New wine, old wineskins?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Glennonite
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
G

Glennonite

Guest
I have never understood Mk 2:22. I understand that unfermented wine will expand and stretch the skin of its container as it ferments, thus breaking an already stretched “old wineskin.” But I don’t understand the analogy. I cannot even remember anyone explaining its meaning as with the parables. Anyone?

One other question that I’ll try to slip in: If God is infinite, then there is no place that He is not. True? If hell is were souls are eternally separate from God, then doesn’t that put a boundary where God is not? i.e. bounded, therefore, not infinite? This has always bothered me.

Glennonite
 
Glennonite said:
I have never understood Mk 2:22. I understand that unfermented wine will expand and stretch the skin of its container as it ferments, thus breaking an already stretched “old wineskin.” But I don’t understand the analogy. I cannot even remember anyone explaining its meaning as with the parables. Anyone?

One other question that I’ll try to slip in: If God is infinite, then there is no place that He is not. True? If hell is were souls are eternally separate from God, then doesn’t that put a boundary where God is not? i.e. bounded, therefore, not infinite? This has always bothered me.

Glennonite
Click to expand...
As for your first question, the broader context of the verse is Jesus’ violation of social and religious norms of his day: eating with tax collectors and sinners, not fasting and picking grain on the Sabbath. I think Jesus is asserting that if you are trying to fit what he is doing into traditional structures and ways of thinking, you’re going to have a mess on your hands–which arguably is exactly what happened.

And as of the second, since God is omnipresent, it doesn’t seem that he couldn’t NOT be present in hell. So it seems that the only logical alternatives would be to either rethink one’s idea of hell or one’s idea of omnipresence? I’d say the former is more likely to be misunderstood.

Lol, this sounds like one of those: “Can God create a boulder so huge that he couldn’t lift it?” questions. 🙂
 
"quote

I have never understood Mk 2:22. I understand that unfermented wine will expand and stretch the skin of its container as it ferments, thus breaking an already stretched “old wineskin.” But I don’t understand the analogy. I cannot even remember anyone explaining its meaning as with the parables. Anyone?

One other question that I’ll try to slip in: If God is infinite, then there is no place that He is not. True? If hell is were souls are eternally separate from God, then doesn’t that put a boundary where God is not? i.e. bounded, therefore, not infinite? This has always bothered me.

“And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: otherwise the wine will burst the bottles, and both the wine will be spilled, and the bottles will be lost. But new wine must be put into new bottles.” Matt 2:22

My understanding of this parable is that Christ is speaking of himself as the new covenant. God’s covenant with his people prior consisted of the law brought to the Israelites by Moses. That was the old wine and the old bottles were his chosen people. The new wine is the new covenant and the new bottles are the believers of Christ. He wanted to convey that his resurrection wouldn’t have been effective and/or justified if it had been meant for only the Jew. It turns out that as it was, many Jews of the time did not come to believe, as the Gospel indicates. Putting the new wine into the new bottles makes perfect sense now that we can see with hindsight as the fresh bottles symbolize those renewed in faith by baptism in the Holy Spirit (consisting of both Jew and Gentile alike).

Some here may have a completely different take as I’m sure there are varying teachings
on this parable and this is just what occurs to me.

The other question may be better suited for a different thread as I’ve seen some serious discussion on that topic elsewhere.

Blessings to all,
Shaun
 
Glennonite said:
One other question that I’ll try to slip in: If God is infinite, then there is no place that He is not. True? If hell is were souls are eternally separate from God, then doesn’t that put a boundary where God is not? i.e. bounded, therefore, not infinite? This has always bothered me.
Click to expand...
My understanding of this is that you are right, there is nowhere that God does NOT exist - however there are also different degrees of His presence (ie: The Eucharist more so than in Scripture, more so than a patch of barren land, etc…). God would be “present” in Hell to the lowest degree possible, which is that He knows about it and everything in it as well as the fact that He simply allows it all to exist in the first place. Nothing can continue to exist from moment to moment without God’s continuous will to keep it there, and I don’t see any reason Hell would be an exception.
 
Regarding New Wine in Old Wineskins.

The Old Wineskin is the Old Covenant Israel. They can’t take the New Wine that Jesus is giving in the Gospel under the Old Covenant, hence Jesus gives them (and us) New Wine in the form of the New Covenant - The Church.

Has anyone noticed the little “inside humor” that St. Luke uses in Acts Chapter 2? When the Pentecost comes and Peter and the Twelve are preaching in tongues, what is the Jews gripe? Acts 2:13 - ***But others said, scoffing, “They have had too much new wine.”
 
