News Article: Mormon aversion to the cross due to the anti-Catholicism of their leaders

[zerinus]

Ridiculous. Many in the Church were anti-semitic, yes. But the Church has never been anti-semitic. Christ is a Jew, and to be anti-semitic, is to be anti-christ. There is no doctrine of anti-semitism in the Church, and therefore the Church has never been anti-semitic.

The Pope apologized for the sins of the Catholic Church, not of individuals; and other people understood it that way. Here is one link among many. And here too!

zerinus

 

[ParkerD]

Christine,
I wanted to thank you again for being able to look at “both sides of the coin” on a number issues that come up for discussion. (I agree that Christ and the Apostle Paul were trying to get the attention of the Jewish followers such as the Pharisees to change their ways and recognize the Messiah promised to the world, by understanding the Old Testament prophecies being fulfilled before their eyes.)

On the issue of how Mormons may perceive the use of a cross to reflect deeply held personal beliefs in Jesus Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world, I expect that there may have been a gradual change over time, in how, for example, a parent might react if their child were to ask, “Mommy, Julie wears one–why can’t I?” I would expect that an LDS parent of today would explain that that is an expression of Julie’s faith and religion, but that the LDS expression of their faith and religion may be symbolized by a “Choose the Right” (CTR) ring worn by children and youth (based on if they want to wear one)–a visible outward symbol of an inward commitment to purity and faith. I could also imagine a parent of fifty years ago perhaps answering, “we just don’t believe in wearing a cross” with no further explanation, which might leave the child with a wrong impression.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Christine,
I wanted to thank you again for being able to look at “both sides of the coin” on a number issues that come up for discussion. (I agree that Christ and the Apostle Paul were trying to get the attention of the Jewish followers such as the Pharisees to change their ways and recognize the Messiah promised to the world, by understanding the Old Testament prophecies being fulfilled before their eyes.)

On the issue of how Mormons may perceive the use of a cross to reflect deeply held personal beliefs in Jesus Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world, I expect that there may have been a gradual change over time, in how, for example, a parent might react if their child were to ask, “Mommy, Julie wears one–why can’t I?” I would expect that an LDS parent of today would explain that that is an expression of Julie’s faith and religion, but that the LDS expression of their faith and religion may be symbolized by a “Choose the Right” (CTR) ring worn by children and youth (based on if they want to wear one)–a visible outward symbol of an inward commitment to purity and faith. I could also imagine a parent of fifty years ago perhaps answering, “we just don’t believe in wearing a cross” with no further explanation, which might leave the child with a wrong impression.

Parker, I firmly believe that the only way people who call themselves Christians can live up to that beautiful reality is to respect one another’s religious practices, even if they are not exactly the same as their own. And I do respect you and your church, and your Christianity.

Now as for the cross, I don’t think it was ever a giant symbol in the Mormon Church, but surely Mormons acknowledge that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for mankind.

However, I wouldn’t expect a Mormon to wear a 4-way cross (the back of it is inscribed “I’m a Catholic, call a Priest”) ! But you might be interested to see what it looks like.

What does the CTR ring look like and represent?

 

[mormonpro]

I repeat what I said in another post. These folks are not genuine Catholics. Most of them are Mormon apostates who have opted for Catholicism as a suitable platform from which to bash Mormonism. They no more believe in Catholicism than they believe in Mormonism. They tend to congregate in places such as these, and they shout louder than anybody else, and so they exert a disproportionate influence. Anybody coming here would think that all Catholics are like that, which of course is not the case. The vast majority of Catholics are honest, decent, fair-minded people. They give the rest of Catholics a bad name. They only thing that keeps them alive is that other people (especially Mormons) reply to them. If they were ignored they would soon die away.

zerinus

Z quoted his past article so I will repeat my response to it on this thread. We are here defending Christs Catholic church and putting down the heresy of Mormonism because we are winning big time!!! As admitted by these Presidents of the mormons ”The LDS church Newspaper Deseret Morning News Published: Thursday, Feb. 14, 2008 reported: “Late President Gordon B. Hinckley once told the Quorum of the Twelve, “Brethren, when my life is finished and the final services are concluding, I am going to rise up as I go by, look each of you in the eye and say, 'How are we doing on retention?”’ The new President of the LDS church Thomas Monson, has stated that retention of members will be his primary focus. Retention has become a real focus. For you don’t need an abacus to know many members have left the building. What happened to them?”
In the United States, Mormons are departing from the faith as fast as converts are joining. Converts rarely remain active in the Mormon Church. Graphing activity: When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the church’s net growth was zero percent.
What is the official Mormon reaction to the articles stating that there are significantly less than 12 million members worldwide? This is from a Salt Lake Tribune article Sep. 1st, 2005 quoting Merrill Bateman, a Mormon Seventy
“…He agreed the LDS Church’s worldwide membership, reported at 12 million, includes many who no longer consider themselves Mormon, but he disagreed with researchers who estimated active Mormons equal only 4 million.
Point: do not be afraid to aggressively help your friends see the truth about Mormonism. Many have left and many more will leave, it is only a matter of someone telling the truth to those who are honest enough to hear it. People like Z are probably paid to be here and defend the mormons, they couldn’t possibly be honest or they would have left the mormons long ago in the face of the mountain of evidence showing mormonism is an easily proved, silly fraud…

