C
Christinetjones
Guest
Can you tell me where in scripture it tell us that we are to use New Wine (i.e. grape juice) instead of wine with alcohol?
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W
workingman
Guest
It does not anyplace that I have found. Nor does it say though that it is wine in the Cup. That is assumed as most likely as the grapes fermented quickly since their was not a preservation process.
A
Adonia
Guest
Just stop and think of it a minute. Christ came into Jerusalem,so Our Lord and the Apostles got a room for the Passover Sedar, and just like all the other religious Jews of the time they brought some wine and the sedar food. Now, wine is wine, it has an alcoholic content. I could never understand this “new wine” business that some folks go on and on about. Makes me think of an evangelical Christian who tried to lay that stuff on memany years ago. I wasn’t buying it then and I’m not buying it now!
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bluelake
Guest
chris,
I have heard of New Wine, but I’d have to look this up to refresh my memory .
I don’t think it refers to Holy Communion.
There is a scripture referring to new wine being put in old wine skins, but I don’t think that is what you are referring to, is it?
God bless,
bluelake
See 1Cor.11:23-26, Jn.6:51-57 Holy Communion is a Sacrament in most churches.
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nuntym
Guest
Uhm, i think “new” wine is dangerous to drink in those days.
Wine is the main way to disinfect water back then. The ancients make very strong wine, high in ethanol, which is then diluted with water before consumption. The ethanol in the wine disinfects the water, making it safe for drinking.
That is why during the Mass water is mixed with the wine.
Wine is the main way to disinfect water back then. The ancients make very strong wine, high in ethanol, which is then diluted with water before consumption. The ethanol in the wine disinfects the water, making it safe for drinking.
That is why during the Mass water is mixed with the wine.
J
Joe_Kelley
Guest
Note Acts 2:13
Why would grape juice cause them to act that way? It seems quite clear that new wine had a significant alcoholic concentration.
I
IHeartAquinas
Guest
I thought the reason water was mixed with the wine is that Catholicism teaches that water and wine both spilled from Jesus’ side once pierced by the spear?
If the ancients brewed such strong wine as a means for disinfecting water, why don’t the EO mix water and wine? They deny that water spilled from Jesus’ side, so the doctrinal argument makes more sense to me.
If the ancients brewed such strong wine as a means for disinfecting water, why don’t the EO mix water and wine? They deny that water spilled from Jesus’ side, so the doctrinal argument makes more sense to me.
C
Cluny
Guest
It was water and blood, not water and wine.
The mixture of wine and water was a Jewish custom at the time at ceremoniala meals, including but not limited to the Passover.
The ancients had no concept of disinfecting. Nobody knew about the connection between microbes and disease until Louis Pasteur
Grape juice starts to ferment the minute the grapes are crushed from the yeast that floats on the air and lands on the skins. And when the alcoholic content reaches about 11%–22 proof or so, depending on the strain of yeast–fermentation stops automatically, because the alcohol kills the yeast.
Finally:
Where on earth did you get the idea that the Orthodox do not mix water and wine? Or that Orthodox deny that water spilled from Jesus’ side?
When the priest is preparing the Chalice, he quotes the words from John’s Gospel: “And one of the soldiers pierced His side with a lance. Immediately blood [pours the wine] and water [pours the water] came out, and he who saw it bears record, and his record is true.”
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nuntym
Guest
No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
1 Timothy 5:23 (RSV)
Oh.
C
Cluny
Guest
And you think this means disinfecting?
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nuntym
Guest
I mean that the ancient world knew that drinking water mixed with wine was safer than drinking water alone back then, as most water sources in those times were not as clean as we have water right now.
B
bluelake
Guest
The first miracle Christ performed was to change the water into wine. Jn.2:1-11
I don’t think it was grape juice, do you?
Is it the Baptists who do not accept this first miracle?
God bless,
bluelake
P
peary
Guest
Grape juice is not wine. It is ‘processed’ juice from grapes. It isn’t fermented, and it certainly has no place at Mass.
There is non-alcoholic wine, but I am not sure on the Church’s position about this.
Non-alcoholic grape juice was not available until 1869 when it was invented by Dr. Thomas Welch. (It’s called Welch’s Grape Juice for a reason.) Welch was a Methodist teetotaller who objected to taking communion with wine and who wanted a non-alcoholic alternative. So after experimentation he succeeded in developing what he called “unfermented wine.” Even then it was not called grape juice, that name coming into use when his son took over marketing in 1875.
R
ralphinal
Guest
The reason new wine cannot be put into old skins is because the new wine has not finished fermenting. As the sugar becomes alcohol, gas is released. IF you put it into skins that have no give, they will bust open.
The passage in Acts may not mean the same kind of new wine. More than likely, it means wine that was reserved or not yet opened. Pentecost was a Jewish feast, and the implications, at least to me, is that they were being accused of starting the party early.
As it has been noted, grape juice naturally becomes wine unless the process is stopped. THe ability to stop it was not discovered until recently.
The passage in Acts may not mean the same kind of new wine. More than likely, it means wine that was reserved or not yet opened. Pentecost was a Jewish feast, and the implications, at least to me, is that they were being accused of starting the party early.
As it has been noted, grape juice naturally becomes wine unless the process is stopped. THe ability to stop it was not discovered until recently.
P
peary
Guest
Well…not exactly. If the process is not done in a precise and correct manner, the grape juice ferments into vinegar.
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ralphinal
Guest
But it does fermentWell…not exactly. If the process is not done in a precise and correct manner, the grape juice ferments into vinegar.
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rev_kevin
Guest
Tell me where in scripture it tell you to use a round white wafer instead of bread. You can’t say that the wafer or host is ok and in the same breath say that using grape juice isn’t. You say that Jesus used wine with alcohol not grape juice and we want to be correct but we’re going to use something other then what Jesus used to represent his body. Sounds kinda of hypocritical to me saying we can use something eles as his body but you can’t use grape juice to represent his blood. You can’t have it both ways.
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peary
Guest
You want to drink vinegar?
P
peary
Guest
Unleavened wheat. That is what the wafer or host is made of…unleavened flour same as on the day of Passover at the Last Supper. The reason it looks the way it does is that it was adopted as standard due to the missionaries. bread turns rancid and moldy. The wafer was easier to transport. Also, the Church considers the Host the Sacred body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ Himself. any crumbs that would fall because an unleavened loaf was used was considered Sacred. To solve that problem, the communion wafer was standardized.
Grape juice is not wine. And there is no hypocrisy. The Church follows its own Bible.
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rev_kevin
Guest
OK But it was changed from the original bread which is like a peta bread. So what your saying is its ok to change it because the original would get moldy. But isn’t wine made of grapes so the same would be right for the grape juice if someone or some religion don’t drink alcohol correct.
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