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tweetymom
Guest
And God Bless you for your very loving post.
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ConfusedTim
Guest
Most abuse happens outside religious settings and is perpretated by married men orthose living with partners. The priest marrying thing is a red herring and just another example of the media trying to beat and split the church.
The main difference between the catholic church and the sex abuse within protestant churches lies in the fact that the Catholic church means something (positive or negative) to the world whereas the protestant churches do not. Its a bit like a cleanliness problem within a McDonalds or KFC franchise will make the national news because people have expectations. Also these organisation will try to cover it up because they will think that they can deal with it internally. A cleanliness problem at Joe’s cafe might make the local paper but wont make the national news. The 30 000 protestant churches are not seen as being in any way united (they are not one) and so nobody really notices what goes on. The other fatc is that you are naive if you think that thye do not try to cover up problems.
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mark_a
Guest
The reason the Church is attacked is because everyone has an ax to grind. Everyone wants to be the big dog.
Catholics on a Catholic forum defending their own beliefs have no intention of elevating the Body of Christ above Christ.
Maybe you should focus on some CofE problems instead.
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Greenbrier
Guest
It always seems to come to this:
That said, don’t Catholics have the same responsibility?
- Some mention of the recent and apparently ongoing problem of sexual abuse among Catholic clergy is mentioned, and
- Examples of other groups doing similar things are trotted out by Catholics, or
- Non-catholics are told to mind their own business.
That said, don’t Catholics have the same responsibility?
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
and you trust in your own interpretation of the Holy Bible.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
Ted Haggard, jim baker, jimmy swaggart, david Koresh.
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Vile_Servant
Guest
Please clarify from scripture whether homosexuality is a sin.
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schaick
Guest
Ok, yes must be sitting in Peter’s Chair.
This is where I get confused.
There is infallibity of the Pope in regards to the things you mention above yet a Pope can be immoral and stiil make an infallible statement? Is this correct?
I can’t think of any other example, sorry but bear with me:
Say abortion-Popes say no to abortions make it immoral for Catholics to get one, it is an infallible statement.
Yet say that same Pope is a homosexual, and actually acting on his desires with a consenting adult. Does his infallible ruling stand? Oh maybe this is a better example-what if his infalible statement is about homosexuality?
Also is this where the antepope come in? Is that what it is called? When it is decided that a Pope really wasn’t the Pope. Or is that when it is discovered that the Pope wasn’t really a Christian?
But say that Pope is really a devote Christian and just can’t control love for his partner.
Pilgrimage mentioed a sacrifice- I can think of a good one-castration. Check this out:
nytimes.com/2009/03/11/world/europe/11castrate.html
*More than 20 years have passed. Pavel, then 18, spent seven years in prison and five years in a psychiatric institution. During his last year in prison, he asked to be surgically castrated. Having his testicles removed, he said, was like draining the gasoline from a car hard-wired to crash. A large, dough-faced man, he is sterile and has forsaken marriage, romantic relationships and sex, he said. His life revolves around a Catholic charity, where he is a gardener.
“I can finally live knowing that I am no harm to anybody,” he said during an interview at a McDonald’s here, as children played loudly nearby. “I am living a productive life. I want to tell people that there is help.”*
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Greg27
Guest
To me it is a part of the ongoing problems with sex abuse in the church. In the past there were clearly problems with transparency and accountability on the part of priests and their Bishops in relation to sex abuse cases. There did seem to be a certain attitude of ‘let’s protect our own’ and obviously trying to protect the reputation of the church by keeping such matters quiet to avoid scandal. Unfortunately as we now know, some of the measures adopted (such as moving priests from parish to parish) merely allowed sex offenders more opportunities to commit henious crimes, sometimes against children and especially in countries where the Catholich Church had enormous public trust and confidence and priests had virtually open access to people’s families and homes, which gave the sex offenders many opportunities to isolate and abuse victims.
This has to be considered though against the fact sex abuse claims are often hard to prove because the evidence is unavailable or may not stand up to proof in court, and also sometimes such claims are malicious and false in nature and aim merely to defame a person and destroy their reputation. Also the church in its disciplinary procedures in my understanding observes the principles of natural justice (i.e. at least letting a person know the case against them and giving them a chance to respond). Clearly where accusations of such a serious nature as sexual abuse of minors is concerned, the penalties and consequences of even a false accusation are potentially severe, so obviously such cases had to be handled with care and with regard for the rights of the defendant.
I think any organisation faces extreme difficulties in trying to weed out sex offenders and pedophilies since such criminals are also often adept at hiding or concealing their crimes and the evidence as well as getting the trust and confidence of victims, families and superiors. I think though where churches are concerned, there is a unique dimension where the priests or people involved with the church may be surrounded by an aura of perfection, mystique, infallibility, and authority. People who are brought up in churches are often taught to obey the leader of the church is to revere and obey God also, and may be unable to accept the idea their leaders can sin or make mistakes. Such absolute confidence and power and corrupt those that hold such power as well as make people blind to the evils they do until it is too late.
