NFP and anxiety disorder

[PennitentMan]

Are you willing to risk your wife’s life (if she were to become pregnant) at a higher margin of error than NFP?

But that’s just it, Em, in our case it’s not a higher margin. It will be a seriously lower margin.

 

[PennitentMan]

Simple statistics here - you were in the 1% where the method fails. Over and over again your objection appears to boil down to taking personally being caught by a long shot failure and lookign for someone to blame.

Most NFP failures are actually user errors though, either through not paying sufficient attention to the actual rules or declaring personal exceptions on their own initiative (and then wondering why it didn’t work out the way they thought it should).

Perhaps we need to settle another loose end here: Do you acknowledge that if you require 100% effectiveness at avoiding pregnancy, then 100% abstinence is statistically the only available recourse whether you are Catholic or not (outside of truly dramatic things like elective hysterectomy or castration)?

I’m saying that I require a birth control that is much higher than the % that NFP offers us as a married couple.

At this stage, 99% sounds pretty good, but I KNOW that I’ll not receive that stat from NFP.
So what does the Church teach I do?

 

[PennitentMan]

I have to say again:

Walk a mile in the shoes of someone for whom NFP doesn’t work. Then come back.

I was once like you guys, swaering by it…but live it and then we’ll talk.

The lack of compassion of this teaching to those who struggle with NFP is part of what makes me wonder.

 

[kage_ar]

I have to say again:

Walk a mile in the shoes of someone for whom NFP doesn’t work. Then come back.

I was once like you guys, swaering by it…but live it and then we’ll talk.

The lack of compassion of this teaching to those who struggle with NFP is part of what makes me wonder.

The result of this NFP failure for you is a child. I pray every day for your wife, that her health is maintained throughout the pregnancy.

If the support of this child will leave you destitute, or will put your wife in a state of breakdown, there are people out there who will raise and care for this child.

I and others have advised you to find local support, people with skin on who live near you, who can be there for you. Your Parish or your Diocese will have links to places that can give you material, spiritual, physical and emotional support.

 

[whatevergirl]

I have to say again:

Walk a mile in the shoes of someone for whom NFP doesn’t work. Then come back.

I was once like you guys, swaering by it…but live it and then we’ll talk.

The lack of compassion of this teaching to those who struggle with NFP is part of what makes me wonder.

PM–did your wife get pregnant, while you were both following NFP religiously? (no pun intended)

 

[Ray_Scheel]

I’m saying that I require a birth control that is much higher than the % that NFP offers us as a married couple

NFP only works at the 99% rate with strict application of the rules as they have been worked out by the developers of methods claiming those success rates. When someone repeatedly expresses an inclination to want the rules re-written to accommodate them, that raises doubts as to how effectively they would follow any birth control regimen. I’ve already mentioned my suspicion of a possible correlation between NFP failing and your frequent public expressions of chafing at the very idea of periodic abstinence along with your trying to apply statements to what you want them to say in ways that are not only inaccurate but actually contradicted by your supposed source material.

At this stage, 99% sounds pretty good, but I KNOW that I’ll not receive that stat from NFP.

If you require something that is more than 99% effective, then then 100% abstinence is statistically the only available recourse whether you are Catholic or not (outside of truly dramatic things like elective total hysterectomy or mechanical castration). End of story, statistically speaking, as EVERYTHING else has a non-zero failure rate.

So what does the Church teach I do?

The Church has given you your options. You happen to find none of them satisfactory, though at least one of them will achieve the end you say is a requirement in the only way that requirement can actually be guaranteed.

Did you ever send your charts to the current developers / maintainers of your chosen method for feedback in evaluation for how the method may have failed? If so, what feedback have you gotten about the completeness and consistency of your records?

 

[Em_in_FL]

But that’s just it, Em, in our case it’s not a higher margin. It will be a seriously lower margin.

The fact that NFP failed for you doesn’t make the statistical failure rate of condoms any better…

So you’re still willing to risk her life if she were to become pregnant using condoms?

 

[agapewolf]

If NFP was used to the T…and “failed”…it means that a baby was conceived even though the woman was not ovulating. This, my friend, is a MIRACLE!!! Why can’t people see this? Why is it instead, a “failure”? God saw your invitation in…and he decided to show up even though you didn’t think he could make it. It is a miracle!

 

[whatevergirl]

If NFP was used to the T…and “failed”…it means that a baby was conceived even though the woman was not ovulating. This, my friend, is a MIRACLE!!! Why can’t people see this? Why is it instead, a “failure”? God saw your invitation in…and he decided to show up even though you didn’t think he could make it. It is a miracle!

Awww–this is how I explained it (well used different wording) to my dh–that despite following NFP, if we are still pregnant, then it is God’s will for us to have that baby by golly!!!

PM–hang in there, my brother in Christ. You are a good husband…you are married a great woman. Life sometimes hands us heavy crosses–this too shall pass, and in the end, we’ll all know why this happened. God bless you.

 

[PennitentMan]

If you require something that is more than 99% effective, then then 100% abstinence is statistically the only available recourse whether you are Catholic or not (outside of truly dramatic things like elective total hysterectomy or mechanical castration). End of story, statistically speaking, as EVERYTHING else has a non-zero failure rate.

