NFP and anxiety disorder

[monicatholic]

Conception happened 7 days after the last signs of fertile mucous and other indications of ovulation had passed…

this happened to me. i was 5 days past period, NO fertile signs, following the every other day rule to a fault (every third day pre-ov.)

it was baby number 9.

i was terrified, shocked, angry as hell. i was heading for another 4- 6 months of hormonal depression. 4- 6 months on the couch, throwing up, useless. every pregnancy had gotten harder. i thought this one would just put me in the ground. and we were poor. and because of all of it, my husband was on the brink of taking a vow of abstinence. we argued over it. really.

my nfp instructor asked for my chart. at the diocese, she and the other nfp gurus determined it really WAS the one percent unexplained pregnancy rate-- not due to user fault.

P, God wanted that baby in His world. PM, God wants your little baby in His world. that baby will make you a better husband, a better father, a better Christian man.

you and your wife need community. go to your priest. tell him everything. if he is usless, go to another priest. we’ll all pray you find the right man for your help.

your wife needs psychological help. she should not be left to struggle and suffer with the fears she has. and you should not NOT feel responsible to help her in a way only the doctor can. you have not failed her but only a doctor and God’s grace can help her.

please stay in the Church. because whatever you think you need in this world, what could you need MORE than Jesus’ perfect love given to you in His Body and Blood?

peace.blessings.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

So why do we not hear of nearly as many people who use condoms or have vasectomies that got pregnant by mistake, as we do on NFP?

Perhaps because you are hanging out in Catholic circles where that is the method most talked about? No one puts condoms even close in effectiveness to the more reliable methods (hormones, IUD, NFP, “sterilization”).

Yes. Abstinence. I cannot even imagine living for the rest of our lives, me with the woman I love, in abstinence. That’s incredibly cold and heartless to even suggest.

It is you and your wife saying that 100% effectiveness is a requirement, not anyone else or the Church. You’ve left yourself very few options - either abstain or accept some risk. That part of the decision is yours alone.

Honestly, at this stage I’m even starting to consider a vasectomy, coupled with another ABC.

So is 100% effectiveness a requirement or not? You seem to keep suggesting you are willing to accept more than that level of risk as long as it didn’t include periodic abstinence as part of the picture.

No we haven’t. We have been rather busy dealing with all the **** that the pregnancy has brought on so far.

Putting your charts in an envelope to get some answers would almost certainly take less time than you’ve spent just today criticizing the effectiveness of NFP.

 

[PennitentMan]

It is you and your wife saying that 100% effectiveness is a requirement, not anyone else or the Church. You’ve left yourself very few options - either abstain or accept some risk. That part of the decision is yours alone.

It’s a descision forced on us…no sex or risking death…

If the choice was left up to me it’s be a diiferent ballgame all together.

Ray, I’m done having you criticise me in the manner you are.

Maybe I’m just perceiving it as harsh and it’s not actually so, but I find nothing in your posts that show compassion, attempt in understanding, or anything.

I’m reading the other posts here, trying to understand the teachings, whilst giving my opinions why I see them a wrong. It’ll take more to convince me, but at least we are having discussions…

All I’m saying is that I perceive a lack of compassion for failed NFP users in the Church and it has hurt me and many others…to the point of me wanting to leave the Church all together.

Can we not discuss this lie adults? You seem to get irate by the topic at hand. Is this a sore spot for you?

Just be nice, okay?

 

[monicatholic]

Penitent Man,

I’m reading that your wife, when pregnant is suicidal. Are there other medical conditions that pregnancy threatens? if there are not, then PenitentMan, it isn’t pregnancy that threatens your wife’s life-- it’s a profound emotional or mental disturbance. please, PM, find help for her.

All I’m saying is that I perceive a lack of compassion for failed NFP users in the Church and it has hurt me and many others…to the point of me wanting to leave the Church all together.

I have compassion because it was me.

