Newly Engaged! NFP Recommendations?

[choose_to_love]

@dan daly: lifeisbeutiful’s link above is to the Vatican site. In HV 10, quoted above, the translation is “serious”. In HV 16, the term is “well-grounded”. Your contention, then, is that the Vatican website translation is incorrect, yes?

the latin version is on the Vatican site too.

 

[Dan_Daly]

@dan daly: lifeisbeutiful’s link above is to the Vatican site. In HV 10, quoted above, the translation is “serious”. In HV 16, the term is “well-grounded”. Your contention, then, is that the Vatican website translation is incorrect, yes?

the latin version is on the Vatican site too.

There have also been official Church translations of HV which used the term “grave” instead of serious. I believe this was the case with the original English translation at the time HV was issued.

The question of “grave” vs “serious” still leaves us in the same problem, certainly grave is more severe, but just as there is not a black and white list of grave reasons, there isn’t one of serious reasons either.

Pax and God bless.

 

[Katie966]

The question of “grave” vs “serious” still leaves us in the same problem, certainly grave is more severe, but just as there is not a black and white list of grave reasons, there isn’t one of serious reasons either.

Which is precisely why you can’t point out anyone in particular and tell them it’s immoral if they use NFP. There is a good reason there is no list- because it would be impossible to capture every couple’s unique situation. It’s something that has to be discerned. By the couple.

 

[Castello]

Which is precisely why you can’t point out anyone in particular and tell them it’s immoral if they use NFP. There is a good reason there is no list- because it would be impossible to capture every couple’s unique situation. It’s something that has to be discerned. By the couple.

By a couple when both have a well formed conscience, and after consultation with a good priest.

 

[choose_to_love]

@castello: where in HV does it state that a couple must consult with a good priest before making their prayerful decision to achieve or postpone? Is it stated elsewhere? I am not sure is Casti Connubi has anything to say about that, off the top of my head, but I don’t think it does either.

I agree if it is available, take advantage of that resource (that is, good spritual counsel from a priest), but I do not recall any teaching specifically stating that. However, I think that is true for any major decision. It will still come down to discernment between husband, wife, and what God’s will is for them for a particular month.

FWIW, I think this is a remarkable trust that God places in us. He trusts us to discern when to co-create a life with an eternal soul, and I think it is tremendously freeing.

 

[Katie966]

By a couple when both have a well formed conscience, and after consultation with a good priest.

A couple is not required to consult with a priest. Perhaps if a couple needs guidance, then they would be wise to seek it out, but it’s not always a necessity. This is not church teaching.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Which is precisely why you can’t point out anyone in particular and tell them it’s immoral if they use NFP. There is a good reason there is no list- because it would be impossible to capture every couple’s unique situation. It’s something that has to be discerned. By the couple.

I understand your point, there are unique circumstances in each marriage, however the idea that those unique circumstances make it impossible and innappropriate for anyone outside of the spouses to say anything useful regarding a decision to try avoiding children is absurd.

Say I come on here and say that I’ve decided to attempt avoiding children for serious reasons. What reason you ask? Well the grocery store ran out of rocky road ice cream, and that’s my favorite kind. The lack of rocky road is stressing me out so much that I can’t devote the proper attention to being a father at this time, so I will do everything I can to avoid having children.

What’s that you say? That’s not a serious reason? Who are you to judge me? I’ve discerned it with my spouse and WE think it’s a serious/grave reason and that is all we need.

Now that is absolutely ridiculous, but that is what you are advocating by suggesting that the individual is the final arbiter of what is right and wrong. The idea of placing the will of the individual above the authority of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and denying that it must be formed by sound teaching is totally alien to the Catholic Faith.

Marriage is NOT a private matter. The “stay out of my bedroom/my private life” argument is the exact same argument used to justify contraception, divorce, fornication, sodomy, and abortion. Marriage is a PUBLIC covenant.

