NFP and Abstinence - How far is too far?

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jegow:
Sure it wouldn’t have been a sin if oral sex wasn’t sinful. Oral sex is a sin though so in that case the sin has already been committed.
Oral sex is permissible as foreplay (as long as the climax is reached in the marital embrace).

BTW, here is a link to an answer on AAA
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=74232

Here is an excerpt:

Does that mean that any oral sex activity must be followed by sexual intercourse? Or is oral sex allowed so long as there is no male climax? That is, does all sexual activity have to have as the intent climax by the male during sexual intercourse or is husband wife sexual activity permissible so long as the intent is that if there is a male climax it occurs during sexual intercourse?​

Dear C,

Fore play is just that. It is what happens beFORE intercourse. **To deliberately arouse one’s spouse sexually is to invite him or her to intercourse. ** To do otherwise is to act in an overtly un-loving way. Certainly, playful actions that are sexual but do not arouse can be appropriate in marriage.
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
 
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jegow:
Sure it wouldn’t have been a sin if oral sex wasn’t sinful. Oral sex is a sin though so in that case the sin has already been committed.
vluvski never said “oral sex”, she said “oral stimulation.” And oral stimulation as part of foreplay is most certainly permitted within marriage.
 
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frogman80:
The fantasy is not self-centered unless you are only thinking about yourself…
I dont want anyone to get the wrong idea… If fantasizing became and end to itself… ie… a person could be satisfed with fantasy alone, it would be self centered. Spouse in mind or not.
 
Here’s a situation I wouldn’t contest: a married couple desires a strong sexual relationship, and has decided to explore oral stimulation as part of foreplay. In learning how the other responds to such stimulation, the wife does not stop in time and the husband is unable to prevent ejaculation before he reaches his wife. This is an accident, and certainly they can wait a bit and try again later. There is no contraceptive intent, nor the desire to separate the pleasure from the marital act. Thus, neither is culpable of sin in this case.
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jegow:
Sure it wouldn’t have been a sin if oral sex wasn’t sinful. Oral sex is a sin though so in that case the sin has already been committed.
I think that vluvski was putting the aforementioned scenario in the context of a marital embrace between a husband and wife with the intent of ending in sexual intercourse. However, as they are involved in foreplay the husband ejaculated too soon (not inside his wife) therefore it is not a sin, if it is accidential. Having said that if the husband is aware of this and does nothing about it, sin has crept into the door.

Again, it comes back to the intention of the act.
 
My NFP teacher told us that while we are trying to avoid pregnancy, everything is OK except climax. And she got this information from a priest who we highly respect and who is very holy.
 
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Consecrated:
vluvski never said “oral sex”, she said “oral stimulation.” And oral stimulation as part of foreplay is most certainly permitted within marriage.
If there is a line between the two then it is very thin if it exists at all.
 
Mirror Mirror:
Here’s a situation I wouldn’t contest: a married couple desires a strong sexual relationship, and has decided to explore oral stimulation as part of foreplay. In learning how the other responds to such stimulation, the wife does not stop in time and the husband is unable to prevent ejaculation before he reaches his wife. This is an accident, and certainly they can wait a bit and try again later. There is no contraceptive intent, nor the desire to separate the pleasure from the marital act. Thus, neither is culpable of sin in this case.

I think that vluvski was putting the aforementioned scenario in the context of a marital embrace between a husband and wife with the intent of ending in sexual intercourse…
No. Read the situation more cafefully. *The wife does not stop - stop what - the exploration of how her husband responds to oral stimultion or oral sex. *My point is that oral sex is wrong in the first place.
 
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jegow:
No. Read the situation more cafefully. *The wife does not stop - stop what - the exploration of how her husband responds to oral stimultion or oral sex. *My point is that oral sex is wrong in the first place.
We can not keep going back and for with – It is wrong! It is Right!!!

Why is it wrong jegow? What is your definition of O.S. (Oral sex/stimulation)? If male climax is not apart of the act, how is it different than other forms of foreplay? This has been discussed many times in other threads… just do a simple search in “Ask an Apologist” on the word “oral”

If you need to continue with this, bring it up in another thread.
 
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Consecrated:
vluvski never said “oral sex”, she said “oral stimulation.” And oral stimulation as part of foreplay is most certainly permitted within marriage.
First, 12345678, was wrong and so is the post that 12345678 directed me to. Here are some document excerpts supporting why I think this.

From: PERSONA HUMANA
IX

Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Church - in the course of a constant tradition - **and the moral sense of the faithful **have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act.[19] The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. For it lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes “the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love.”[20] All deliberate exercise of sexuality must be reserved to this regular relationship. vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html

to be continued …
 
… continued

From: Humanae Vitae

Union
* and Procreation*

12. This particular doctrine, often expounded by the magisterium of the Church, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.