God cannot be forced or coerced to ensoul a human body. from the beginning of forever, God has desired each and every soul as if it were his only beloved. from the beginning of forever, God has desired for the creation of the souls of every single one of your children. at the moment of conception, God created that most beloved soul and gave it to your child.

I have compassion for the difficulty seeing past fears, finances, exhaustion, anger and the feeling of having been duped by God. I have compassion for all of that because it was me. it was us-- my husband and i.

but those terrors dissipate in the face of the reality-- God has always desired this child and He has always willed for this child to be ours.

i have deep compassion ,PM. and I have equal measure of joy that God has chosen most beloved souls for you and your wife to bring into the world.

please help bring your wife to resources for mental health so you may both enjoy this truth, too.

 

[dulcissima]

So why do we not hear of nearly as many people who use condoms or have vasectomies that got pregnant by mistake, as we do on NFP?

I guess because it is a subject most people don’t like to talk about. I will tell you though that I have 4 children, all conceived while using ABC of one sort or another. So, I can tell you about failures from the pill, withdrawl, and I can’t not tell you how many times condoms have broken. I love my children dearly, so I don’t go around talking about “failures” or “mistakes.” They are surprises.

I just want to let you know that it is foolish to think that these artificial methods give you any more control over your wife’s fertility than NFP. If anything, they give you a false sence of “security” that I think will have a negative effect on your marriage. I think the contraceptive mentality might already be causing you some troubles, so I think fully giving yourself over to contraception would cause even more.

Since becoming a Catholic and coming to understand more deeply the Church’s teaching on sexuality, I am more convinced than ever that the Church has a very deep understanding of this mystery between a husband and a wife, which unites them not only to each other, but also to God. It’s like the world is doing everything possible to keep us from experiencing this. I wish you wouldn’t buy into all of that.

I mean, I think it is totally amazing how a woman’s body works. I think it must be amazing to have a husband who gets to know his wife on that level, where he knows what is going on with her, that this is something that they share together. I think it is nice too, because then you are talking about what you want together. And do you know what, if 7 days past signs of feritility your wife becomes pregnant, then you need to support her and acknowledge, like agapewolf said, that a miracle has happened. A new life, even with the challenges that it brings, is always a cause for celebration. There is something really and seriously wrong if that new life is making you doubt your faith, making you doubt the Church that Jesus gave us. I wouldn’t look at blaming the Church, I would look at my own life and see what is needed from me. A lot of times we have our own issues that we are not addressing. I think if you find yourself doubting your faith and blaming the Church that is a sure sign that you are long overdue in needing to do something about those issues.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

It’s a descision forced on us…no sex or risking death…

If the choice was left up to me it’s be a diiferent ballgame all together.

I’m sure it would be, but the fact that is the choice you are left with isn’t the fault of NFP, just like it wasn’t the fault of NFP that my ex for years used refusing to chart reliably as an excuse for avoiding intimacy altogether. The NFP itself is morally neutral, it is our intents that matter.

Ray, I’m done having you criticise me in the manner you are.

Maybe I’m just perceiving it as harsh and it’s not actually so, but I find nothing in your posts that show compassion, attempt in understanding, or anything.

I’ll admit to having done a bit of tree shaking. I’d seen others trying to explain things to you, and you hopping form one thing to another, then coming back to some of the same old inaccurate / false statements that had already been challenged in other threads where you’d just changed the subject before rather than stop to think it through with the help of those of us who have been following your story. You’ve been dealt a bad hand, yes, I empathize, but what you’ve been doing here has not been helping you improve your options at all, and up until now I don’t think you’ve paid any attention to how you have been coming across to others.