Pax and God bless.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Furthermore, the continual calls for anyone who thinks using NFP to try avoiding children in a particular circumstance may not be appropriate to simply…shut up…rings of a great insecurity. Marriage is for adults. If someone can’t handle hearing different views and then coming to a decision, it’s arguable they aren’t ready for adult responsiblities. In fact, a wise adult often seeks out differing views on an issue, hears arguments from all sides, and then makes a decision based on what they learn. If they disagree with someone, then can be comfortable enough in their own decision making, not to be threatened by the fact that someone else arrived at a different conclusion.

As far as I can recall, no one advocating a far more selective use of NFP than what is apparently taught at most pre-Cana classes has told those they disagree with that they have no right to air their own views. On the other hand, those like myself, are told frequently that our views are not only wrong (a fair thing to argue), but that those views should not even be expressed.

Pax and God bless.

 

[Rence]

I understand your point, there are unique circumstances in each marriage, however the idea that those unique circumstances make it impossible and innappropriate for anyone outside of the spouses to say anything useful regarding a decision to try avoiding children is absurd.

…

Marriage is NOT a private matter. The “stay out of my bedroom/my private life” argument is the exact same argument used to justify contraception, divorce, fornication, sodomy, and abortion. Marriage is a PUBLIC covenant.

Pax and God bless.

I’m just curious, you don’t have to answer this one, but: Do you interject your opinions/views on married couples in real life? I mean, you say that marriage is not a private matter, and is actually a public matter, so do you interject your views on your neighbors, coworkers, and friends as you have to the OP on this thread? And how is your intervention received by them? I’ve had people come to be for contraceptive advice because I’m a nurse…but I’ve never approached anyone. How do you actually engage these folks? or are they the ones opening the dialog with you?

 

[Dan_Daly]

It depends on the particular circumstances. I would disagree that I’ve foisted my views upon the OP out of the blue in this discussion. They came on the forum and started the discussion.

In “real” life, I do indeed engage people both about individual circumstances and larger societal issues (so-called gay marriage for example). How I would engage someone depends on the circumstances- who are they, how well do I know them, what setting are we in, etc.

A Catholic apologetics forum- the setting of this particular discussion- is a very appropriate place for Catholic apologetics, I think.

I find it very interesting, that there are all kinds of issues discussed on these boards- problems with spouses, kids, in-laws, questions about contraception, abortion, divorce, and so on. All very intimate and “personal” questions. Nobody seems to have any problem with folks on here offering advice, as long as that advice is rooted in Catholic teaching and offered in charity. Not surprisingly, different people sometimes offer different advice.

However, NFP seems to be a magical issue, in that it is one of the few topics of discussion in which offering advice is condemned rather than welcomed.

Pax and God bless.

 

[choose_to_love]

@dan daly: I think you are arguing against a straw man here. I don’t read katie966 as saying that a couple doesn’t need to form their conscience or that the individual is the final arbiter of right and wrong. What I hear her saying is that, in this thread, based upon the information made available by the OP, one cannot tell if there is an issue regarding the seriousness of the reasons that the couple has discerned, and further, she was not seeking (name removed by moderator)ut on that aspect of the decision to use NFP.

That being said, it will still be up to the couple to discern what is grave, serious, just, or well-grounded reasons for postponing a pregnancy. The couple doesn’t get to decide the principle, but they are the ones who will do the application of the principle to their life.

FWIW, I do not think you or anyone else was judging the OP by stating some parameters for NFP use. I do not think you are stating them correctly, but as you said, we can discuss that. I also agree with your earlier position that while we cannot judge an individual or couple’s culpability, we can, and indeed must, judge whether actions are right or not.

Still further, are we not supposed to assume the best motivations about our fellows? It seems it is within reason to think the OP would want to finish school before beginning her family - - what if the husband dies and she must support the family? I am assuming it would be easier for her to get a job, and one capable of supporting a family, with her degree finished. She really hasn’t provided any info about their discernment process, and I think she specifically said she didn’t want to get into it. But in charity I think we must assume that she and her fiance’ did so and will continue to discern God’s will for them once they are, in fact, married. That may change a whole lot.

 

[Dan_Daly]

@dan daly: I think you are arguing against a straw man here. I don’t read katie966 as saying that a couple doesn’t need to form their conscience or that the individual is the final arbiter of right and wrong. What I hear her saying is that, in this thread, based upon the information made available by the OP, one cannot tell if there is an issue regarding the seriousness of the reasons that the couple has discerned, and further, she was not seeking (name removed by moderator)ut on that aspect of the decision to use NFP.

