New Vatican Document on Jews, Salvation, and Evangelization [Akin]

[Jack_Common]

Jews can be saved without converting to Christianity:

No they can’t.

The Council of Florence infallibly declared:

“[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been** added to the flock**; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

 

[SAVINGRACE]

No they can’t.

The Council of Florence infallibly declared:

Yes they can. Man does not decide who gets into Heaven. Only God does and his mercy has no boundaries.

Surprise… There will be people who were atheists, agnostics, Jews and muslims on earth but will enter Heaven. Some of these people are more christian than “so-called christians” in their actions, thoughts and words.

 

[Marian_Devotee]

No they can’t.

The Council of Florence infallibly declared:

Quote:
“[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Correct. This has been stated by both the Ordinary Magisterium and the Extraordinary Magisterium. It is binding dogma.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

I think we have to hold two things in tension here: “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (CCC 846) and “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments” (CCC 1257). Pius IX holds both truths in tension in Quanto conficiamur, nos. 7 to 8.

Florence defined that persons outside the Catholic Church must be “added to the flock” to be saved, but it does not specify the manner of their addition. In other words, the holy Council does not define that there must be in every case without exception, explicit, publicly visible and formal membership. Again, the Church does not say those things are unnecessary, but I’d be careful about saying there can be no extenuating circumstances. Invincible ignorance (though perhaps less common than some want to think), baptism of desire, and baptism of blood (CCC 1258) come to mind.

I don’t think infidels can be saved as such (see, e.g., Rom 1:20), but I think someone could come to believe in and adore the Triune God, and repent of his sins, without the opportunity to make a public profession of faith. (Though of course if he were in mortal sin and had no access to the sacraments, he’d need to make an act of perfect contrition, at least interiorly.)

 

[Ron_Conte]

Marian Devotee and Jack Common:

Florence taught dogma, but you have misunderstood that infallible truth.

The Magisterium is the sole authoritative interpreter of Tradition, Scripture, and past teachings of the Magisterium. And the Magisterium has taught that those who lack formal (or “external”) membership in the Church may still be in a state of grace and may still be saved. So we must interpret the teaching of the Council of Florence as referring to those who are culpably outside the Church, i.e. whose rejection of the Church is an actual mortal sin.

Pope John Paul II: “For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical ‘Redemptoris Missio,’ salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. Redemptoris Missio, n. 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded. In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a ‘yes’ to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church.” [All Salvation Comes Through Christ]

“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.” [Redemptoris Missio 10]

Pope Pius IX: “Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.” [Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, n. 7]

Non-Christians can enter the state of grace by a baptism of desire, then if their rejection of Christianity is not an actual mortal sin (due to invincible ignorance), then they remain in the state of grace. If they commit actual mortal sin in some way, they can return to the state of grace by perfect contrition. Therefore, they can die in the state of grace without converting to Christianity.

 

[Marian_Devotee]

Marian Devotee and Jack Common:

Florence taught dogma, but you have misunderstood that infallible truth.

The Magisterium is the sole authoritative interpreter of Tradition, Scripture, and past teachings of the Magisterium. And the Magisterium has taught that those who lack formal (or “external”) membership in the Church may still be in a state of grace and may still be saved. So we must interpret the teaching of the Council of Florence as referring to those who are culpably outside the Church, i.e. whose rejection of the Church is an actual mortal sin.

Pope John Paul II: “For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical ‘Redemptoris Missio,’ salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. Redemptoris Missio, n. 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded. In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a ‘yes’ to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church.” [All Salvation Comes Through Christ]

“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.” [Redemptoris Missio 10]

Pope Pius IX: “Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.” [Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, n. 7]

Non-Christians can enter the state of grace by a baptism of desire, then if their rejection of Christianity is not an actual mortal sin (due to invincible ignorance), then they remain in the state of grace. If they commit actual mortal sin in some way, they can return to the state of grace by perfect contrition. Therefore, they can die in the state of grace without converting to Christianity.

Two of my favorites saints, Alphonsus Liguori and Thomas Aquinas, touched on this notion. On the Semipelagians, St Alphonsus speaks of they who “arrived at the use of reason and are not converted to the Faith, cannot be excused, because though they do not receive sufficient proximate Grace, still they are not deprived of remote Grace, as a means of becoming converted.” He then uses an example from the Angelic doctor: “… if any one was brought up in the wilds, or even among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of natural reason, to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe either that God, by an internal inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send some one to preach the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius.” So according to St. Thomas, Our Lord would give “remotely”, those with use of reason, Grace to obtain salvation. That is, through Our Lord’s merits, they would receive the grace sufficient to embrace the Faith.
Link here
In other words, that person would come into the Faith, not die without having converted.

