NFP? A question about marriage and contraception

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cmgeo:
Coming to the main topic of discussion,
I still dont get Church’s attitude to sexuality
In a similar thread elsewhere I did say that
NFP is as hypocritical as use of contraceptives

First argument is whether or not having a planned family
is allowed by catholic teaching?
If that is Allowed why make such fuss about
non-abortive contraceptives?
How is that different from NFP?

If abstinence is the virtue why marry at all?

Is not sexual act the ultimate expression of Love?
I believe abstinence in marriage as a part of NFP
is against nature and against essence of marriage
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I can understand from this and past posts that you really don’t understand the very basics of NFP. I don’t say that to insult just to help explain. NFP is based in sacrifice. You have it based in denial.

The sexual act is NOT the ultimate expression of love.This statement is a slap in the face to all couples who through accident or age can no longer participate in the marital act. Are you implying that they love each other less than a couple who has sex?
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cmgeo:
There are different situations of couple living
apart for weeks or months due to work etc
and it becomes practically difficult to abstain when they
come together irrespective of whether it is time of fertility
or not. Again even for people living together
relationships keep varying
Sometimes people feel more intimate than at other times
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Again, you point out your ignorance (please note that to be ignorant means to be unschooled it does NOT mean stupid.) in understanding NFP. If they have been apart for months and they are trying to “control” their fertility then, yes, they will encounter difficulty. If they are apart for months and are allowing God to plan their family, then she will be fertile or not according to God’s plan. What you seem to be missing is that fertility is a gift! It is such a precious gift that God only gives it to a couple for 24-48 hours per month. The catch for you is that He gives it on His terms, not ours. You want it to happen when you plan for it not God. Charting in NFP allows us a peek at God’s “day planner.”
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cmgeo:
Fertile time is when women are in better spirits and likely to
be more loving to their husbands

I dont know if church considers such aspects as well

The practice of NFP is also linked with the theory
of wasting ‘seed’

I think that was an old understanding that the sperm gets
absorbed into the body etc

We now know better

Any comments?
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Wow! If you would like to learn more about how cyclical fertility affects a female’s sex drive, there are many here who would be happy to help you understand. “More loving to my husband while I’m fertile???” WOW! Our desire to reproduce is higher during fertile cycles so we might want to try more often, but we are just as “loving” in each act during infertility too! I think that might be what you meant, so I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I have no idea what you mean by “wasting seed.” NOT having sex in no way “wastes seed!” Otherwise I better rush down to my husband’s work and take care of him after he says something romantic to me on the phone, or he will be guilty of wasting seed. What??

Although if you are implying NFP promotes “wasting seed” through the sin of Onan, then you are terribly misrepresenting NFP again.

Comments? Yes I have comments. Please ask the questions about what you would like to learn. A running commentary on what NFP is NOT isn’t very helpful to the discussion.
 
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cmgeo:
Coming to the main topic of discussion,
I still dont get Church’s attitude to sexuality
In a similar thread elsewhere I did say that
NFP is as hypocritical as use of contraceptives

First argument is whether or not having a planned family
is allowed by catholic teaching?
If that is Allowed why make such fuss about
non-abortive contraceptives?
How is that different from NFP?

If abstinence is the virtue why marry at all?

Is not sexual act the ultimate expression of Love?
I believe abstinence in marriage as a part of NFP
is against nature and against essence of marriage

There are different situations of couple living
apart for weeks or months due to work etc
and it becomes practically difficult to abstain when they
come together irrespective of whether it is time of fertility
or not. Again even for people living together
relationships keep varying
Sometimes people feel more intimate than at other times

Fertile time is when women are in better spirits and likely to
be more loving to their husbands

I dont know if church considers such aspects as well

The practice of NFP is also linked with the theory
of wasting ‘seed’

I think that was an old understanding that the sperm gets
absorbed into the body etc

We now know better

Any comments?
Click to expand...
You should start by reading what the Church actually teaches. Your opinions are not truth and your understanding of truth is not accurate.
 
All I am saying is the Church’s teaching on only use NFP
for planning family is not a very practical one
I was only giving some instances where it might not work

Whatever Debbie is saying is completely OFF
That was manipulating my words
 
Actually, using NFP is extremely practical and effective. One of my sisters had a molar pregnancy…which made it extremely dangerous (read life threatening) to become pregnant for at least a year. NFP is all they used, it is more effective than the pill. Another sister has had cancer and also a very difficult pregnancy that ended with an emergency c-section nearly 5 weeks before her due date. To become pregnant would be dangerous to say the least. NFP is working just fine( and she has never had “regular” periods). That is the “effective” part. The practical part is that besides avoiding mortal sin ( which is a very practical thing to do), there are no drugs, patches, injections, condoms, diaphragms, etc. to deal with**…very** practical as far as cost, hassle, etc.
 
