influenced by a certain Cardinal. Does anyone know if Rome has the final word? I know that one of the Ordinariate parishes uses both the Anglican Use and does also have the EF.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Why would they allow that? The single biggest reason the Ordinariate exists is to allow former Anglicans to preserve much of their liturgical heritage as they enter the Catholic Church. I suspect the EF will be specifically prohibited if they are pushed to render a position.

The Ordinary of Our Lady of Walsingham under Monsignor Keith Newton, strongly encourages their priests to freely say the traditional latin mass as much as they feel appropropriate, anytime, anywhere, no questions asked… On the other hand this has not happened under Monsignor Jeffrey Steenson in the USA, instead there has been a bit of restriction toward it, mostly in that it ought not be on the official ordinariate church property, however, outside of the parish church, you are free to celebrate it anytime. It is a political difference which I do not personally understand.

The difference in in anglican history on both sides of the pond and difference in leadership between the American Ordinariate and the English Ordinariate allows such divergences to occur. Overtime it will be addressed. Rome does indeed have the final say… I think that eventually the policies in England, US and Canada will converge toward a greater unity than they currently have, but they currently are for the most part still on the same page as each other.

The parish you are thinking of that offers both the Anglican Use Mass and the Traditional latin mass may be Mt. Calvary in Baltimore, although in fact, the latin mass takes place at St. Alphonsus Church across the street from it technically. It is a very special community. The priests from Mt. Calvary are friends with the priest and Canons Regular of New Jerusalem 90 miles away, whose founder was also originally an Anglo-Catholic in the 1970’s. They sometimes concelebrate or go on pilgrimages together.

There are also a number of Anglican Use communities under the Ordinariate of St. Peter in the USA that happen to be held in churches that celebrate the traditional latin mass as well. The similarity of desired church architecture and mutually compatible reinforceable views on many matters cause this to happen.

St. Joseph of Arimathea Society in Indianapolis, Indiana, which does not yet have it’s own church building, celebrates the “Anglican Use” Mass at Holy Rosary Parish, which also has traditional latin mass celebrated by an FSSP priest at another time on the same Sunday. That is an especially good community, similar to Mt. Calvary but smaller.

The mass at Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Latin in Charlestown, WV and the Mass thats more in English at the Mt. Calvary parish in Baltimore, MD are not very distinguishable from each other, except for the fact that in Baltimore , so far as I know, uses the 3 year lectionary. Yet they continue to use the chants and propers from the one year lectionary in both english in latin. So the main difference is that the gospel reading will vary between them on many Sundays in the year.

The custom of Anglo-Catholicism is to mimic what is done in the Latin Mass, that’s all there is to say. Tradition knows no bounds, language wise. The tradition for Anglo Catholics and Roman Catholics is both the same Holy Mass. Cultural differences between them are too subtle for me to address at this time. It would be like telling someone the difference between Bulgarian Orthodox and Serbian Orthodox or Maronite and Syro-Jacobite Eastern Catholics. From an outsider, theres not much, but they do have subtle differences that are very meaningful to an insider.

 

[LiturgicalChant]

crisismagazine.com/2012/the-traditional-mass-is-not-a-spectator-sport

One trip to the monastery cemented it as the most edifying place of worship I’ve yet discovered. By the time I was hearing Dom Daniel’s thoughts about the proper role of the faithful in the traditional liturgy, I was hooked. This – this – was what I had been looking for all these years.

“We celebrate the traditional liturgy with great joy.” This statement, another part of Dom Daniel’s sermon, helps me put my finger on what is so different. Never known for our collective charisma or charm, those who self-identify as “Traditionalist” can often be about as much fun as a leaky bottle of lemon juice at a paper cut party. This is ironic when you consider that we believe the traditional Catholic experience is a “pearl of great price.” We should, therefore (if there’s any sense in the world) be a pretty happy, personable lot. And to be fair, I’d say that a good many of us are. Nevertheless, it only takes one bad egg to spoil the batch, and we’ve got dozens. Consequently, our bad reputation persists.

This is why seeing this kind of Christian joy in action in a monastic community that opens its doors to public worship is something else entirely. For starters, the monks – Dom Daniel, Frater John, Frater Alban – are so noticeably kind. At the conclusion of Mass, they mingle with the faithful, whom they take the time to get to know by name. They sell produce, and fresh baked breads, employing monastic industry to support their work. And if you forgot your wallet? No worries. They’ll probably spot you a loaf. They remember not only who you are, but what is going on in your life, and when they say they’re praying for your intentions, you get the feeling that they mean that they’re doing so with great specificity.

