new wine

[BlestOne]

So What do the Baptists think happened to grape juice before pasteurization and refrigeration?? Just curious… but isn’t it obvious that there wasn’t either of these in Biblical times? Geez… next thing ya know they will think there was electricity for refrigeration too…

 

[Todd_Easton]

There is an article at wikipedia about “Christianity and Alcohol” that might be helpful. It says that in Palestine, grapes are harvested from late August to September and that the grape juice completely ferments into alcholic wine in about six weeks. It seems to me that from this one can infer that any grape-derived beverage consumed in Palestine from about November to late August must be alcoholic wine. The Jewish Passover occurs within this period in the spring. So Jesus and his apostles must have had alcoholic wine at the Last Supper.

 

[fhansen]

There is an article at wikipedia about “Christianity and Alcohol” that might be helpful. It says that in Palestine, grapes are harvested from late August to September and that the grape juice completely ferments into alcholic wine in about six weeks. It seems to me that from this one can infer that any grape-derived beverage consumed in Palestine from about November to late August must be alcoholic wine. The Jewish Passover occurs within this period in the spring. So Jesus and his apostles must have had alcoholic wine at the Last Supper.

Climate and harvest dates are similiar to California and grape juice will get through the greater part of fermentation here in as little as 1-2 weeks. Also, all fermented foods such as wine, cheese, and even bread are preserved foods and can last months and, especially in the case of wine of course, even years, .

 

[RodneyJ]

Lets look at the comparison:

“He’s Catholic” is to “I’m not”

as

“Heaven” is to “Hell”

I see no problem here.

Haha. Nice job.

I’m not so sure he meant it that way, but I like your version better. ;-)

 

[fhansen]

I posted this in a different thread but it probably should’ve gone here.

Under the category of “Arguments Against Various Silly Claims That Jesus and all True Christians Hate Wine”, I once heard a Pentecostal pastor comment that wine was unnatural because it required human intervention in order to be made and somehow that meant the Savior wouldn’t have partaken in it. But I’ve forgotten crushed chardonnay grapes in a coffee can for two weeks and come back to find wine. The conditions for fermentation and conversion of sugar to ETOH are not at all unique and adequate native yeasts abound in the environment.

 

[Mighty_Q]

I posted this in a different thread but it probably should’ve gone here.

Under the category of “Arguments Against Various Silly Claims That Jesus and all True Christians Hate Wine”, I once heard a Pentecostal pastor comment that wine was unnatural because it required human intervention in order to be made and somehow that meant the Savior wouldn’t have partaken in it. But I’ve forgotten crushed chardonnay grapes in a coffee can for two weeks and come back to find wine. The conditions for fermentation and conversion of sugar to ETOH are not at all unique and adequate native yeasts abound in the environment.

That “white stuff” on grapes is yeast.

 

[Church_Militant]

My wife and I have some really dear friends that attend an Independent Fundamental Baptist church.

I took martial arts with their pastor when I was attending a Wesleyan church and he was talking to me about a fighter, Ken Shamrock, who is Catholic. He said there was a big difference between Shamrock and himself and I asked what it was… "He’s Catholic… and I’m not. That difference is like Heaven and Hell.

"

Our friends don’t treat us different and I hope it stays that way, but I do pray that God will guard their minds and hearts.Well he’s only half right…the other difference is that Ken Skamrock can probably kick his shoulder blades off.

 

[BRB]

Problem with alot of misunderstanding is proper context. Also, hearing what you want to hear …

For example: Isaiah 29:9 “be drunk, but not with wine”

and knowing about the Nazerite vow to not touch wine.

These verses and O.T. biblical traditions, combined with seeing the awful effects of alcoholism in our society … convince many Protestants that wine could not possibly be good for us.

One would think they would be most interested in what Jesus taught about the wine, plus what Paul said on subject … but, once one’s mind has closed on a topic … its hard for the brain to accept new teachings.

We all have ‘blind spots’ in our understanding. Thats why every so often, if we re-examine our conscience … we will hopefully discover our eyes have been opened on particular aspects of our Christian beliefs.

Look at our first Pope Peter. And his belief on the uncleaness of Gentiles. He need a vision … and arm twisting by Paul on circumcision, to change his opinion on these subjects. And, he had access to all the O.T. scriptures that Christianity was also to include the Gentiles. Why could he not of seen this earlier in his ministry ?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Problem with alot of misunderstanding is proper context. Also, hearing what you want to hear …

For example: Isaiah 29:9 “be drunk, but not with wine”

and knowing about the Nazerite vow to not touch wine.

These verses and O.T. biblical traditions, combined with seeing the awful effects of alcoholism in our society … convince many Protestants that wine could not possibly be good for us.

One would think they would be most interested in what Jesus taught about the wine, plus what Paul said on subject … but, once one’s mind has closed on a topic … its hard for the brain to accept new teachings.

We all have ‘blind spots’ in our understanding. Thats why every so often, if we re-examine our conscience … we will hopefully discover our eyes have been opened on particular aspects of our Christian beliefs.

Look at our first Pope Peter. And his belief on the uncleaness of Gentiles. He need a vision … and arm twisting by Paul on circumcision, to change his opinion on these subjects. And, he had access to all the O.T. scriptures that Christianity was also to include the Gentiles. Why could he not of seen this earlier in his ministry ?

Agree context is important. But some that are committed to a self interpretation through literal read make it impossible to reason with. Only the Holy Spirit can reach these people.

Everything in moderation.

Salt is considered bad in certain quantities but here we have a cultural artifact in scripture since salt was widely used - even as currency.

Luke 14:34-35: "Salt is good, but if salt itself loses its taste, with what can its flavor be restored? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.

This our of context could be used to justify anything.

(Phil 4:5 KJV) Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

This is a popular marajuana advocacy group’s verse:

He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine that maketh glad the heart of man and oil to make his face to shineth. (Psalm 104:14-15)

One can easily use common sense to see that wine in moderation, especially in the sacramentals, is “real wine” and there is absolutely nothing wrong with drinking it. It are the extremist of substance and of words that make things sinful.

James