 

[dianaiad]

Parker, I firmly believe that the only way people who call themselves Christians can live up to that beautiful reality is to respect one another’s religious practices, even if they are not exactly the same as their own. And I do respect you and your church, and your Christianity.

Now as for the cross, I don’t think it was ever a giant symbol in the Mormon Church, but surely Mormons acknowledge that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for mankind.

However, I wouldn’t expect a Mormon to wear a 4-way cross (the back of it is inscribed “I’m a Catholic, call a Priest”) ! But you might be interested to see what it looks like.

What does the CTR ring look like and represent?

It has historically been a simple visual aid for Primary children about to turn 8 and be baptized; one of those cheap little rings that don’t quite meet all the way around the finger, and is thus adjustable. the top simply has the letters “CTR,” which means “choose the right.”

the WWJD people stole the idea from us.

About, oh, thirty years or so ago it became a bit of a fad for young people to keep wearing them after primary years, and even to make the CTR crest in more expensive rings. Some young couples even made them engagement or wedding rings (a fad, thank heaven, that isn’t all that big).

But it remains a little more widely worn than it was when I was a little girl and was given one in Primary.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

It has historically been a simple visual aid for Primary children about to turn 8 and be baptized; one of those cheap little rings that don’t quite meet all the way around the finger, and is thus adjustable. the top simply has the letters “CTR,” which means “choose the right.”

the WWJD people stole the idea from us.

About, oh, thirty years or so ago it became a bit of a fad for young people to keep wearing them after primary years, and even to make the CTR crest in more expensive rings. Some young couples even made them engagement or wedding rings (a fad, thank heaven, that isn’t all that big).

But it remains a little more widely worn than it was when I was a little girl and was given one in Primary.

Thanks! Another thing I have learned that I had no knowledge of before.

 

[Finrock]

Parker, I firmly believe that the only way people who call themselves Christians can live up to that beautiful reality is to respect one another’s religious practices, even if they are not exactly the same as their own. And I do respect you and your church, and your Christianity.

Now as for the cross, I don’t think it was ever a giant symbol in the Mormon Church, but surely Mormons acknowledge that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for mankind.

However, I wouldn’t expect a Mormon to wear a 4-way cross (the back of it is inscribed “I’m a Catholic, call a Priest”) ! But you might be interested to see what it looks like.

What does the CTR ring look like and represent?

Good afternoon Christine77! I hope you are doing well today. I don’t know if we’ve interacted before, but if not, then I’d like to say that I’m glad to make your acquaintance. Also, thank you for the benevolence that you show in your posts. I admire it very much!

I wanted to answer your question about the CTR ring and also, although you didn’t ask a question about this, I wanted to confirm that the Mormon church recognizes the atonement to have started in the Garden of Gethsemane and ended on the Cross. The events of the Cross are important to the Mormon understanding of the atonement.

During our last general conference, Elder Holland (from the Quorum of the 12 Apostles), gave one of the best talks/sermons I have ever heard on the atonement of Jesus. In it, Elder Holland confirmed the important role the events of the Cross played in making the atonement complete. I would invite anyone who is a lover of Jesus to listen to Elder Holland’s talk. I present the link: here. In short, the Mormon church recognizes that it was on the cross the Jesus’ suffering continued. It was also on the cross where he ultimately had to face his trials alone, when briefly, the Father withdrew even his presence from Jesus. In the Garden and on the Cross Jesus truly did “descend below all things” so that he could “…succor his people according to their infirmities” (Alma 7:12) and save them from death and hell.

Now, to answer your question on the CTR ring. It is in the shape of a shield and has the letters CTR in the center of the shield. The CTR stands for “Choose the Right” and although I’m not certain, I believe the shield represents the “shield of faith” spoken of in Ephesians. It is a reminder to always choose the right no matter the time, place, or circumstance.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I firmly believe that the only way people who call themselves Christians can live up to that beautiful reality is to respect one another’s religious practices, even if they are not exactly the same as their own. And I do respect you and your church, and your Christianity.

