NFP and contraception

[Chrono13]

So why isn’t everyone that commits this act slain by God?

I can’t answer this question. People are not getting slained each and every time they commit something of the sort. We can thank God for that. Masturbation would be mortal not only by sinful nature.

He is probably waiting in His mercy. Or punishing evil on other way. But I don’t think argument that non-existance of punishment is much of the argument.

 

[Nate13]

I haven’t used either in my marriage. However, I have been in a situation where NFP wasn’t going to work reliably, and we were told not to get pregnant by the doctor for health reasons. That’s what made me really realize how the Church’s stance on contraception in general is more legalistic rather than spiritual: we would have been open to having another child immediately if it weren’t “unadvisable” by the doctors.

There is a HUGE difference if lifestyle between choosing NFP or contraception. You might think this would be an indicator that there is a moral difference as well… It’s similar to saying dieting and being bulimic are the same thing. Both result in weight loss and have the same intent… This is just a legalistic difference of course though.

 

[Warrior1979]

I can’t answer this question. People are not getting slained each and every time they commit something of the sort. We can thank God for that. Masturbation would be mortal not only by sinful nature.

He is probably waiting in His mercy. Or punishing evil on other way. But I don’t think argument that non-existance of punishment is much of the argument.

Or it could be that Onan simply disobeyed God and was punished. If that’s the case, the story is straightforward and makes complete sense…no further speculation is necessary. Sometimes the simplest and most obvious explanation is the correct one.

 

[Nate13]

So why isn’t everyone that commits this act slain by God?

That would make it easier to know right from wrong wouldn’t it I’ll take the new covenant that Jesus’ sacrifice established and the idea of mercy over Old Testament rules haha.

 

[Chrono13]

Or it could be that Onan simply disobeyed God and was punished. If that’s the case, the story is straightforward and makes complete sense…no further speculation is necessary. Sometimes the simplest and most obvious explanation is the correct one.

It can be done so, yes. Especially when you take into account that Tamar did not report wasting of the seed to officials.

 

[Abu]

Warrior1979, #1171
Re So why isn’t everyone that commits this act slain by God?

Unfortunately irrelevant questions help no one. Catholics are taught that God so loved mankind that He offered His own Son for suffering and crucifixion to redeem mankind.

The certainty of the infallibility of the doctrine against contraception in Casti Connubii and in Humanae Vitae comes from the dogma in Vatican I (post #1150), reaffirmed by Vatican II (Lumen Gentium, 25):
“The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful – who confirms his brethren in the faith (cf. Lk 22:32) – he proclaims in an absolute decision a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.”

Thus, no dogma has to be affirmed, nor anyone anathematized, nor the word “define” or “definition” used for an infallible papal teaching – only that the Pope is handing down a certain, decisive judgment that a point of doctrine on faith or morals is true and its contrary false.

The futility of trying to sabotage the truth which the Church proclaims is beautifully put into perspective in Post #305 by Fr Brian W Harrison in dealing with the dissenting preconceptions:
rtforum.org/lt/lt67.html
“That Onan’s unnatural act as such is condemned as sinful in Gen. 38: 9-10 was an interpretation held by the Fathers and Doctors of the Catholic Church, by the Protestant Reformers, and by nearly all celibate and married theologians of all Christian denominations until the early years of this century, when some exegetes began to approach the text with preconceptions deriving from the sexual decadence of modern Western culture and its exaggerated concern for ‘over-population.’ ”

Those readers wanting truth can feast on Living Tradition of the Roman Theological Forum at: rtforum.org/lt/index.html

BTW #43 is: The *Ex Cathedra *Status of the Encyclical Humanae Vitae

 

[Good_Daughter]

Chrono13:
I’m going to bow out of our discussion now as we’re not likely to come to an understanding before the thread is closed. Though we rarely agreed, I enjoyed our dialogue very much and hope to talk to you again.

copperblade:
Toward the end of the thread you seem to be expressing some personal frustration with Catholic teaching on marital sexuality. I wish I had the words to answer your questions and I pray that you and your wife find them.

 

[Warrior1979]

Unfortunately irrelevant questions help no one. Catholics are taught that God so loved mankind that He offered His own Son for suffering and crucifixion to redeem mankind.

The certainty of the infallibility of the doctrine against contraception in Casti Connubii and in Humanae Vitae comes from the dogma in Vatican I (post #1150), reaffirmed by Vatican II (Lumen Gentium, 25):
“The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful – who confirms his brethren in the faith (cf. Lk 22:32) – he proclaims in an absolute decision a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.”