The reason is that the fundamental nature of the marriage act, while uniting husband and wife in the closest intimacy, also renders them capable of generating new life—and this as a result of laws written into the actual nature of man and of woman. And **if **each of these essential qualities, the unitive and the procreative, is preserved, the use of marriage fully retains its sense of true mutual love and its ordination to the supreme responsibility of parenthood to which man is called. We believe that our contemporaries are particularly capable of seeing that this teaching is in harmony with human reason.

Faithfulness to God’s Design

13. Men rightly observe that a conjugal act imposed on one’s partner without regard to his or her condition or personal and reasonable wishes in the matter, is no true act of love, and therefore offends the moral order in its particular application to the intimate relationship of husband and wife. If they further reflect, they must also recognize that an act of mutual love which impairs the capacity to transmit life which God the Creator, through specific laws, has built into it, frustrates His design which constitutes the norm of marriage, and contradicts the will of the Author of life. Hence to use this divine gift while depriving it, even if only partially, of its meaning and purpose, is equally repugnant to the nature of man and of woman, and is consequently in opposition to the plan of God and His holy will. But to experience the gift of married love while respecting the laws of conception is to acknowledge that one is not the master of the sources of life but rather the minister of the design established by the Creator. Just as man does not have unlimited dominion over his body in general, so also, and with more particular reason, he has no such dominion over his specifically sexual faculties, for these are concerned by their very nature with the generation of life, of which God is the source. “Human life is sacred—all men must recognize that fact,” Our predecessor Pope John XXIII recalled. “From its very inception it reveals the creating hand of God.” (13)

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

Especially after reading the part from Persona Humana, can anyone really say that either of the two fall into the normal conjugal relations?

And Matthew George, if your wonderings are in regard to the foreplay or playfulness mentioned in the other other posts that I am responding to, then yes the Church forbids that too. As some offered help I would suggest that you read these documents I have posted in their entirety - they are truly beautiful explanations.
 
You have critically misinterpreted these documents.

Normal relations involve foreplay.

OS does not frustrate or impair the ability to procreate. If a man climaxes, then it does.
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frogman80:
We can not keep going back and for with – It is wrong! It is Right!!!

Why is it wrong jegow? What is your definition of O.S. (Oral sex/stimulation)? If male climax is not apart of the act, how is it different than other forms of foreplay? This has been discussed many times in other threads… just do a simple search in “Ask an Apologist” on the word “oral”

If you need to continue with this, bring it up in another thread.
 
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jegow:
No. Read the situation more cafefully. *The wife does not stop - stop what - the exploration of how her husband responds to oral stimultion or oral sex. *My point is that oral sex is wrong in the first place.
I think that you have been misinterpreting what you have been reading. You have made the statement that “My point is that oral sex is wrong in the first place” and you are only partially correct. Oral sex outside of the husband and wife’s marital embrace is wrong. If a wife performs oral sex on her husband and he climaxes then it is wrong (unless as we have mentioned it is an “accident”). If the husband performs oral sex on his wife and there is no sexual intercourse in that marital act then it is wrong.

If oral sex is performed as a means of foreplay, it is accepted and permissable by the Church within the marital embrace as long as the culmination of that act is the husbands climax inside his wife’s vagina. After that climax the man can perform oral sex on his wife as long as it is within the same “marital embrace.”

Please pick up a copy of Christopher West’s “The Good News of Sex and Marriage” and all of these issues will be clarified. I have a copy of the book and if you have a specific question I will look into the book this evening and see what he says about it. His book is based upon Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.
 
If you think that I have really misread these documents then show me a quotation that justifies what seems to be at the center of this; oral stimulation or oral sex. I also supplied the links so that I would not have to post the whole thing; these are not taken out of context. Maybe you’re misreading Christopher West.
 
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jegow:
If you think that I have really misread these documents then show me a quotation that justifies what seems to be at the center of this; oral stimulation or oral sex. I also supplied the links so that I would not have to post the whole thing; these are not taken out of context. Maybe you’re misreading Christopher West.
Jegow,

What are you searching for? Do you want me to agree with you that ALL oral sex is wrong? If that is what you are asking then I will not tell you that. That would be against what the Church teaches. The Church DOES NOT say that all oral sex is wrong. That seems to be what you are trying to say. If it is within the marital embrace it is “okayed” by the Church. It is acceptable behavior.

Please do a search for “oral” in this section (Moral Theology) or in the Ask an Apologist section and it will show you time and time again that the answer to the question of if oral sex is wrong is no. Oral sex outside of the marital embrace is wrong, within the marital embrace it is accepted. Only between a husband and wife during their sexual relations ending with the husband’s climax inside his wife.