Now as for the cross, I don’t think it was ever a giant symbol in the Mormon Church, but surely Mormons acknowledge that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for mankind.

However, I wouldn’t expect a Mormon to wear a 4-way cross (the back of it is inscribed “I’m a Catholic, call a Priest”) ! But you might be interested to see what it looks like.

What does the CTR ring look like and represent?

Christine,
Thanks for the respect you always do show.

The letters CTR are engraved on a small shield just larger than the ring itself, such as what a high school class ring would look like. I have no idea what percentage of LDS youth wear them, but you can view different kinds by a google search of “Choose the Right Rings”. “Choose the Right” is a hymn in the LDS hymnbook, and the encouragement for youth in wearing the ring is that they will indeed feel a desire to make a “right choice” when confronted with a potential “wrong choice” option–such as when a supposed “friend” might try to persuade them to watch a bad movie or betray personal values.

The LDS do indeed believe with certainty that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for all mankind, and are profoundly grateful for His suffering including His suffering in the garden of Gethsemane. We use the term “atonement” as well as the term “crucified” when describing Christ’s suffering, because we believe that His spiritual agony exceeded the pain of His physical agony, but that both agonies are incomprehensible to us as mortal beings in that the pains were far greater than can be described. We believe those pains encompassed overcoming physical death for all of humankind so that there is a promised literal resurrection of each person, and carrying the pains of our illnesses, emotional or physical traumas including the pains of addictions, and the spiritual effects of our sins including the just eternal punishment that would otherwise come to each one of us.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Good afternoon Christine77! I hope you are doing well today. I don’t know if we’ve interacted before, but if not, then I’d like to say that I’m glad to make your acquaintance. Also, thank you for the benevolence that you show in your posts. I admire it very much!

I wanted to answer your question about the CTR ring and also, although you didn’t ask a question about this, I wanted to confirm that the Mormon church recognizes the atonement to have started in the Garden of Gethsemane and ended on the Cross. The events of the Cross are important to the Mormon understanding of the atonement.

During our last general conference, Elder Holland (from the Quorum of the 12 Apostles), gave one of the best talks/sermons I have ever heard on the atonement of Jesus. In it, Elder Holland confirmed the important role the events of the Cross played in making the atonement complete. I would invite anyone who is a lover of Jesus to listen to Elder Holland’s talk. I present the link: here. In short, the Mormon church recognizes that it was on the cross the Jesus’ suffering continued. It was also on the cross where he ultimately had to face his trials alone, when briefly, the Father withdrew even his presence from Jesus. In the Garden and on the Cross Jesus truly did “descend below all things” so that he could “…succor his people according to their infirmities” (Alma 7:12) and save them from death and hell.

Now, to answer your question on the CTR ring. It is in the shape of a shield and has the letters CTR in the center of the shield. The CTR stands for “Choose the Right” and although I’m not certain, I believe the shield represents the “shield of faith” spoken of in Ephesians. It is a reminder to always choose the right no matter the time, place, or circumstance.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Thanks Finrock, I did listen to that talk by Holland, and it was extremely beautiful and moving and true. If more people would listen to that, I assure you they would not accuse the LDS of not being true Christians! Thanks for your information on the CTR ring.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Christine,
Thanks for the respect you always do show.

The letters CTR are engraved on a small shield just larger than the ring itself, such as what a high school class ring would look like. I have no idea what percentage of LDS youth wear them, but you can view different kinds by a google search of “Choose the Right Rings”. “Choose the Right” is a hymn in the LDS hymnbook, and the encouragement for youth in wearing the ring is that they will indeed feel a desire to make a “right choice” when confronted with a potential “wrong choice” option–such as when a supposed “friend” might try to persuade them to watch a bad movie or betray personal values.

The LDS do indeed believe with certainty that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for all mankind, and are profoundly grateful for His suffering including His suffering in the garden of Gethsemane. We use the term “atonement” as well as the term “crucified” when describing Christ’s suffering, because we believe that His spiritual agony exceeded the pain of His physical agony, but that both agonies are incomprehensible to us as mortal beings in that the pains were far greater than can be described. We believe those pains encompassed overcoming physical death for all of humankind so that there is a promised literal resurrection of each person, and carrying the pains of our illnesses, emotional or physical traumas including the pains of addictions, and the spiritual effects of our sins including the just eternal punishment that would otherwise come to each one of us.

Thanks Parker - that’s beautiful.

 

[Stephen168]

The mormon position is not essentially pro-abortion.

