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Faith1960

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I think I have my answer for my last question so now how about this…how can His body and blood look and taste like bread and wine and have the inebriatng qualities of wine?
 
Faith1960 said:
I think I have my answer for my last question so now how about this…how can His body and blood look and taste like bread and wine and have the inebriatng qualities of wine?
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That is precisely what is meant by *accidents *-- All the observable, sensible qualities of the Eucharistic species. The *accidents *remain unchanged by the consecration, only the substance of the bread and wine is changed into the substance of the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord.

What do you suppose causes wine to have an inebriating effect? The reality of its *substance *-- That it really is wine? Or its *accidents *(which remain after transubstantiation)? Do you think your digestive system processes the sacred species and concludes *This tastes like wine, but it is really the blood of Christ. *That *won’t inebriate me! *? Or do you think your digestive system is unable to distinguish common wine from the blood of Christ?

tee
 
Faith1960 said:
I think I have my answer for my last question so now how about this…how can His body and blood look and taste like bread and wine and have the inebriatng qualities of wine?
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You know your only supposed to sip the wine, don’t you? 🙂

Like the host, once it is inside you, the spirit enters you and it reverts to being wine, from my understanding.
 
tee_eff_em said:
That is precisely what is meant by *accidents *-- All the observable, sensible qualities of the Eucharistic species. The *accidents *remain unchanged by the consecration, only the substance of the bread and wine is changed into the substance of the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord.

What do you suppose causes wine to have an inebriating effect? The reality of its *substance *-- That it really is wine? Or its *accidents *(which remain after transubstantiation)? Do you think your digestive system processes the sacred species and concludes *This tastes like wine, but it is really the blood of Christ. *That *won’t inebriate me! *? Or do you think your digestive system is unable to distinguish common wine from the blood of Christ?

tee
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Can you explain substance beyond saying it 's what it is?
 
Faith1960 said:
Can you explain substance beyond saying it 's what it is?
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I can’t.

Transubstantiation is the only instance I know where we can point to a thing and say *“It’s bread” *- *“It’s bread” *- *“It’s bread” *- *“It’s bread” *- *“It’s bread” *- *“It’s bread” *- … And then suddenly, without moving the point off the thing, we say *“It’s the Body of Christ” *- *“It’s the Body of Christ” *- *“It’s the Body of Christ” *- *“It’s the Body of Christ” *- … I know no other phenomenon where the *substance *changes, but the *accidents *remain.

I can, however, give you an example of a phenomenon where the *substance *remains while the *accidents *undergo change, and hope that will help you to understand.

You.

You are not the same as you were when you were an infant, or teenager, or a year ago, or a minute ago, or a second ago. You have consumed resources, expelled wastes, experienced new ideas, formed new memories (probably forgot some too). Yet you have never ceased to be you.
(Or, if you assert you did cease to be the old you and are now a new you: When did you stop being the you of yesteryear and become the you of today? How did you know?

tee
 
Faith1960 said:
Can you explain substance beyond saying it 's what it is?
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Substance is basically what makes something what it is regardless of its physical or other properties (the accidents). So even though the accidents change (think like a chair with five legs or no legs instead of four) the thing’s substance still remains the same.
 
InThePew said:
Substance is basically what makes something what it is regardless of its physical or other properties (the accidents). So even though the accidents change (think like a chair with five legs or no legs instead of four) the thing’s substance still remains the same.
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So how is it His body and looking like bread and wine? By being supernatural?
 
tee_eff_em said:
That is precisely what is meant by *accidents *-- All the observable, sensible qualities of the Eucharistic species. The *accidents *remain unchanged by the consecration, only the substance of the bread and wine is changed into the substance of the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord.

What do you suppose causes wine to have an inebriating effect? The reality of its *substance *-- That it really is wine? Or its *accidents *(which remain after transubstantiation)? Do you think your digestive system processes the sacred species and concludes *This tastes like wine, but it is really the blood of Christ. *That *won’t inebriate me! *? Or do you think your digestive system is unable to distinguish common wine from the blood of Christ?

tee
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How can the accidents stay the same but the substance change? Supernaturally?
 
Faith1960 said:
How can the accidents stay the same but the substance change? Supernaturally?
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Yes. You’re asking “by what power does it happen?”, and I think tee_eff_em answered the question “in what way does it happen?”.

Yes, it happens supernaturally. Christ told us to do it; priests call down the Holy Spirit upon the bread and wine and perform the consecration of the sacrament; and through the power of God – given to priests by virtue of their ordination – the bread and wine (supernaturally) become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ.
 
tee_eff_em said:
I can’t.

Transubstantiation is the only instance I know where we can point to a thing and say *“It’s bread” *- *“It’s bread” *- *“It’s bread” *- *“It’s bread” *- *“It’s bread” *- *“It’s bread” *- … And then suddenly, without moving the point off the thing, we say *“It’s the Body of Christ” *- *“It’s the Body of Christ” *- *“It’s the Body of Christ” *- *“It’s the Body of Christ” *- … I know no other phenomenon where the *substance *changes, but the *accidents *remain.

I can, however, give you an example of a phenomenon where the *substance *remains while the *accidents *undergo change, and hope that will help you to understand.

You.

You are not the same as you were when you were an infant, or teenager, or a year ago, or a minute ago, or a second ago. You have consumed resources, expelled wastes, experienced new ideas, formed new memories (probably forgot some too). Yet you have never ceased to be you.
(Or, if you assert you did cease to be the old you and are now a new you: When did you stop being the you of yesteryear and become the you of today? How did you know?

tee
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Transaccidentiation? :hmmm:
 
Gorgias said:
Yes. You’re asking “by what power does it happen?”, and I think tee_eff_em answered the question “in what way does it happen?”.

Yes, it happens supernaturally. Christ told us to do it; priests call down the Holy Spirit upon the bread and wine and perform the consecration of the sacrament; and through the power of God – given to priests by virtue of their ordination – the bread and wine (supernaturally) become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ.
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Tee said it happens metaphysically (sp).
 
Faith1960 said:
I think I have my answer for my last question so now how about this…how can His body and blood look and taste like bread and wine and have the inebriatng qualities of wine?
Click to expand...
Modern Catholic Dictionary (Fr. Hardon) on Transubstantiation (excerpt):
“The Council of Trent, in defining the “wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the wine into the blood” of Christ, added “which conversion the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation” (Denzinger 1652). after transubstantiation, the accidents of bread and wine do not inhere in any subject or substance whatever. Yet they are not make-believe they are sustained in existence by divine power.”
 
Faith1960 said:
So how is it His body and looking like bread and wine? By being supernatural?
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Well it still looks (and feels and tastes) like bread and wine because the accidents (the physical properties) haven’t changed unlike the substance which is now Christ’s body and blood. Of course your next question is probably going to be “how?” and supernaturally about covers it. That said, don’t confuse “supernatural” with magic; by supernatural, I mean something which is outside of / above / beyond nature (the ordinary way in which things happen). transubstantiation (the change from one substance to another) is the term we give to the process but the actual “how” of it all comes down to God.
 
Faith1960 said:
Tee said it happens metaphysically (sp).
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That’s right: the way that it happens is metaphysically – that is, by virtue of what things are.

However, you seemed to be asking “by what power does it happen?”. Am I mistaken?

If that’s the case, then the actor in the transubstantiation is God (and by grant of authority, his priests); the action, then, is a supernatural one.
 
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