It is tough to misread Christopher West, it is pretty basic, ask anyone that has read the book and they will tell you. If you do not believe me, post a topic on this board and title it “Is Oral Sex always wrong?” See what others have to say. I know what I am talking about on this issue, trust me.

christopherwest.com/
 
Something from other sources mentioned by Mirror Mirror.

"One cannot therefore speak of acting arbitrarily. On the contrary the married couple “must act in conformity with God’s creative intention” (HV 10). Beginning with this principle the encyclical bases its reasoning on the “intimate structure of the conjugal act” and on “the inseperable connection of the two significances of the conjugal act” (cf. HV 12), as was already stated. The relative principle of conjugal morality is, therefore, fidelity to the divine plan manifested in the “intimate structure of the conjugal act” and in the “inseperable connection of the two significances of the conjugal act.”
**
John Paul II
Theology of the Body, page 394
General Audiance of August 1, 1984**
 
jegow said:
**Humane Vitae ** 13. Men rightly observe that a conjugal act imposed on one’s partner without regard to his or her condition or personal and reasonable wishes in the matter, is no true act of love, and therefore offends the moral order in its particular application to the intimate relationship of husband and wife. If they further reflect, they must also recognize that an act of mutual love which impairs the capacity to transmit life which God the Creator, through specific laws, has built into it, frustrates His design which constitutes the norm of marriage, and contradicts the will of the Author of life. Hence to use this divine gift while depriving it,

even if only partially, of its meaning and purpose, is equally repugnant to the nature of man and of woman, and is consequently in opposition to the plan of God and His holy will.
And Matthew George, if your wonderings are in regard to the foreplay or playfulness mentioned in the other other posts that I am responding to, then yes the Church forbids that too. As some offered help I would suggest that you read these documents I have posted in their entirety - they are truly beautiful explanations.
 
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jegow:
Hence to use this divine gift while depriving it, even if only partially, of its meaning and purpose, is equally repugnant to the nature of man and of woman, and is consequently in opposition to the plan of God and His holy will.

And Matthew George, if your wonderings are in regard to the foreplay or playfulness mentioned in the other other posts that I am responding to, then yes the Church forbids that too. As some offered help I would suggest that you read these documents I have posted in their entirety - they are truly beautiful explanations.

They are indeed beautiful explanations, and they lose their beauty by being misinterpreted. The quotation you highlighted above, I believe, does not say what you interpret it to say. “To use this gift while depriving it, even if only partially, of its meaning and purpose…” does not refer to oral stimulation, manual stimulation, or foreplay in general, as components of the act of sexual intercourse. The “deprivation” being referred to is the complete separation of the procreative capacity from sexual intercourse, such as sterilization. “Even if only partially” refers specifically to the limiting of the procreative capacity within sexual intercourse (such as through contraceptive measures that merely limit, though do not eliminate entirely, the procreative capacity inherent to marital intercourse). Pope Paul teaches that it is never the will God that we should eliminate, or even curtail in a partial manner, the procreative capacity of sexual intercourse.

I do not see this document as addressing the morality of foreplay that is fully intended to enable a husband and wife to complete an act of sexual intercourse. In my 20 years of teaching PreCana, I have never heard the interpretation you are suggesting.
 
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jegow:
Something from other sources mentioned by Mirror Mirror.

"One cannot therefore speak of acting arbitrarily. On the contrary the married couple “must act in conformity with God’s creative intention” (HV 10). Beginning with this principle the encyclical bases its reasoning on the “intimate structure of the conjugal act” and on “the inseperable connection of the two significances of the conjugal act” (cf. HV 12), as was already stated. The relative principle of conjugal morality is, therefore, fidelity to the divine plan manifested in the “intimate structure of the conjugal act” and in the “inseperable connection of the two significances of the conjugal act.”
**
John Paul II
Theology of the Body, page 394
General Audiance of August 1, 1984**
I am not sure how you are trying to relate this to your statement that “oral sex is always wrong” maybe I am missing something there? To me, that is what you are trying to say is that it is never okay for a man and his wife to perform oral sex on each other. Is that correct? If I am looking at this wrong please let me know.
 
Mirror Mirror:
If you think that I have really misread these documents then show me a quotation that justifies what seems to be at the center of this; oral stimulation or oral sex. I also supplied the links so that I would not have to post the whole thing; these are not taken out of context. Maybe you’re misreading Christopher West.
Heck… if you don’t like Mr. West… try to read some JPII… “Theology of the Body”, or “Love and Responsibility.”
 
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frogman80:
Heck… if you don’t like Mr. West… try to read some JPII… “Theology of the Body”, or “Love and Responsibility.”
Frog,

Have you read Christopher West? It is a great book, down to earth explanations of many questions, such as this all reated to JPII’s Theology of the Body. What a great read. I am not sure how jegow could question his authority?

Peace Frog!
 
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