All you can do is claim it to be true but there are no facts and/or reason to support it. You just want to believe it is true because it use to be true. A Prophet of a Church with continuing revelation has declared it OK to murder the unborn. What was once wrong is now OK.

 

[cothrige]

The Pope apologized for the sins of the Catholic Church, not of individuals; and other people understood it that way. Here is one link among many. And here too!

zerinus

Wrong. Did you even read your own links? Both of those quote the very words I had already provided for you in my post, those being

Let us ask pardon for the divisions which have occurred among Christians, for the violence some have used in the service of the truth and for the distrustful and hostile attitudes sometimes taken toward the followers of other religions.

This is an apology for people’s actions and not the Church. The Church is not “some.”

Further, and this is just as important, he is not speaking at all about the Crusades. There is no reason to even think he is talking about a Crusade much less the Crusades, or even any particular act committed during a Crusade. He never even mentions them. Your entire suggestion that the Crusades were the “murder” of “innocent Muslims” is historical fiction, at best. The Church did no such thing, and never apologised for any such act later. It is myth along the lines of Dan Brown.

And as for your comment that “other people understood it that way” I cannot possibly see the relevance. People understand things lots of ways. Many Catholics understand Mormons not to be Christian, which proves…?

 

[zerinus]

Now as for the cross, I don’t think it was ever a giant symbol in the Mormon Church, but surely Mormons acknowledge that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for mankind.

They most certainly do. I think that there are two reasons why the symbol of the cross loses its attraction for Mormons. One reason is that to Mormons Christ is a living reality who has manifested Himself to mankind anew, in a very real and personal way, in opening a new dispensation of the gospel. He is not some remote being who lived some 2,000 years ago. He is a living reality who appeared to Joseph Smith as a resurrected being in the Sacred Grove, and thereafter appeared to Him and others (and his successors) on numerous occasions. Imagine how you would feel if Jesus appeared to you in person as a resurrected being, and gave you the privilege of communing with Him personally and on a regular basis? Would you still be clutching His cross, when you can clutch His feet? Just think about that. That is how Mormons feel about Jesus Christ. I am not suggesting that all Mormons have seen Him; but from our perspective He is that close. Another reason why Mormons generally don’t find the symbol of the cross attractive is because many Christians of other faiths seem to revere the cross as an object in itself, rather than as merely a symbol of something. I am not suggesting that the actually worship the cross. But they revere it as an object in itself, which does not sit well with the Mormon way of thinking.

What does the CTR ring look like and represent?

If you just want to see what they look like, you will find plenty of examples here. And I am not trying to advertize for the shop by the way!

zerinus

 

[CHRISTINE77]

They most certainly do. I think that there are two reasons why the symbol of the cross loses its attraction for Mormons. One reason is that to Mormons Christ is a living reality who has manifested Himself to mankind anew, in a very real and personal way, in opening a new dispensation of the gospel. He is not some remote being who lived some 2,000 years ago. He is a living reality who appeared to Joseph Smith as a resurrected being in the Sacred Grove, and thereafter appeared to Him and others (and his successors) on numerous occasions. Imagine how you would feel if Jesus appeared to you in person as a resurrected being, and gave you the privilege of communing with Him personally and on a regular basis? Would you still be clutching His cross, when you can clutch His feet? Just think about that. That is how Mormons feel about Jesus Christ. I am not suggesting that all Mormons have seen Him; but from our perspective He is that close. Another reason why Mormons generally don’t find the symbol of the cross attractive is because many Christians of other faiths seem to revere the cross as an object in itself, rather than as merely a symbol of something. I am not suggesting that the actually worship the cross. But they revere it as an object in itself, which does not sit well with the Mormon way of thinking.

If you just want to see what they look like, you will find plenty of examples here. And I am not trying to advertize for the shop by the way!

zerinus

Thanks Zerinus, I did google the ring. It’s a nice idea, especially for young people.

That’s very interesting about the cross and the living Christ. I see what you are saying.

As for me, as a Catholic, the crucifix is not a symbol. When I look at it I see Jesus dying on the cross and it makes me very sad that he suffered so much for us. I know the joy of when he transcended death, but it’s good to remember that he actually had to die for us in agony.

 

[zerinus]

As for me, as a Catholic, the crucifix is not a symbol. When I look at it I see Jesus dying on the cross and it makes me very sad that he suffered so much for us. I know the joy of when he transcended death, but it’s good to remember that he actually had to die for us in agony.

Yes, I agree with that too. We remember the Lord’s sufferings for us when we celebrate the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper each Sunday at Church.

zerinus

 

[jessicaAKAmommy]

They were prisoners on trumped up charges, being attacked by 200 armed men that included the troops that were supposed to be protecting them. These 200 men thought they were going up against totally unarmed men. Their intent was to murder, and they managed it.