This is the part where you imagine someone grabbing you by the shoulders and shaking you while saying “Snap out of it”. It is long past time for you to start looking for solutions to problems you can do something about: determining for sure what happened with regard to your NFP charting, getting a more robust support system built up for your family, looking into alternatives that can support your wife medically until there is more available for her post-partum. For the next 6-9 months, there are a great many much more constructive things for you to be doing than focusing so much energy (and negative energy at that) on how you’ve been failed by NFP. You can do better than this, I know you can. I have more I wanted to say, but its gotten too late and I don’t want ot blow it, but please - slow down and listen to the advise you are getting from so many people here, and try to quite working form a position of trying to find blame and instead look for the things you can improve without incurring sin

 

[kage_ar]

Our familes are on the other side of the world…literally. We left the country because it is extremely dangerous there and we could not eventhink of starting a family with that level of stability.

From the way you describe your life now, living with no family, no friends and a wife who is living in terror of raising a child - it would appear the place you chose to live is also dangerous and unstable.

I do not have a quick answer for you, but, you NEED a support system, you and your wife and child need people of faith who love you and care about you.

Please, find them.

 

[Good_Daughter]

I have to bring your attention to this gem:

Look at the second part of this paragraph:
In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil

Surely NFP is such an action. Hence NFP is intrinsically evil too. No question about that. It’s contradictory.

This is the precise starting point for your misunderstanding of Catholic teaching.

The term procreative as used in places like the CCC and HV refers to favouring creation. In other words, when sex is procreative, nothing has been done to sever its creative potential (fertility). A couple using NFP to postpone pregnancy has sex when that creative potential is naturally absent.

Reproduction, though sometimes a part, is not essental to being procreative. For this reason, expectant (or otherwise infertile) couples are capable of procreative sex.

You seem to equate the term procreative with the term reproductive which Church teaching does not do. To make a given sex act procreative (or contraceptive) is a choice God allows us. To make a given sex act reproductive (or non-reproductive) is a choice God retains for himself.

Sorry for my part in derailing this thread. I would have placed PennitentMan’s quote and my reply in a new thread if I’d had a clue how to do that.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

PM:

Picking up where I started to fade out last night:

You’ve previously mentioned concerns about abstaining too much causing damage to your marriage relationship. I know from experience with my ex that not being able to bond with one’s spouse in that way is torture. Still, it was my duty, as the spiritual head of the family, to look for what I could do to mitigate the effects of what I could not control myself and try my hardest to steer both myself and my family away from thing that would be detrimental to the souls involved.

One thing to keep in mind here is that when you find yourself looking at “solutions” to protect your marriage and find yourself trying to justify leading yourself and your spouse into the mouth of the lion, the “solution” you are considering is not the right one, no matter how much easier the path looks. It is always better in the long run to stay on the harder path trying to get to the heavenly banquet than to steer off in a direction that looks easier for a while but winds up with your family being the main course when you get to the end of the road.

This isn’t easy, or fair, but any guarantees of life being either ended back in Genesis 3. I don’t have any pat answers for you on what exactly to do to overcome the challenges you are faced with, but I am certain that you won’t make progress on resolving those issues if you keep focusing on lashing out about how NFP failed you - while not even send your charts off for others to possibly benefit with method refinements that your experience might unveil (or getting advanced instruction/insight on things that might help in your particular case). Its time to move past that, or at least set it aside, and take up the challenge of finding the support your family needs with the hand you have been dealt. That is what marks a true leader - taking charge when things go badly and making the best of the situation for the entire area of responsibility as it stands then; moping about on what would be preferred doesn’t help much, not until things are stabilized and there is time to go back over what happened to prevent it form happening again.