The Catholic Church is highly organised in structure and there is a clear difference between the clerics and the laity, and the church has been pretty consistent in its teaching (despite some acknowledgement of the individual right to act according to conscience) that the authority of the church is infallible and you are no longer a faithful Catholic if you question the authority or teaching of the church’s leaders. There is a very strong presumption in Catholicism that the leadership is free from mistake and error and cannot have it wrong on anything. I think such theological beliefs unfortunately may have made Catholics complacent about the fact power often corrupts, especially in the religious sphere, and people can use power and trust to cloak and hide abuse and crimes. I also think this played a role in making the sex scandal more prolonged and worse than if the governance of the church was more open and transparent to accountability and criticism when needed.
Ultimately the number of serious offenders is small and Christian churches now have far more rigorous background checks for candidates and employees, especially for those working with children. I think such standards should be maintained along with higher levels of transparency and accountability, and church leaders should not try to close ranks when civil authorities bring criminal prosecutions against offenders, so long as they are based on properly obtained evidence and those accused are afforded the usual rights of an accused (such as a fair trial).
This has to be considered though against the fact sex abuse claims are often hard to prove because the evidence is unavailable or may not stand up to proof in court, and also sometimes such claims are malicious and false in nature and aim merely to defame a person and destroy their reputation. Also the church in its disciplinary procedures in my understanding observes the principles of natural justice (i.e. at least letting a person know the case against them and giving them a chance to respond). Clearly where accusations of such a serious nature as sexual abuse of minors is concerned, the penalties and consequences of even a false accusation are potentially severe, so obviously such cases had to be handled with care and with regard for the rights of the defendant.
I think any organisation faces extreme difficulties in trying to weed out sex offenders and pedophilies since such criminals are also often adept at hiding or concealing their crimes and the evidence as well as getting the trust and confidence of victims, families and superiors. I think though where churches are concerned, there is a unique dimension where the priests or people involved with the church may be surrounded by an aura of perfection, mystique, infallibility, and authority. People who are brought up in churches are often taught to obey the leader of the church is to revere and obey God also, and may be unable to accept the idea their leaders can sin or make mistakes. Such absolute confidence and power and corrupt those that hold such power as well as make people blind to the evils they do until it is too late.
The Catholic Church is highly organised in structure and there is a clear difference between the clerics and the laity, and the church has been pretty consistent in its teaching (despite some acknowledgement of the individual right to act according to conscience) that the authority of the church is infallible and you are no longer a faithful Catholic if you question the authority or teaching of the church’s leaders. There is a very strong presumption in Catholicism that the leadership is free from mistake and error and cannot have it wrong on anything. I think such theological beliefs unfortunately may have made Catholics complacent about the fact power often corrupts, especially in the religious sphere, and people can use power and trust to cloak and hide abuse and crimes. I also think this played a role in making the sex scandal more prolonged and worse than if the governance of the church was more open and transparent to accountability and criticism when needed.
Ultimately the number of serious offenders is small and Christian churches now have far more rigorous background checks for candidates and employees, especially for those working with children. I think such standards should be maintained along with higher levels of transparency and accountability, and church leaders should not try to close ranks when civil authorities bring criminal prosecutions against offenders, so long as they are based on properly obtained evidence and those accused are afforded the usual rights of an accused (such as a fair trial).
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
This is all true and well known today. However, we have to keep in mind that in the times that the abuses happened (this one seems to be from the early 80s), that wasn’t the prevalent theory among psychiatrists, criminal lawyers, and even the general public. At the time, most people believed that pedophiles could be treated and that a seemingly repentant person would reform. It wasn’t until after repeat cases keep piling up and being documented (in general, not just in the Church), that psychiatrists and the courts saw the incredible recidivist rates on this crime. Also, the Church teaches that repentance and reform are possible, so it makes sense for her to show mercy to someone who seems truly repentant. And a priest may truly have felt remorse and wanted to repent. If he was to be placed into another parish, it would only be proper to keep what the hierarchy felt were past sins private from his new congregation because no one thought he would sin in that way again.
Yes, now we all know better. And the Church policies have changed appropriately. Any child abuse is a horrible sign of our fallen world. I pray for all children who have been abused at the hands of a priest, teacher, coach–any trusted adult! It is truly, truly an evil thing. I am very grateful that society as a whole now sees this cancer for what it is and works to keep pedophiles away from children completely.
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CMatt25
Guest
I can not blame anyone who questions how a hierarchy supposedy appointed by Christ does not know to protect innocent children at all times instead of covering up and moving priests to protect themselves. And I can not blame anyone who wonders if they do not know this, what else do they not know? It is all very sad. 