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Catilieth:
Actually, using NFP is extremely practical and effective. One of my sisters had a molar pregnancy…which made it extremely dangerous (read life threatening) to become pregnant for at least a year. NFP is all they used, it is more effective than the pill. Another sister has had cancer and also a very difficult pregnancy that ended with an emergency c-section nearly 5 weeks before her due date. To become pregnant would be dangerous to say the least. NFP is working just fine( and she has never had “regular” periods). That is the “effective” part. The practical part is that besides avoiding mortal sin ( which is a very practical thing to do), there are no drugs, patches, injections, condoms, diaphragms, etc. to deal with**…very** practical as far as cost, hassle, etc.
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I completely agree! I used contraception until my conversion to the Catholic Church. The beauty of Her teachings on sex/marriage were a large part of (not the only reason) why I converted.

I had never heard valid arguments** for** NFP/against contraception until I joined this forum. Once I truly inderstood what sex is and what marriage is about I could no longer, in good conscience, contracept.

I have serious medical reasons to delay or completely avoid conception/pregnancy.

Aside from it being the only moral choice, NFP leaves me and my hubby in complete control of my body…not some pill or barrier that we would then have to “trust”. We choose to trust God.

Malia
 
Feanaro's Wife:
I]Aside from it being the only moral choice, NFP leaves me and my hubby in complete control of my body…not some pill or barrier that we would then have to “trust”. We choose to trust God.

Malia
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Beautifully said. 👍
 
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cmgeo:
All I am saying is the Church’s teaching on only use NFP
for planning family is not a very practical one
I was only giving some instances where it might not work

Whatever Debbie is saying is completely OFF
That was manipulating my words
Click to expand...
I am sorry you feel that I minipulated your words. If you would like to restate, I would be happy to retract anything that might have been misleading.

I just called it like I saw it.

I agree with the above posters and find NFP very practical. Although again I might be misreading you. Perhaps you are saying that it is The Church’s teaching that is impractical, not NFP itself. No matter what, I hope you are able to find a real connection with the Church in this teaching. It really is so beautiful. There are NO situations in marriage, that I know of where it “might not work.” Difficult, maybe; some surprises, sure; but it always “works.”
 
All I know is, I wish NFP had never been invented.

Gone are my chances for the kind of marriage where
both are willing to let God plan the family.
Some people may have serious financial or physical
reasons for not having children, we don’t.
Now that I see how wonderful it would have been to
let God plan the family, it’s too late. Thanks to NFP,
we can plan our own family with the blessing of the church.

I know God is still in charge, and still planning the family,
but only to a point. If I were giving someone as a gift a
bottle of expensive perfume, but then noticed that they
always went around with a clothespin on their nose, I think
I may change my mind about giving them that gift after all.

With the invention of NFP, the practice of not having
children takes precidence over intimate times. Wouldn’t it be awful if someone said from now on we could only eat ice cream
in the winter? That’s what it’s like to practice NFP. There is
a certain kind joy that is missing, and unattainable. I wonder how many people at the end of their life express profound joy over NOT
having children?
 
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cheeto1:
All I know is, I wish NFP had never been invented.

Gone are my chances for the kind of marriage where
both are willing to let God plan the family.
Some people may have serious financial or physical
reasons for not having children, we don’t.
Now that I see how wonderful it would have been to
let God plan the family, it’s too late. Thanks to NFP,
we can plan our own family with the blessing of the church.
Click to expand...
Is there someone holding a gun to your head saying that** you** must use NFP? If not, why the “woe is me”. Have all the children your heart desires. But, two of my sisters have/had life threatening issues, and if not for NFP, gone would be the unitive aspects of marriage. Many, many people have very serious reasons for using NFP… but you wish to deny them this?? Who are you to say? If the Church in her wisdom considers this licit, who are you to say otherwise. I have plenty of sisters to use as example…one little sister has 10 children…and quess what ? they used NFP to plan for each of them. Because you were not generous and mis-used the gift of NFP, do not think that everyone else did/does.
Holier than thou doesn’t become anyone.
BTW, where does it say “thou shalt not plan?” The Gospel actually uses the example of the man who starts to build without first planning and then is a laughing stock because he lacks the funds to finish.
 