That being said, it will still be up to the couple to discern what is grave, serious, just, or well-grounded reasons for postponing a pregnancy. The couple doesn’t get to decide the principle, but they are the ones who will do the application of the principle to their life.

FWIW, I do not think you or anyone else was judging the OP by stating some parameters for NFP use. I do not think you are stating them correctly, but as you said, we can discuss that. I also agree with your earlier position that while we cannot judge an individual or couple’s culpability, we can, and indeed must, judge whether actions are right or not.

Still further, are we not supposed to assume the best motivations about our fellows? It seems it is within reason to think the OP would want to finish school before beginning her family - - what if the husband dies and she must support the family? I am assuming it would be easier for her to get a job, and one capable of supporting a family, with her degree finished. She really hasn’t provided any info about their discernment process, and I think she specifically said she didn’t want to get into it. But in charity I think we must assume that she and her fiance’ did so and will continue to discern God’s will for them once they are, in fact, married. That may change a whole lot.

Fairly put.

What raised my concern was the OP’s initial statement that it would not be a big deal if they did have a baby during the period they were going to try avoiding having a baby. At first brush, that doesn’t sound like grave or serious to me.

The OP hasn’t elaborated on that comment, so I can’t tell if my concern was justified or misplaced. Miscommunication is certainly an easy thing to do when talking online.

I hope that the OP and others reading the thread take all that was said by all commenters in a spirit of charity and that we would all grow to a greater understanding of God’s will and a submission of our will to His.

Pax and God bless.

 

[Katie966]

@dan daly: I think you are arguing against a straw man here. I don’t read katie966 as saying that a couple doesn’t need to form their conscience or that the individual is the final arbiter of right and wrong. What I hear her saying is that, in this thread, based upon the information made available by the OP, one cannot tell if there is an issue regarding the seriousness of the reasons that the couple has discerned, and further, she was not seeking (name removed by moderator)ut on that aspect of the decision to use NFP.

Yes- that is what I meant. Thank you.

 

[Castello]

A couple is not required to consult with a priest. Perhaps if a couple needs guidance, then they would be wise to seek it out, but it’s not always a necessity. This is not church teaching.

Why is marriage the one sacrament we want to keep those silly priests out of? Our pastor is there to pastor us in all aspects of our spiritual life, that includes our sacramental marriage.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Fairly put.

What raised my concern was the OP’s initial statement that it would not be a big deal if they did have a baby during the period they were going to try avoiding having a baby. At first brush, that doesn’t sound like grave or serious to me.

The OP hasn’t elaborated on that comment, so I can’t tell if my concern was justified or misplaced. Miscommunication is certainly an easy thing to do when talking online.

I hope that the OP and others reading the thread take all that was said by all commenters in a spirit of charity and that we would all grow to a greater understanding of God’s will and a submission of our will to His.

Pax and God bless.

I have not been following this thread completely, so I am not sure of what has been said along the way, but I think you brought up something that is a somewhat common issue on the forums…
We cannot judge others, we know that, and we are called to help others understand the Truth (in a humble manner, with utmost Charity, etc)… and serious/just/grave reasons to use NFP can only be discerned by the couple (as they are the only ones that know their specific circumstances, and when they die, it will be on their shoulders)… they can receive guidance from a spiritual advisor, and they have to form their conscience in order to be able to discern…
Now I think the issue here is that people will state their reasons as to why they are avoiding and so I can see how that would cause some to react if the reasons are not clearcut serious/grave ones… There is a large group of people that lurk around here that are not posters but do come here to read and so on one hand we don’t know the whole story, but on the other hand if someone states they would be ok having another child and that they are avoiding to make things easier, even though odds are there is much more to the story that lead the couple to discern they had serious enough reasons to avoid, it seems like a good idea to just put it out there that we need to have a good reason to avoid and that marriage/sex is ordered towards procreation. The OP may be aware of this, but it is good to be clear so that other people that might read about using NFP when they are able to have another child to make things easy know that they need serious/just/grave reasons (like the OP has discerned) and should not simply do it to make things easy, after all, as Christians we are not called to seek the easiest paths, but the most Holy (which tend to be the most difficult from an Earthly point of view).