I know though Christ always has had the power to reform and take his Church to where He wants it to be so as to assure the gates of hell do not prevail.
I know though Christ always has had the power to reform and take his Church to where He wants it to be so as to assure the gates of hell do not prevail.
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Dokimas
Guest
Just because someone or some church believes they are led by the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean they are. Doesn’t the Bible say something about fruits? Maybe we are worrying too much about the other person and not enough about ourselves. We are only accountable for ourselves (unless we are in leadership - then we’d better take care doublly for our actions and beliefs).
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anode
Guest
Getting back to the erupting story about priestly sex abuse in Germany, this story is very big and will not die down for a while, as stories about priest sex abuse spread across Europe. such cases are already well-established in the Netherlands, for example.
Benedict or turns 83 this year; although he is has been vigorous, sooner or later, his years are going to start telling on him and drag him down, just as this ongoing scandal is. I predict that he will have less time and energy to pursue other investigations, as this one laps at his feet. We’ll see.
Benedict or turns 83 this year; although he is has been vigorous, sooner or later, his years are going to start telling on him and drag him down, just as this ongoing scandal is. I predict that he will have less time and energy to pursue other investigations, as this one laps at his feet. We’ll see.
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mark_a
Guest
No problems with any of this. But it’s sure not how our conversation on this thread started.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
First, the bible can be perceived as contradicting itself, if not interpreted correctly. That’s why you have so many different christian communities with different doctrines all based upon the “bible alone.” Second, the bible has not been around for 2,000 years. It was compiled over the centuries following Christ’s resurrection and its boundaries remained somewhat fuzzy despite a series of councils that ultimately settled on the canon of 73 books, of which protestantism rejects 7 books. If even the number of the canon is in question, how can the “bible” be the final arbiter of all doctrine? It cannot.
Pil:
Not true. You misunderstand the doctrine of infallibility. It is not a doctrine that exhalts the Pope. It is a doctrine that protects the Church - especially where the Pope may be quite incapable from teaching true doctrine.
Pil:
I just can’t understand how someone can come to these boards, read the numerous explanations of the doctrine, then simply turn around and name-call all Catholics as if we are automatons under the sway of some cult of personality. That sort of conduct is much more common in protestant circles, where one particularly charismatic preacher can mislead whole groups into ruination… a la David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.
Pil:
So are we.
Pil:
It’s not the false dichotomy you set it up to be. If you love Jesus, and you believe that His Church is the Catholic Church, then you love His Church too - BECAUSE you love Jesus.
Pil:
Why not?
Pil:
You are confusing infallibility and impeccability. No pope is without sin. Some few (remarkably few given the nearly 2,000 year history) were even downright wicked. The Holiness of the Pope’s conduct is not a requirement for the operation of the doctrine of infallibility.
Pil:
Peter forgot his place when he denied Christ three times. Yet Christ reminded Peter of his call to feed Christ’s sheep and tend His flock. (Jn 21:15-18)
Pil:
That’s just ridiculous. The Catholic Church is rooted in Christ and it is Christ who is the center, source and summit of our faith. You have a very poor and misguided understanding of the Catholic faith.
Pil:
You speak as if the Church teaches that sex abuse is a good thing. Nothing could be further from the truth. Indeed, the Church herself sees these predators for the wolves they are, and it is true that in part they succeeded for so long because the Church was deceived. But to imply that the entire Church tacitly approved of the abuse, or turned a blind eye to it as a matter of policy or practice is just fatally unsupported.
Pil:
This is what the Church has been doing from the very beginning. My goodness, how can you not see that?
Peace,
Robert
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Dokimas
Guest
I’m not remembering the beginning of our conversation. Could you please bring me up to speed so I can make some sense of what you’re saying? TY.
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mark_a
Guest
The pope’s Infallibility comes from the Church, not vice versa. Infallible statements are a rare occurance, usually to addressteachings that someone is trying to change. For example, in the 1960’s, the pope was under intense pressure from inside the Church to change the Church’s teaching regarding contraception to a more post 1930 Protestant viewpoint. He refused, then reaffirmed the 1900-plus year teaching that contraception is immoral.
If you are asking if a pope could infallibly “ok” homosexuality, the answer is no because this would contradict previous dogma.
I don’t know.
I don’t understand the question, could you clarify?
Again, could you clarify?
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mark_a
Guest
Dokimas, can we just meet up again on another thread? I think you and I have taken this as far as we can for now.
When one truly undersatnds what the Church teaches and cannot accept it, even the pope would tell you that you should not be a member of the CC.
Best to you and my sincere wishes to see you in heaven as you are.
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Dokimas
Guest
I’m lost and you’re not willing to fill me in with what’s going on so I guess we should meet again later.
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Greenbrier
Guest
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
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