What this does is create a sense of community – something that I have found to be lacking in many traditional parishes I’ve attended or visited. Often times, the Traditional Latin Mass is attended by people from every far corner of the geographic area, creating a loose federation of individuals that know each other by face or even by name, but have little in the way of a sense of real common bond. It’s a lovely thing to have coffee and donuts in a Church basement as a means of socializing with your fellow parishioners, but it’s a different thing entirely when a priest and his confrères make you feel as though you’re a part of something more cohesive and organic.

This communal aspect is almost familial, and is rooted first and foremost in the liturgical experience. The CRNJs believe in a participatio actuosa that is neither the frenetic, hand-holding around the altar experience of many post-Vatican II parishes, nor the austere, entirely interior participation of those more inclined to chapels of the Society of St. Pius X. It is a human, natural, anthropological form of worship, where one is engaged but not coddled, involved but never given the sense that it’s all about them.

The chants — which are beautiful, in a simple, country monastery kind of way—are sung antiphonally, meaning that the schola and the faithful alternate voices. The faithful are encouraged to join the altar boys in making the responses to the priest, since the reason the altar boys make those responses at all in the first place is to act as representatives of the faithful. These aspects of liturgical participation may not seem groundbreaking to anyone who has been raised on the Novus Ordo Missae, and will not even come as a surprise to those Eastern Rite Catholics nourished on the ancient liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, but to the average traditional Catholic, they are (seeming) innovations that border on scandalous.

Except that they are not innovations at all.

From firsthand experience, I feel that what this group of Canons is striving for, is very similar to what the Anglican use parish of Mt. Calvary strives for. They are not identical, but the basic qualities are very close. They seem to me to represent the future of the Church, because they also represent very authentically her past.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t think so -the version I saw was in Elizabethan English, good Sir!

Americans will love that, I’m sure.

 

[porthos11]

I don’t think so -the version I saw was in Elizabethan English, good Sir!

Correct. Everything is in Tudor English, with the exception of the Lectionary readings, which come from the RSV Second Catholic Edition. The Canon is the one published in the English Missal, with some minor modifications from Rome.

The so-called Rite II of the Book of Divine Worship has been expressly disallowed, and if the former Anglicans want to celebrate according to a contemporary-language service, then the Roman Missal in the Ordinary Form is to be used.

 

[Chatter163]

Actually the Sarum Use has not to my knowledge been part of the Anglican Communion since at least Henry the 8th or Elizabeth.

The Ordinariate liturgy is very similar to what I recall as an Anglo Catholic, and yes the Roman Canon is used and has been used for over 30 years in Anglican Use parishes. If one were to research the Sarum Use, they would find that the Roman/Gregorian Canon is what was used in the Sarum Use. Of course it was in Old English.

Um, no, it was in Latin, as the entire Mass was in those days.

 

[ProVobis]

Um, no, it was in Latin, as the entire Mass was in those days.

It appears it is still being said. Somewhere.

youtube.com/watch?v=21pnAoiGnjs

youtube.com/watch?v=FA9MhN0ccmg&list=PL21A53061BB184FFB

 

[Chatter163]

It appears it is still being said. Somewhere.

youtube.com/watch?v=21pnAoiGnjs

youtube.com/watch?v=FA9MhN0ccmg&list=PL21A53061BB184FFB

Yes, I realize that, being a member of an an FSSP parish. I was responding to a post that seemed to be suggesting that the Roman Canon was said in “Old English” in the Sarum rite.

 

[codefro]

Why would they allow that? The single biggest reason the Ordinariate exists is to allow former Anglicans to preserve much of their liturgical heritage as they enter the Catholic Church. I suspect the EF will be specifically prohibited if they are pushed to render a position.

It is allowed. In England the majority of Ordinariate priests celebrating the OF Mass. They are allowed to celebrate the AU, EF, and OF masses. In the US, the Ordinary has forbidden the EF to be celebrated in an Ordinariate parish, but Ordinariate priests still have faculties to celebrate all 3 forms.

 

[porthos11]

It is allowed. In England the majority of Ordinariate priests celebrating the OF Mass. They are allowed to celebrate the AU, EF, and OF masses. In the US, the Ordinary has forbidden the EF to be celebrated in an Ordinariate parish, but Ordinariate priests still have faculties to celebrate all 3 forms.