As a side note, although it is going on a tangent of the OP’s question, I definitely do not think it is judgemental to share advice like the one shared by the poster below:

Read, study, learn. Understand that NFP is not the default for marriage. It is the acceptable alternative to abstaining completely when you have a serious reason to delay pregnancy.

The way marriage is designed is you get married and you have sex and you welcome babies.

There are people that are not aware of this, and it is good advice for a soon to be married…

 

[choose_to_love]

@castello: but that’s not what you said. You said that consultation with a priest was a part of the discernment process for the couple. Katie966 pointed out the discernment is by the couple, and you qualified that to a couple with a well-formed conscience and after consultation with a priest. No church document says that for NFP use to be licit, the couple must consult with a priest, as far as I am aware. I gather by your most recent post you are essentially agreeing that spiritual counsel is a good idea for any serious discernment, and we can all agree on that. What we do not agree on, is that such consultation is required by the Church prior to a couple using NFP to avoid. You have made the statement, but I do not think you can substantiate it. Something being a good idea does not equal it being required by the Church.

I can envision pretty easily areas of the world where no priest is regularly available for such consultation. Heck, I live in the States and it is hard to find a good spiritual director.

I think it is obvious that God speaking through the Church He established for just such reasons does have something to say about marriage, contraception, etc., so I am not trying to keep priests out of marriage; but you are stating a standard that does not exist, as far as I can tell, when you state that consultation with a priest is necessary for the use of NFP.

 

[Katie966]

Why is marriage the one sacrament we want to keep those silly priests out of? Our pastor is there to pastor us in all aspects of our spiritual life, that includes our sacramental marriage.

I never said anything about keeping priests out of marriage. Nor do I think they should be. You are saying that it is a requirement that a couple consult with a priest before practicing NFP; that’s simply not true. Sometimes a couple needs this type of guidance, and sometimes it isn’t necessary. If you can provide an official church teaching that specifies that every couple must meet with a priest and get “permission”, I will gladly adhere to it.

Anyway, choose to love explained my thoughts exactly, above. You’re proposing that people adhere to a standard that doesn’t exist.

 

[Castello]

I never said anything about keeping priests out of marriage. Nor do I think they should be. You are saying that it is a requirement that a couple consult with a priest before practicing NFP; that’s simply not true. Sometimes a couple needs this type of guidance, and sometimes it isn’t necessary. If you can provide an official church teaching that specifies that every couple must meet with a priest and get “permission”, I will gladly adhere to it.

Anyway, choose to love explained my thoughts exactly, above. You’re proposing that people adhere to a standard that doesn’t exist.

Catholics are required to meet with their pastor to prepare for marriage.

Catholics are required to meet with a priest on a regular basis for confession.

Why on earth would a married Catholic NOT discuss something as important as delaying the primary reason for marriage with their priest? Really, we need a book to tell us to do that?

 

[Katie966]

Catholics are required to meet with their pastor to prepare for marriage.

Catholics are required to meet with a priest on a regular basis for confession.

Why on earth would a married Catholic NOT discuss something as important as delaying the primary reason for marriage with their priest? Really, we need a book to tell us to do that?

Just because it is your opinion that people should, is no reason to impose your standards on other people and act as though it is Church doctrine. It might be advisable, if a couple is having trouble discerning what is or is not a serious reason. But if a couple has prayerfully discerned that they will use NFP, and they do not feel as though it is necessary to consult with a priest, they have no obligation to do so.

 

[emmar]

I think another point to bring forward is that each priest is different. For example my priest cannot comprehend why PPD is a reason to avoid…really??? Just saying, have heard many different answers from many different pries’s on this. The general consensus I get, sometimes you have to make the best decision for you that will help you be as good a parent as you can be to the kids you already have. Having a child is a heavy burden, that I don’t think a priest can ever truly understand or anyone who has never had kids as well. So, I think you will get many different answers to this question.