Dave_Noonan said:
As for your first question, the broader context of the verse is Jesus’ violation of social and religious norms of his day: eating with tax collectors and sinners, not fasting and picking grain on the Sabbath. I think Jesus is asserting that if you are trying to fit what he is doing into traditional structures and ways of thinking, you’re going to have a mess on your hands–which arguably is exactly what happened.

And as of the second, since God is omnipresent, it doesn’t seem that he couldn’t NOT be present in hell. So it seems that the only logical alternatives would be to either rethink one’s idea of hell or one’s idea of omnipresence? I’d say the former is more likely to be misunderstood.

Lol, this sounds like one of those: “Can God create a boulder so huge that he couldn’t lift it?” questions. 🙂
Click to expand...
Ohhhh. New way of thinking won’t be in step with the old traditions…or visa versa. Thanks; it’s kinda easy to see now that you explain it. 🙂

Yeah, the ooold God and his big boulder paradox; I was hoping you weren’t going to say that. Thanks though.

Glennonite
 
"
Sheadad said:
“And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: otherwise the wine will burst the bottles, and both the wine will be spilled, and the bottles will be lost. But new wine must be put into new bottles.” Matt 2:22

Some here may have a completely different take as I’m sure there are varying teachings
on this parable and this is just what occurs to me.

The other question may be better suited for a different thread as I’ve seen some serious discussion on that topic elsewhere.

Blessings to all,
Shaun
Click to expand...
"
Thanks Shaun, I appriciate your take. If you could “zero” me in on that other thread, I’d like to check it out as well.

Glennonite
 
[37] And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: otherwise the new wine will break the bottles, and it will be spilled, and the bottles will be lost. [38] But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. [39] And no man drinking old, hath presently a mind to new: for he saith, The old is better.
-Luke 5:37-39
 
God is everywhere. True. Although God is everywhere, we are not always connected to Him. Everytime I sin, I turn my back on Him.I am sorry Jesus! Heaven is the beatific vision. We see God as he really is. To see God, I must be pure in heart. Hence pergatory is a place where our souls can be purged with fire as to become pure and prepared to meet God. Hell is simply defined as an eternal separation from God. God is omnipresent, but many souls in this age and the age to come are not aware of His Presence. Even the atheist in our present age are drawn towards God, but deny His Soft Voice by turning to created things and carnal pleasures to ignore His Being.Hell is eternal separation from God! Instead of viewing it as a place, view it as a state of mind. Like always craving Chocolate or Ice Cream, but being unable to indulge! Try a lifetime of this frustration and try gnawing and gnashing your teeth. It is horific. God is omnipresent, but all souls are not connected to Him. Heaven is eternal connection to God. psalm 34:8 Taste and see that the Lord is Good. Try an eternity of tasting and seeing that the Lord is Good. The Saints know that the leader of our salvation was made perfect through suffering. They know it because they lived it. Take courage I have conquered the world. Be not afraid! Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ.Amen.
 
Old wine will burst bottles?

That’s ridiculous and illustrates the problems with these newer translations of scripture.
 
Remember that the two parables (sewing new cloth onto old cloth and pouring new wine into old wineskins) were told in the context of a wedding and fasting.

The Pharisees were trying to drive a wedge between Christ and his followers by pointing out that Christ did not fast on the days that Jews traditionally fasted on - at least once per year on the Day of Atonement, and even weekly based on the ascetic life of John the Baptist.

All through the OT, God spoke of his love for the Jews as a spousal love. Jesus invoked this imagery - surely to be known to the Jews - when he talked about how the guests of the bridegroom did not fast while the bridegroom was with them. He then foretells his own Passion and death when he says (unbeknownst to them) that the bridegroom (Himself) would be taken away, and then the fasting would begin.

The “old cloth” and the “old wineskins” represented “containers” for the Old Covenant (as mentioned above), and they served their function well.

But with Jesus, the Kingdom of God is coming, and along with it, a new way of salvation that simply could not fit into the strictures of the old institutions that the Jews had lived within for generations.

Although a parable, the discussion of the “new wine” was a specific reference to the pouring of Jesus’s blood - something that would be so abundant that nothing before could even hope to contain what that blood entailed.

The new wineskins refer to the heart of men, and how they should be “pliable” to ensure their ability to accept the abundance that is about to pour forth from Jesus through his Passion and death.
 
Glennonite said:
I have never understood Mk 2:22. I understand that unfermented wine will expand and stretch the skin of its container as it ferments, thus breaking an already stretched “old wineskin.” But I don’t understand the analogy. I cannot even remember anyone explaining its meaning as with the parables. Anyone?