So yeah, it was “only” three times.

What, you think that those 200 men were honorable, brave folks who were administering justice according to the laws of the land?

You think it was perfectly acceptable for them to mob the jail and murder unarmed prisoners, and in your view the blame of the whole thing lies on Joseph Smith because he actually got to defend himself–and shoot three times before his gun misfired?

Your approval of mob violence and murder is noted.

I’m sorry, but I can’t let this one go… How does an “unarmed man” “shoot 3 times”? Your posts are normally very good and pretty respectfull.

BTW I wouldn’t consider domestic terrorism “trumped up charges”.

 

[Religio71]

I’m sorry, but I can’t let this one go… How does an “unarmed man” “shoot 3 times”? Your posts are normally very good and pretty respectfull.

BTW I wouldn’t consider domestic terrorism “trumped up charges”.

she said that “These 200 men** thought** they were going up against totally unarmed men”. So they thought they were unarmed, but JS really wasn’t.

 

[jessicaAKAmommy]

she said that “These 200 men** thought** they were going up against totally unarmed men”. So they thought they were unarmed, but JS really wasn’t.

makes more sense now. That’s what I get for trying to read with kids all over the place. Sorry Diana!

 

[dianaiad]

I’m sorry, but I can’t let this one go… How does an “unarmed man” “shoot 3 times”? Your posts are normally very good and pretty respectfull.

BTW I wouldn’t consider domestic terrorism “trumped up charges”.

First, it doesn’t matter what you CALL the charges, if they are trumped up, they are trumped up.

Second, ‘domestic terrorism’ was not the charge. Joseph was arrested because he and the town council dismantled a printing press after the owners (who had just two months previous plotted to assassinate Joseph and other church leaders) used it to print a rather virulent anti-Mormon paper that called for violence and terrorism AGAINST the Mormons. (which, by the way, happens to be illegal and is called ‘domestic terrorism’ today…the penalty for which is jail time and, oh…confiscation of the materials and equipment used to promote such actions)

But it was a good excuse, y’see. The charge of ‘treason’ was added so that Joseph and his brother could be kept in jail while the mob was gathered. That charge was bogus, and no historical legal expert believes that it would have been kept past morning. Of course, it didn’t have to, did it?

By the way, I wasn’t claiming that Joseph was unarmed. However, the 200 men who were attacking him thought that they were unarmed. That they were not came as a nasty surprise. I wonder how many men they thought would have been necessary to go after someone they KNEW had a five shooter?

So tell me; do YOU think that it was acceptable for 200 men to attack prisoners that they thought were unarmed because those prisoners had actually taken a hammer to a PRINTING PRESS.???

I’m sorry, but this is one of the things that really riles me. That anybody could defend the actions of that mob and those who sent them for any reason is astounding. That anybody could actually figure that Joseph deserved this because he actually had the nerve to defend himself with an inadequate misfiring pistol is mind boggling…and to actually think, or claim, that what happened to Joseph and Hyrum was in ANY way acceptable because they broke up a bloody PRINTING PRESS???

Examining causes with dispassion is one thing. If Joseph hadn’t broken up that printing press, it is possible that he wouldn’t have been killed at that time. However, given the extreme anti-Mormon feeling of the area and the time, someone would have come up with something, and another excuse would have been used.

However, nothing Joseph did, or could have done, justifies what happened to him. Nothing. The mob and the people who sent it were guilty of murder, and nothing, but NOTHING, excuses it.

What I see happening here is that people are madly attempting to blame Joseph for this. 200 people are coming for him with guns blazing? 200 men who would have murdered him no matter what…and all of a sudden it is ALL JOSEPH"S FAULT because he DEFENDED himself against an unlawful, horrendous and completely cowardly attack?

…and why? If they were so certain that Joseph was guilty of everything he was charged with, why didn’t they allow him to go to trial?

…(snort) it’s not as if, in that area, he could have been acquitted unless he was absolutely innocent of the charges and that shone so brightly that even the most prejudiced of judges would have had to dismiss the charges…or perhaps that was what the mob was afraid of. They were certainly not willing to find out, were they?

I’m sorry. I have a problem with people who misrepresent what happened at Carthage so as to make the mob sound like the victims.

 

[dianaiad]

makes more sense now. That’s what I get for trying to read with kids all over the place. Sorry Diana!

oops.

OK, That’s what I get for going into ‘react mode’ without reading the rest of the thread. I went off…and it was a simple misunderstanding.

I stand by the defense of the ‘domestic terrorism’ bit, though.