I have a quoestion regarding the diferrence between NFM and contraception. It seems the stress is on the assumption that NFM always leaves a possibility of conception, i.e. you can still get pregnant even during vertile periods. Meanwhile contraception is accused of totally outruling the possibility of conception. But is that really true? Is the Church trying to say that , for instance, condoms are 100 percent reliable to prevent pregnancy or diseases? Well that’s not what I’ve heard and read in Cahtolic literature specifically about contraception. It was argued that conctraception is not reliable. Even mannufacturers of condomns do not claim condoms guarantee prevention of pregnancy or diseases. They only reduce the chances of pregnancy. But doesn’t NFM do just the same.
Anyway, let’s be honest, aren’t we pursuing the same goal by contraception and NFM - to avoid pregnancy by reducing the risk of pregnancy to the minimum.
Vytas, a catholic from Lithuania
 
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vytautas:
I have a quoestion regarding the diferrence between NFM and contraception. It seems the stress is on the assumption that NFM always leaves a possibility of conception, i.e. you can still get pregnant even during vertile periods. Meanwhile contraception is accused of totally outruling the possibility of conception. But is that really true? Is the Church trying to say that , for instance, condoms are 100 percent reliable to prevent pregnancy or diseases? Well that’s not what I’ve heard and read in Cahtolic literature specifically about contraception. It was argued that conctraception is not reliable. Even mannufacturers of condomns do not claim condoms guarantee prevention of pregnancy or diseases. They only reduce the chances of pregnancy. But doesn’t NFM do just the same.
Anyway, let’s be honest, aren’t we pursuing the same goal by contraception and NFM - to avoid pregnancy by reducing the risk of pregnancy to the minimum.
Vytas, a catholic from Lithuania
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Vytautas (Vytas),

I couldn’t agreee more with your obvious analysis which I would think (and thought when I first responded to this thread weeks ago) every Catholic should recognize. Your preaching to the chior! Or at least, mine. but your critique is right on the ball (topic). the purpose of NFP unless I am mistaken is the same as that of contraception, to aviod pregnancy , and therefore parental responsibility, which Pope John Paul II, of nearby Poland to you, more or less stated in his book Love and Responsibility , stating that the role of responsible Catholics is to foster childhood and be open to God’s will (pregnancy). The Churches exact teaching on the subject is that **“Responsible parenthood [is] in no way exclusively directed to limiting, much less excluding, children; it means also the willingness to accept larger family” ** (L’Osservatore Romano, April 11, 1988)
Now you may ask yourself (as do I), how can the Church teach this and support NFP? This is still an ongoing debate. I have been trying to do some independant research in my spare time to see whether the Church really does support this practice, as there are so many arguments and arguers within the Church for both sides. No success thus far.

You are also right in your statement that condoms do not guarantee 100% contraception, in fact I have seen statistics where 1 in every 55 couples (or men) who use condoms end up in misintended pregnancy, which is among one of the greatest causes of abortions, which is the greatest shame and disrespect against life and God. I suppose the only line you can draw between NFP and Contraception is that while contraception automatically discludes the opportunity or openness to life, NFP does, **although that is not is purpose or intent. ** . Like you have said, it is still possible for pregnancy during an infertile period, but I would positively say, with God as my witness, that this is not the point, purpose, or intent of NFP. It is redundant if you think about it? How could a couple practicing NFP claim that they are open to life if they are deliberately, although not necessarilly, attempting to preclude it? It’s like a murderer who gets off death row for a technicality, like if the police don’t wear gloves on the crime scene. that is what NFP is…a technicality of the system, WHICH GOD INTENDED AND CREATED. Is this a wise thing to do then? to try to find a so called “loophole” in God’s law and practice it?

also, you might want to refer to my previous posts on the subject, which are also within this thread. ** They are numbers #75 and #76 in the thread.** . You DEFINITELY want to read those if you want a better understanding of the argument…and make no mistake, this is an argument, and a very serious one at that, with very serious consequences

Grace of Christ in your discernment, 👍

R.A.H.
 
Actually, the purpose of NFP is to plan when you are going to have children. It is** not** contraception. Nowhere does the Church say “thou shalt not plan”. My sister Sofia has always used NFP very successfully,… to have 10 children. With anything good comes the possibility for abuse. If you refuse to have children for no more serious a reason than you just don’t want to deal with them, then your intent is sinful even though your method is very licit. There are very legitimate reasons for avoiding pregnancy, as stated in previous posts, even to avoid pregnancy forever.
Not having sex is not contraception…there is a world of difference between not choosing to have sex during a fertile period and preventing conception during sex. It has nothing to do with the reliability of the method----reliability is totally irrelevant. From the point of view that says that avoiding sex is the same as contraception, what about people who are celibate? Contraception is sinful because it is a lie spoken with your body in the most intimate of situations…“I give you all of myself, except for this” (what is by natural law the primary reason for sex)… it separates what God specifically intended to be integral to making love. Having marital relations with your spouse for the wrong reasons is sinful. That doesn’t mean that having marital relations is sinful. Just as with using NFP, your intent was sinful even though your method was licit.
 
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