As regards infallible dogma, bear in mind, too, that we are not permitted to depart from that which Holy Mother Church has taught, in an effort to obtain a more profound understanding. This was declared at the First Vatican Council (which you can look at here Chapter 4: On Faith and Reason. It is toward the bottom)

 

[steve_b]

Marian Devotee and Jack Common:

Florence taught dogma, but you have misunderstood that infallible truth.

The Magisterium is the sole authoritative interpreter of Tradition, Scripture, and past teachings of the Magisterium. And the Magisterium has taught that those who lack formal (or “external”) membership in the Church may still be in a state of grace and **may **still be saved.

As we know, may is a possibility. May ≠ will (as in ≠ does not equal)
R:

So we must interpret the teaching of the Council of Florence as referring to those who are culpably outside the Church, i.e. whose rejection of the Church is an actual mortal sin.

Yes. People need to know a wrong is gravely wrong, then willfully do it, or remain in it.
R:

Pope John Paul II: “For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical ‘Redemptoris Missio,’ salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. Redemptoris Missio, n. 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded. In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a ‘yes’ to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church.” [All Salvation Comes Through Christ]

“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.” [Redemptoris Missio 10]

Pope Pius IX: "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching.

Yes, liberal / modernist thought

Pius IX liberalism etc. papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

Pius X , Modernism etc papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm

Lots of people fall into that mindset and erroneous thinking
R:

There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments." [Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, n. 7]

Non-Christians can enter the state of grace by a baptism of desire, then if their rejection of Christianity is not an actual mortal sin (due to invincible ignorance), then they remain in the state of grace. If they commit actual mortal sin in some way, they can return to the state of grace by perfect contrition. Therefore, they can die in the state of grace without converting to Christianity.

Perfect vs imperfect contrition
1452
1492

there was a thread on invincible ignorance #14

 

[Ron_Conte]

The magisterial teachings of Pope Saint John Paul II in Redemptoris Missio require religious assent, even if some Saints in the past opined to the contrary.

"The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.

"For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that ‘this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God.’ " [RM 10]

We must be careful not to fall into the error of Feeneyism, which claims that only those who are baptized with water are saved.

 

[fred_conty]

The Council of Florence infallibly declared:

The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

This says “…unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock…”

This was written “way back when” … before the current developement defining the way others may now belong to the church although imperfectly. So these pagans, Jews and others may now belong to the Chruch according to what has recently been taught.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

CCC 848 Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.

Lumen Gentium:

1. …Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

Pope Pius IX’s Quanto conficiamur moerore

1. …There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

Pope Pius IX’s Singulari Quadam:

It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who live in ignorance of the true religion, if such ignorance be invincible, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. But then, who would dare to set limits to this ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of people., lands, native talents, and so many other factors?

 

[Genesis315]

The Council of Florence infallibly declared:

This says “…unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock…”

This was written “way back when” … before the current developement defining the way others may now belong to the church although imperfectly. So these pagans, Jews and others may now belong to the Church according to what has recently been taught.

It may be from “way back then” but they knew about the other forms of belonging even back then. In fact, in the early sessions of that very Council (when it was still being held at Basel, before being transferred to Ferrara and then Florence) the revelations of St. Bridget were evaluated for doctrinal problems and none were found–those revelations contain explicit references to Jews and pagans being saved (the Council refused to say they were supernatural or authentic, but only that they were doctrinally safe and could be published).

After speaking of all those displeasing to God including bad Christians and obstinate non-Christians, God notes:
Revelations to St. Bridget:

With regard to you, Jew, I make an exception for all the Jews who are secretly Christians and who serve me in sincere charity and upright faith and perfect works in secret. And with regard to you, Pagan, I make an exception for all those who would gladly walk in the way of my commandments, if only they knew how and if they were instructed, but who try to put into practice as much as they know and are able.

Again, He explains the conditions for their salvation after discussing those who are condemned who did not believe in the true God or receive baptism:
Revelations to St. Bridget:

If there was nothing that held them back from seeking the true God and being baptized, neither fear nor the effort required nor loss of goods or privileges, but only some impediment that overcame their human weakness, then I, who saw Cornelius and the centurion while they were still not baptized, know how to give them a higher and more perfect reward in accordance with their faith.