Thus, no dogma has to be affirmed, nor anyone anathematized, nor the word “define” or “definition” used for an infallible papal teaching – only that the Pope is handing down a certain, decisive judgment that a point of doctrine on faith or morals is true and its contrary false.

The futility of trying to sabotage the truth which the Church proclaims is beautifully put into perspective in Post #305 by Fr Brian W Harrison in dealing with the dissenting preconceptions:
rtforum.org/lt/lt67.html
“That Onan’s unnatural act as such is condemned as sinful in Gen. 38: 9-10 was an interpretation held by the Fathers and Doctors of the Catholic Church, by the Protestant Reformers, and by nearly all celibate and married theologians of all Christian denominations until the early years of this century, when some exegetes began to approach the text with preconceptions deriving from the sexual decadence of modern Western culture and its exaggerated concern for ‘over-population.’ ”

Those readers wanting truth can feast on Living Tradition of the Roman Theological Forum at: rtforum.org/lt/index.html

BTW #43 is: The *Ex Cathedra *Status of the Encyclical Humanae Vitae

Though this is obviously incredibly difficult for you to do (or maybe impossible), you should actually try to understand what people are saying.

Do you really believe that that fact that Onan disobeyed God by not having children is irrelevant? The method to disobey God is secondary to the discussion. But since you are so obsessed with the method, you can’t see the forest through the trees.

I guess ignorance truly is bliss, as you repeatedly claim.

 

[copperblade]

There is a HUGE difference if lifestyle between choosing NFP or contraception. You might think this would be an indicator that there is a moral difference as well… It’s similar to saying dieting and being bulimic are the same thing. Both result in weight loss and have the same intent… This is just a legalistic difference of course though.

I appreciate the correlation you’re trying to make, but I don’t think that’s a “legalistic difference” and I never said the difference between NFP and other contraception was legalistic.

I have another example that I’ve mentioned here before, but perhaps you’d have to experience it yourself to recognize the shades of gray. Of course the Catholic answer to these shades of gray is pretty much, “just abstain and get over it.” I don’t have any argument against that. In fact the choice to abstain was because no contraception is 100% and I won’t risk being put in a position where a doctor would tell us we should have an abortion.

So since no contraception is 100%, it doesn’t really answer your original question with 100% satisfaction.

 

[copperblade]

Toward the end of the thread you seem to be expressing some personal frustration with Catholic teaching on marital sexuality. I wish I had the words to answer your questions and I pray that you and your wife find them.

Thank you. We’re actually very happy, and get along really well. It’s really no big deal–there really is so much more to life after all.

 

[Abu]

Warrior1979
Do you really believe that that fact that Onan disobeyed God by not having children is irrelevant?

The fact that God killed Onan for practising contraception (withdrawal), a grave sin, is important enough to be used as an example by the Saints and Popes.

That God seldom practises such earthly intervention for that, or any other, grave sin is so blatantly obvious that the question “so why isn’t everyone that commits this act slain by God?” is moronic.

The key is assent to dogma and doctrine, with the obedience of faith as St Paul emphasises (Rom 1:5; 16.26) and, as St Escriva advises so well, to be simple but not simpletons. In other words those who believe in nothing but their feelings will tend to fall for anything.

Perhaps some have forgotten, also, that God sent us the Christ who gave us His Church to teach such truths infallibly, and how to live them, and left the final reckoning to the particular judgment at death.

This thread has certainly enabled vital aspects of the moral teaching of Christ and His Church to be revealed, although some still try “to spin top in mud.”

 

[Warrior1979]

The fact that God killed Onan for practising contraception (withdrawal), a grave sin, is important enough to be used as an example by the Saints and Popes.

Sure…that’s obvious. But that doesn’t mean all other lessons learned from it get tossed out the window. It also doesn’t mean that it is the primary issue in the story.

That God seldom practises such earthly intervention for that, or any other, grave sin is so blatantly obvious that the question “so why isn’t everyone that commits this act slain by God?” is moronic.

I’m simply asking the blatantly obvious question. If I’m looking a a red wall, and someone comes by and says it’s blue, I’m going to ask why they believe it. You’re taking that position that it is moronic to ask such an obvious question.

The question is relevant. The reason it is relevant is that it can lead to a greater understanding of what actually took place.

The key is assent to dogma and doctrine, with the obedience of faith as St Paul emphasises (Rom 1:5; 16.26) and, as St Escriva advises so well, to be simple but not simpletons. In other words those who believe in nothing but their feelings will tend to fall for anything.

Those that believe only in what other tell them and do not think for themselves have assisted in massive destruction and evil throughout history.

 

[ahs]

Those that believe only in what other tell them and do not think for themselves have assisted in massive destruction and evil throughout history.