One other question that I’ll try to slip in: If God is infinite, then there is no place that He is not. True? If hell is were souls are eternally separate from God, then doesn’t that put a boundary where God is not? i.e. bounded, therefore, not infinite? This has always bothered me.

Glennonite
Click to expand...
Jesus did not come to destroy the old law nor to change it. He came to perfect it!

Jesus is the new wine. Jesus wants to safeguard the “old wineskins” so they don’t burst by putting “new wine” in them. New wine - new wineskins. This way the old and the new are preserved.
 
steve53 said:
Old wine will **burst **bottles?

That’s ridiculous and illustrates the problems with these newer translations of scripture.
Click to expand...
  1. gas pressure increase as new wine ferments
  2. inflexible old skins
gives rise to ?? 🤷

[Fri] askous, ou, o
leather bag; especially bottle made of skin, wineskin MT 9.17
 
I was reading this passage on Christmas Eve in Catholic Answers magazine and I had a thought-could this verse be referring to Mary’s sinlessness? Jesus is the new and pure wine placed in the equally pure and spotless Virgin Mary? Therefore both are ‘preserved?’
 
my understanding of the verse has always been that one cannot receive the teachings of Christ, the new interpretation and fulfillment of the law unless and until one experiences conversion, complete turning away from sin and becoming a new birth, a new creation, through baptism. If one tries to take only part of the teaching or layer it over existing notions one cannot be saved because the new faith will not take root. this is colored of course by my RCIA experience and I may have heard it somewhere in preparation for this ministry.
 
Lk 5:39 And no one after drinking the old wine wants the new wine, for he says, the old is better.

My understanding is

out with the OT, in with the NT. Can’t have both,
thats why we have still have the Jewish faith and the Christian faith, and a mixture of both.
 
Glennonite said:
I have never understood Mk 2:22. I understand that unfermented wine will expand and stretch the skin of its container as it ferments, thus breaking an already stretched “old wineskin.” But I don’t understand the analogy. I cannot even remember anyone explaining its meaning as with the parables. Anyone?

One other question that I’ll try to slip in: If God is infinite, then there is no place that He is not. True? If hell is were souls are eternally separate from God, then doesn’t that put a boundary where God is not? i.e. bounded, therefore, not infinite? This has always bothered me.

Glennonite
Click to expand...
He speaks about the folly of men in their spiritual faith. That they pour new wine into old wine skins is like men taking new knowledge and adding it to old knowledge; both have substance, both are imperfect due to sin. The new knowlege bursts the confines of the old and both are ruined. It doesn’t have to be knowledge, it could be faith in it’s place or the new and old covenants. You have to think about it as the imperfections of the sinners due to sin that both the Old and New are corrupted within the sinner.

Jesus says he makes all things new so that the last part of the parable makes sense: They pour new wine into new wine skins. God renews us in knowledge, faith, in the Old and New Covenant and the new wine is then poured into new wine skins.

God is Omnipresent, meaning he is everywhere. God is even present in hell. Is just that those who are in hell do not perceive God’s presence.
 
Luvtosew said:
Lk 5:39 And no one after drinking the old wine wants the new wine, for he says, the old is better.

My understanding is

out with the OT, in with the NT. Can’t have both,
thats why we have still have the Jewish faith and the Christian faith, and a mixture of both.
Click to expand...
Actually, the Old Covenant is the New Covenant fulfilled by Jesus.
 
Glennonite said:
I have never understood Mk 2:22. I understand that unfermented wine will expand and stretch the skin of its container as it ferments, thus breaking an already stretched “old wineskin.” But I don’t understand the analogy. I cannot even remember anyone explaining its meaning as with the parables. Anyone?

One other question that I’ll try to slip in: If God is infinite, then there is no place that He is not. True? If hell is were souls are eternally separate from God, then doesn’t that put a boundary where God is not? i.e. bounded, therefore, not infinite? This has always bothered me.

Glennonite
Click to expand...
It’s like if you make two things into one. If they are not compatible they divide and destroy eachother. If you have a New Covenant and an Old Covenant yet you do not see how they are compatible with eachother, the wineskin bursts and both the New and the Old are ruined within the person. If you have new faith and combine it with old faith and the two are not made for eachother then both burst and are ruined. However, the last part of the parable–You put new wine into new wine skins is much like Jesus when he says, Behold, I make all things new! If the Old is renewed (made new) then it becomes a new wineskin for new wine. The Old Covenant becomes the New, in the New Covenant. The two are made into one because they can exist together.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top