Finally, He explains how those non-Christians, in particular the Jews, can have that faith and desire:
Revelation to St. Bridget:

The fourth ones are those Jews and pagans who would like to be Christians, if they only knew how and in what way to please my Son and if only they had a helper. They hear from people in neighboring regions everyday, and also know from the appeals of love within themselves, as well as from other signs, how much my Son has done and suffered for everyone. This is why they cry out to him in their conscience and say:

‘O Lord, we have heard that you promised to give yourself to us. So we are waiting for you. Come and fulfill your promise! We see and understand that there is no divine power in those who are worshiped as gods, no love of souls, no appreciation of chastity. We only find in them carnal motives, a love for the honors of the present world. We know about the Law and hear about the great works you have performed in mercy and justice. We hear from the sayings of your prophets that they were awaiting you whom they had foretold. So come, kind Lord! We would like to give ourselves to you, because we understand that in you there is love for souls, the right use of all things, perfect purity, and life everlasting. Come without delay and enlighten us, for we are nearly dead from waiting for you!’ That is how they cry out to my Son.

 

[steve_b]

The magisterial teachings of Pope Saint John Paul II in Redemptoris Missio require religious assent, even if some Saints in the past opined to the contrary.

"The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.

"For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that ‘this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God.’ " [RM 10]

We must be careful not to fall into the error of Feeneyism, which claims that only those who are baptized with water are saved.

Just as we need to avoid falling into the error of relativism. All the right caveats are in place. That said, it’s never been so easy to access information as it is today. That’s why one’s ignorance of something they should know or study, isn’t presumed to always be innocent. 1791

 

[Ron_Conte]

Just as we need to avoid falling into the error of relativism. All the right caveats are in place. That said, it’s never been so easy to access information as it is today. That’s why one’s ignorance of something they should know or study, isn’t presumed to always be innocent. 1791

Mere information is not sufficient to establish guilt. Christians commit grave sins, and argue among themselves, and commit some serious crimes, making it harder to realize that Christianity is true. And modern culture has much influence over people, putting forward ideas that seem true, because they are so widely approved, yet are contrary to Christianity. And then a person’s own experiences in life also come into play. So invincible ignorance is not a mere lack of information. It means that the person does not realize that, of all the contradictory ideas presented in society, Christianity is true and of paramount importance to life.

Someone already posted this, but it bears repeating:

Pope Pius IX Singulari Quadam:
It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who live in ignorance of the true religion, if such ignorance be invincible, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. But then, who would dare to set limits to this ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of people, lands, native talents, and so many other factors?

 

[steve_b]

Mere information is not sufficient to establish guilt. Christians commit grave sins, and argue among themselves, and commit some serious crimes, making it harder to realize that Christianity is true. And modern culture has much influence over people, putting forward ideas that seem true, because they are so widely approved, yet are contrary to Christianity. And then a person’s own experiences in life also come into play. So invincible ignorance is not a mere lack of information. It means that the person does not realize that, of all the contradictory ideas presented in society, Christianity is true and of paramount importance to life.

Someone already posted this, but it bears repeating:

Pope Pius IX Singulari Quadam:
It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who live in ignorance of the true religion, if such ignorance be invincible, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. But then, who would dare to set limits to this ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of people, lands, native talents, and so many other factors?

I don’t find that quote in Singulari Quadam papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lab.htm

Maybe you’re thinking of Pope Pius IX’s Quanto conficiamur moerore

God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth 1 Timothy 2:4

If you will, that shows me, He stacks the deck in advance, in His favor, for our own good, by writing His laws on our hearts at our conception Hebrews 8:10. Unless we bury this gift by our sins, we will by nature want to seek Him. We are already disposed by nature to want to know Him. Bottom line, No one is predestined to hell. That’s the heresy of double predestination.

Re: Ignorance, it isn’t always innocent 1791

Re: invincible ignorance, it isn’t voluntary but involuntary.#**14 **
much of that is taken from newadvent.org/summa/2076.htm

 

[Ron_Conte]

“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.” Pope Piux IX, Singulari Quidem, 1856 [not Pius X, Singulari Quadam]

“For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things?” Denzinger 1647, Pope Piux IX, allocution Singulari Quadem, 1854