For a little while at least, you don’t have to worry about abstaining. You might for a while postpartum, but there are some additional precautions that can be implemented in cases where the parts of the methods that work for 95%+ of the population are not sufficient (e.g. Phase three, Peak+4 only, with peak confirmed with a corresponding OPK result and a temperature shift) as well as verifying other medical issues interfering with symptoms have been addressed (thyroid levels, use of anti-histamines and decongestants, vitamin and mineral absorption issues, etc). But, until that is an issue, your have time to get more answers on what went wrong and possibly work out a strategy where you can continue to rely on a strict method of NFP that addresses the possibility of where it might have failed before and to get your entire family into a better position to accept children.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

PennitentMan,

I note the following:

Depression can be treated even for people who are pregnant.
My sister goes psychotic about three months after having a baby, isolation appears to be the main problem as she is an American in Germany. When she is pregnant, she is treated. After she has the baby, the medication is changed to stronger medications to help her avoid going psychotic again. I don’t see where your argument --“she can’t be treated” comes from – perhaps she doesn’t WANT to be treated?
(Besides, this suicide act is all kinds of power on her part,
to justify what – getting your attention? or as a lever for you against others on the forum?)

The thing is, when a woman has a baby inside – the child produces hormones which actually help the woman along in dealing with depression … So, overly depressed women who are more than a month along indicates other medical problems.

Also, If this is a real situation, it is only a matter of time (due to the way you indicate that you are affected) that your wife will crack you emotionally. The it will be you who has to take medication.

As for the failure of NFP – I have walked that road. You won’t see me arguing that using contraception is a Good or Equivalent thing to NFP. (Besides, I absolutely love my kids.) Contraception is very much against God’s plan for each of us.

I think you have a far deeper marital problem, and also some children to think about. At a certain point, if you do not take appropriate action with your wife and treatment – you may find yourself in a horrid position with your wife emotionally abusing your children with the suicide threats. It doesn’t get better by caving in. What generally happens is she will drag others into your marriage to attack you, and gain sympathy for her. None of this is good for the children.

 

[PennitentMan]

but what you’ve been doing here has not been helping you improve your options at all, and up until now I don’t think you’ve paid any attention to how you have been coming across to others.

Maybe you are right. It’s tough to see that when you are so close to the issue.

for sure what happened with regard to your NFP charting,

Nothing “happened”, as if implying that it was user error. It was an NFP failure. We had these cahrts examied…not by the NFP teachers (something that is not easy to come by in our Diocese) but by our family doctor who councils and encourages NFP. His reasoning was, (and also folks here that I consulted on the topic when it arose) that it was genuine failure. I’m sorry if you cannot belive that, but it was.

For the next 6-9 months, there are a great many much more constructive things for you to be doing than focusing so much energy (and negative energy at that) on how you’ve been failed by NFP.

Good point, I have other things to focus on…but just to clarify, I only post at work, when things are slow. First few days this week was slow…last two, not so much.

You can do better than this, I know you can. I have more I wanted to say, but its gotten too late and I don’t want ot blow it, but please - slow down and listen to the advise you are getting from so many people here, and try to quite working form a position of trying to find blame and instead look for the things you can improve without incurring sin

I have been heeding all the advice given to me from the start. I read all the encyclicals, CW’s publications, marriage enrichment books, I adapted the way I treat my wife, I did it all.

You’ve previously mentioned concerns about abstaining too much causing damage to your marriage relationship. I know from experience with my ex that not being able to bond with one’s spouse in that way is torture. Still, it was my duty, as the spiritual head of the family, to look for what I could do to mitigate the effects of what I could not control myself and try my hardest to steer both myself and my family away from thing that would be detrimental to the souls involved.

And I have been doing that since this problem started approx 3 years ago now. I use this forum to gain more (name removed by moderator)ut and ideas (as posted above)

One thing to keep in mind here is that when you find yourself looking at “solutions” to protect your marriage and find yourself trying to justify leading yourself and your spouse into the mouth of the lion, the “solution” you are considering is not the right one, no matter how much easier the path looks. It is always better in the long run to stay on the harder path trying to get to the heavenly banquet than to steer off in a direction that looks easier for a while but winds up with your family being the main course when you get to the end of the road.