That’s why Christ gave us His Church to be our guide; to prevent us from falling for every belief that any person tells us…and to prevent us from trying to interpret the Scriptures ourselves, lest we mis-interpret and lead ourselves and others astray with our faulty interpretations/beliefs.

What the Church teaches is right, and if we proclaim the Church’s teachings while adhering to the Church’s teachings, then we are proclaiming the Truth. Everything else is what leads to evil and destruction.

2Peter 1:20 “But know this first of all, that no phophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.”

 

[Nate13]

Or it could be that Onan simply disobeyed God and was punished. If that’s the case, the story is straightforward and makes complete sense…no further speculation is necessary. Sometimes the simplest and most obvious explanation is the correct one.

haha yeah but why did poor Onan draw the short stick? Lots of other people in the bible disobeyed God and got a rap on the wrist at worst. If your position is that God in the Old Testament killed people who disobeyed him, I’m prepared to hear you prove this or for you to argue that God is not just and for some reason singled Onan out. You also choose to read this passage with a Western perspective instead of the perspective of the time and choose to ignore everything else in the bible that shows the perspective people had of children at that time.

 

[Nate13]

Those that believe only in what other tell them and do not think for themselves have assisted in massive destruction and evil throughout history.

Absolutely correct and may I ask you who is the pillar and bulwark of truth?
1 Tim 3:15

I believe it is wrong to say that we should not think for ourselves though. I don’t just assume the Church is right and I believe most people would agree with that sentiment. We go in search of the Church’s explanation and keep searching until our intellects are satisfied. It is our responsibility as Catholics to make sure we know why we believe what we believe so that we can defend the faith and not be led astray when someone challenges us because we don’t know why we believe what we believe.

 

[wish2bsaint]

Please define what the Church means by unitive. I used to think that anything goes in marriage, but recently, I’ve been enlighted to the fact that oral sex is evil. However, my husband thinks that I can show love to him, thereby be unitive, by participating in oral sex.
He says that he is very hurt by the fact that I no longer wish to participate in this act.

 

[ahs]

Please define what the Church means by unitive. I used to think that anything goes in marriage, but recently, I’ve been enlighted to the fact that oral sex is evil. However, my husband thinks that I can show love to him, thereby be unitive, by participating in oral sex.
He says that he is very hurt by the fact that I no longer wish to participate in this act.

The marital act must end in the man’s semen being naturally ejaculated into the proper female organ. You can provide oral stimulation to your husband, but he cannot place his seed outside the vagina…the oral sex must lead to completion of the act within the woman. Otherwise, the act was performed contrary to nature (God’s Natural Law).

I didn’t describe “unitive” for you…but I think I covered what you were asking…if you need more info on the actual “unitive” and “procreative”, please feel free to repost.

 

[ahs]

@wish2bsaint:

Also, look here at Humanae Vitae: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

Paragrpah 11 in “Observing the Natural Law” will probably better answer you, as will the whole document when you have time to read it.

God Bless!!

 

[Chrono13]

The certainty of the infallibility of the doctrine against contraception in Casti Connubii and in Humanae Vitae comes from the dogma in Vatican I (post #1150), reaffirmed by Vatican II (Lumen Gentium, 25):
“The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful – who confirms his brethren in the faith (cf. Lk 22:32) – he proclaims in an absolute decision a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.”

How many pontifical decisions during history have such nature, but are not in effect anymore?

And how can decision be final if certain systems of doctrine, such as teaching regard in the past, are problematic?

Pope could have said “ban of nfp was incorrect, it’s ok”. But too much stress was made on the contrary, and it seems we are now to believe as if stoicism never existed or that massive sacrifices done by layman in order to hold the teaching were also non-existant.

 

[Warrior1979]

haha yeah but why did poor Onan draw the short stick? Lots of other people in the bible disobeyed God and got a rap on the wrist at worst. If your position is that God in the Old Testament killed people who disobeyed him, I’m prepared to hear you prove this or for you to argue that God is not just and for some reason singled Onan out.

I’m not out to prove it one way or the other. I simply look at the story and try to interpret it’s meaning. There can be several conclusions:

1. 
   *]God slew Onan for using an immoral natural means to avoid offspring (which some are referring to as contraception). If this interpretation is correct, it means that God may mete out justice at any time and any way he sees fit…which in this case appears to be once in the history of man.
   *]God gave Onan an order and Onan disobeyed, thus he slew him. In this case, the means to disobey God is irrelevant. The is because any means used to disobey God is objectively immoral.
   
   What’s the answer? Who knows, but Case #2 is more logically consistent. Case #1 can creates problems from man’s perspective, since what God and man are bound by are different (I’ll leave it at that to avoid derailing the thread).