So why do we not hear of nearly as many people who use condoms or have vasectomies that got pregnant by mistake, as we do on NFP?

The Church has given you your options. You happen to find none of them satisfactory, though at least one of them will achieve the end you say is a requirement in the only way that requirement can actually be guaranteed.

Yes. Abstinence. I cannot even imagine living for the rest of our lives, me with the woman I love, in abstinence. That’s incredibly cold and heartless to even suggest.

Did you ever send your charts to the current developers / maintainers of your chosen method for feedback in evaluation for how the method may have failed? If so, what feedback have you gotten about the completeness and consistency of your records?

No we haven’t. We have been rather busy dealing with all the **** that the pregnancy has brought on so far.

 

[PennitentMan]

The fact that NFP failed for you doesn’t make the statistical failure rate of condoms any better…

So you’re still willing to risk her life if she were to become pregnant using condoms?

Honestly, at this stage I’m even starting to consider a vasectomy, coupled with another ABC.

At least there will be a unitive aspect left then…

 

[PennitentMan]

PM–did your wife get pregnant, while you were both following NFP religiously? (no pun intended)

Yeah we did.

Conception happened 7 days after the last signs of fertile mucous and other indications of ovulation had passed…

 

[PennitentMan]

PM;

I’m sorry for your suffering, and your wife’s. Your wife is pregnant now, right? I am sorry for forgetting some of your wife’s health details–but is she being pregnant considered life threatening? I’m reading through this thread, and noticed that you have to witness your wife threatening suicide…is this because she is concerned about her health, if pregnant?

It’s because all the physical complications of pregnancy and subsequent childbirth and caring for a newborn would be too much for her to handle. Even with #2 on the way it’s already a very major concern for her, and a source of great panic, anxiety and emotional distress, on top of all the physical complications…

Another baby after this one would honestly push her over the edge of reason, she said that herself, and I have to agree.

Coupled to that, another pregnancy will cause her to not be able to function for the 9 months, seriously threaten her health,
meaning we have no one to care for the children, I’d loose my job because I’d be that person…etc

 

[PennitentMan]

Because the moral good outweighs the temporal suffering.

I gotta wonder if the morality was imposed by man and not God.

A small part of why I say this is because God said that he will not give us more than we can handle…and we are already coming apart at the seams…what will happen with another child? Just continue to have babies and give them all up for adoption each time?
Barring the immense physical and emotional battle it is for my wife just to be pregnant, can you imagine adding to that giving her children up for adoption, not because she doesn’t love them, but because we cannot take care of them?
How responsible is that?

We have a responsibility to our family…the one we have, not to anything that does not exist.

Also, if the temporal suffering you mention involve my wife committing suicide? Would using a condom be so much more evil than people sitting back watching someone kill herself? And of course the repercussions to the family she would leave behind.

The responsible thing to do is to use whatever means to protect the family structure and integrity.

 

[kage_ar]

Is there some issue with you or your wife’s extended family or within your Parish?

This really should be a separate thread, but, God did NOT create us to live as isolated islands. He designed us to live in community, with our physical and our spiritual families to support and strenghten us.

 

[kage_ar]

Also, if the temporal suffering you mention involve my wife committing suicide? Would using a condom be so much more evil than people sitting back watching someone kill herself? And of course the repercussions to the family she would leave behind.

The responsible thing to do is to use whatever means to protect the family structure and integrity./quote

In such a state, you and your wife need to seek both medical intervention for the depression/anxiety and spiritual support from a Priest.

Many prayers!

 

[PennitentMan]

Is there some issue with you or your wife’s extended family or within your Parish?

No, there are no issues, we are just very far away from any sort of support structure. We are relatively new to the country and very new to our parish.

We don’t know anybody at all.

I guess sometimes it takes one of the more dire cases to shed light on some of the areas that is not functioing 100%

 

[kage_ar]

No, there are no issues, we are just very far away from any sort of support structure. We are relatively new to the country and very new to our parish.

We don’t know anybody at all.

I guess sometimes it takes one of the more dire cases to shed light on some of the areas that is not functioing 100%

Perhaps you and your wife would want to look at moving close to your family and your support structure. Christ instructed us to lift each other up, to support each other - you are just screaming out for support.

Please, reach out to the people who know and love you, to those who will encourage and support you in the Faith.

 

[PennitentMan]

In such a state, you and your wife need to seek both medical intervention for the depression/anxiety and spiritual support from a Priest.

Many prayers!

She cannot take any medication for it, since she’s pregnant (Or will be in a future similar situation). She’s been to councilling already to sort out past issues, and we also have consulted with a priest, but on one here will like his councilling.

 

[PennitentMan]

Perhaps you and your wife would want to look at moving close to your family and your support structure. Christ instructed us to lift each other up, to support each other - you are just screaming out for support.

Please, reach out to the people who know and love you, to those who will encourage and support you in the Faith.

Our familes are on the other side of the world…literally. We left the country because it is extremely dangerous there and we could not eventhink of starting a family with that level of stability.