The “Solution” you are referring to is the only one for me that I can see. I totally understand where you are coming from and that it’s not the Catholic solution. However, we have been scarred with NFP and I cannot honestly justify going back to it at this stage of my life. My wife feels the same. There cannot be any margin for error. NFP alone does not give us the effectiveness we require for where we are as a family at this time in our lives.

Like I said before, until you are in that situation yourself, you cannot understand where I’m coming from and that’s one of the issues I have with the Church…they do not understand, do not try, but instead, like some people here, just push harder and show no compassion on the teachings…like one would expect.

I do not for one moment believe that God will condemn me to Hell for not following this teaching. He is more compassionate than anyone. He understands our hearts and he knows my conscience. Does the CCC not speak about following your conscience?

It’s not the easier way, it’s the only way that I have to protect my family unit, until such time as we can get a better support structure, and help for my wife.

I’ll not post here about this again then.

My path forward is clear.
I have some decisions to make, i.e whether to stay in the Church, and dissent, or leave all together. As I have explained, I cannot find the solution in Catholic teaching, even tough I have tried from every angle. (Of course to some folks here, I have not done enough, but that’s their opinion.) The risk to my family right now is too great.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

PennitentMan,

With all due respect – bull.

From your descriptions, so far, I have had every bit as much trouble as you, with pedophile priests to boot, violent drunks, and more. I have also had a single NFP failure (the rule was changed not too long after that to add 1 more day) because some people – like me, seem to have extra extra long lived seed. However, that is one failure in 14 years of marriage – and we know the cause, and the rule was changed. There are also alternate ways to make the measurements now which help correct for false signs.

I have Zero sympathy for the kind of propaganda you are pushing.
The fact is, I almost think you are joking in bad taste because you seem to enjoy it. It isn’t because I don’t understand the mess you are portraying – quite the opposite (sadly). But, you have a decision to make – whether or not pennitentMan is a sarcastic label or not. You aren’t your own judge, nor am I.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

I have also had a single NFP failure (the rule was changed not too long after that to add 1 more day) because some people – like me, seem to have extra extra long lived seed. However, that is one failure in 14 years of marriage – and we know the cause, and the rule was changed. There are also alternate ways to make the measurements now which help correct for false signs.

This is exactly why I am baffled as to why PM has declined to send his charts to the organization overseeing the continuing refinement of the NFP method he and his wife use (whatever it is, I don’t recall him ever naming it) and appears quite determined to not do so as well as flatly refusing to consider additional measures known to boost its reliability (which they really should have been using all along if they really were sure of their need for 100% reliability).

One thing I have seen too often (my own case included) is a wife (usually) with mental issues that extended to a dislike of sex who then tried to manipulate the charts to unduly limit the number of days that would otherwise be available for relations that the husband then blamed NFP as the reason for his frustration.

 

[Living4Him]

I just wanted to chime in here with some suggestions. I love the sympto-thermal method because it takes into account temps & cm. If you don’t like charting on paper I recommend getting the software at ovusoft.com/ & charting on your computer. I loooooove doing it this way and have actually never charted on paper. Ovusoft also has a VERY active forum where you can ask all kinds of questions about charting. Also, if you reeeeally want extra, extra comfort you could buy a Clear Blue Easy Fertility Monitor. It’s just one more thing that could help you p(name removed by moderator)oint ovulation. On the Ovusoft software they have a place where you can mark your fertility monitor readings & it will take it into consideration when marking your ovulation date. I bought my CBEFM off of ebay for a really good price if you decide to get one. HTH.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

PM and others. It breaks my heart that you speak of a “failure”. I understand your difficuties. I am sometimes crippled by depression. Please do not speak of your new son or daughter as a failure. They are a gift. Not only that, God felt this child so important that He has had to overcome your plans to do so.
Please try to get treatment for your wife and healing for yourself. You already sound as if you are physically and mentally hurting don’t plan on hurting your soul as well.
May God fill you and your dear wife with His peace.