The pastor of St. John deaconed at an FSSP Solemn High Mass some time ago at St. Anthony’s here in Calgary, where the FSSP apostolate is. However, he did confirm that the EF is not to be celebrated at St. John the Evangelist. What CAN be celebrated, though, is the Ordinary Form, and they celebrate it well, right now, as a spoken “low” Mass.

 

[Esrb99]

The pastor of St. John deaconed at an FSSP Solemn High Mass some time ago at St. Anthony’s here in Calgary, where the FSSP apostolate is. However, he did confirm that the EF is not to be celebrated at St. John the Evangelist. What CAN be celebrated, though, is the Ordinary Form, and they celebrate it well, right now, as a spoken “low” Mass.

I’ve heard this before, and I ahve a hard time understanding why. If the OF and EF are equally valid masses of the Roman Rite, and the Anglican Use priests’ mass is a special version of the Roman Rite (in general) and the priests can offer the OF… why not the EF???

It just seems silly.

 

[codefro]

I’ve heard this before, and I ahve a hard time understanding why. If the OF and EF are equally valid masses of the Roman Rite, and the Anglican Use priests’ mass is a special version of the Roman Rite (in general) and the priests can offer the OF… why not the EF???

It just seems silly.

It may be bias on the part of the ordinary, although the reasoning is because the Latin Mass is not part of the Anglican Patrimony. I myself disagree
, but I can see the reasoning. Again this is just in the US. In England it is not a problem.

 

[BernadetteM]

The problem is that Rome said Ordinariates, meaning all three of them and I didn’t see anything that said that the EF could not be celebrated in an AU parish.

I have been involved with this movement since the beginning and know that most of the former Anglicans wanted a certain priest to be made Ordinary. I have also heard that there was some politics in the choice, the person chosen, I believe, is less able to stand his ground and also was not Catholic for very many years as the other priest has been a Catholic priest for over 30 years and has done great things for the Ordinariate and those who are now part of the Ordinariate in the US.

We will have to wait and see if Pope Francis will oversee what is happening in the US Ordinariate.

It is too bad as many Catholics whether from an Anglican background or cradle ones would be more accessible to the EF if AU parishes also were able to offer the EF.

I don’t believe that the AU liturgy is more special than the OF or EF, it is just different and will appeal to some, just as the OF and EF appeal to others.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Esrb99]

It may be bias on the part of the ordinary, although the reasoning is because the Latin Mass is not part of the Anglican Patrimony. I myself disagree
, but I can see the reasoning. Again this is just in the US. In England it is not a problem.

Then why use the Ordinary Form? Surely, the EF is ‘closer’ in structure and aesthetics to the ‘Anglican patrimony’ (AKA Sarum) than the OF? After all, I’m sure any ordinariate priest can offer holy mass in latin in the OF. If that is the case, then I am still unable to see a reason.

 

[codefro]

Then why use the Ordinary Form? Surely, the EF is ‘closer’ in structure and aesthetics to the ‘Anglican patrimony’ (AKA Sarum) than the OF? After all, I’m sure any ordinariate priest can offer holy mass in latin in the OF. If that is the case, then I am still unable to see a reason.

To be honest I am not sure if the Ordinary even allows the OF to be celebrated in a Sunday Mass at an Ordinariate Parish. To my knowledge, I have not heard of a parish doing eith the EF or OF Mass, but only the AU. I have heard of some priests celebrating the AU in a fashion very similar to the OF Mass, but that’s about it.

 

[Symphorian]

Lots of photos of the inaugural Mass here:

(need to scroll down the linked page)

flickr.com/photos/ukordinariate

 

[liturgyluver]

It may be bias on the part of the ordinary, although the reasoning is because the Latin Mass is not part of the Anglican Patrimony. I myself disagree
, but I can see the reasoning. Again this is just in the US. In England it is not a problem.

Perhaps because the Church of England had a prayer book in Latin, used in Oxford?

 

[codefro]

Perhaps because the Church of England had a prayer book in Latin, used in Oxford?

Well this is why I disagree, first of all Latin was used in England before the Reformation. Now, post-Reformation I can see that the identity of Anglicanism was solidified using Elizabethan English. So, the immediate case is that the Anglican Patrimony DOES involve old English, but I do not see that the Patrimony cannot include Latin as that has a place in English history as well. Many “anglo-catholics” saught to use Latin devotions in their spiritual life- so it did have a place. I believe it should be open to the priest as I believe Summorum Pontificum should not stop at the Ordinariate. Just my humble two cents though.