 

[dove_of_peace]

With all due respect – bull

I have Zero sympathy for the kind of propaganda you are pushing.
The fact is, I almost think you are joking in bad taste because you seem to enjoy it. It isn’t because I don’t understand the mess you are portraying – quite the opposite (sadly). But, you have a decision to make – whether or not pennitentMan is a sarcastic label or not. You aren’t your own judge, nor am I.

Wow, as the original OP of this thread, I hope you don’t feel this way about me, too, because I can relate a lot to what PM is saying. “Zero sympathy”? That seems kinda harsh to me. Speaking for myself, no one but God knows the pain and struggle I go through with this and I certainly don’t enjoy it I know I have a decision to make…may you never have to bear the cross of mental illness.

Peace.

 

[dove_of_peace]

BTW- I posted my original question in the Moral Theology forum (seems like it fit there), don’t know how it ended up in this one.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Wow, as the original OP of this thread, I hope you don’t feel this way about me, too

There is a nearly year-long long posting history on this issue by PM where he was frustrated and blaming NFP from his first post that you didn’t see unfold. (as well as a steadily increasing demand for NFP to either be a perfect solution or abandon it altogether, even though NFP isn’t the issue when his wife told him sex was going to be rare no matter what) I’ve seen no hint from your posts thus far of the same attitude.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Wow, as the original OP of this thread, I hope you don’t feel this way about me, too, because I can relate a lot to what PM is saying. “Zero sympathy”? That seems kinda harsh to me. Speaking for myself, no one but God knows the pain and struggle I go through with this and I certainly don’t enjoy it I know I have a decision to make…may you never have to bear the cross of mental illness.

Peace.

I know you relate to some of what he says, but look carefully at all that PenintentMan is saying – let me compare you two briefly, to calm the difference:

You are seeing a psychiatrist and trying to deal with the anxiety yourself – which although a very difficult problem – you are being treated.

Penitent man is blaming his wife and using her as a “hostage” argument at the same time, and not seeking treatment for himself. If even HE were to be treated for depression, the problems could be lessened. It is rather well known that there are two kinds of anti-depressents for men – those that quiet sexual desire somewhat, and those that don’t. If the problem is on Pennitent man’s part (which he tries to partially claim in his posts)-- he could be treated himself. So, let’s assume it is on the part of his wife (to be nice) – who refuses treatment. (I know exactly what that is like). How does that affect Penitent Man?

All he is advocating is a way to justify using the condom – I’ll note you do not justify it, but rather call it “irrational”. So, rather than try and solve the problem – PenitentMan is really advocating starting the problem. And notice how he does it:

What about non-abortive contraception?

I cannot believe that it’s intrinsically evil as the Church labels it.

Non-Abortive ABC in conjunction with NFP may increase the odds of saving the parent’s life.
But even if the life is in danger it’s a no-no…it doesn’t make sense and unnecessarily hard. It drives people away.

He claims that the Church and Jesus are wrong here, and the saving of a life in his case – is a wife who threatens suicide, and refuses treatment.

I have to say again:

Walk a mile in the shoes of someone for whom NFP doesn’t work. Then come back.

I was once like you guys, swaering by it…but live it and then we’ll talk.

The lack of compassion of this teaching to those who struggle with NFP is part of what makes me wonder.

Now this is where I become upset, because PennitentMan has spoken on my behalf here in a tricky way: he has used me, and all those like me as a weapon in his argument – although I definitely do not agree with him. So, he has dragged my name into the mud. I have Zero sympathy for that kind of argument.

In the end God judges each of us, myself included, and he knows when people drag others into non-truth by using faked hostages.
Dove of Peace – I am not anyone’s judge as to how God will deal with them – but when someone sins against me, and uses me, I think I have an obligation to tell the truth when it will do some good.

 

[dove_of_peace]

Ray and Huiou,

I see the difference now. Thank you for your replies

Peace