NFP and Just Reason

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No, you did NOT use NFP for contraceptive purposes…you used contraception and did not stick with NFP. NFP does not involve the actions you described taking.

No. When we practiced NFP WITHOUT doing the other things we still used them for contraceptive purposes. We used it poorly. You could argue that when we pulled out or did oral things then we were using a form of contraception. But we did not always do that.

Honestly we are talking about semantics and you should be able to separate the idea that NFP can be abused with the idea that it is not good at all. One is very different than another.
And barring any extra circumstances, NFP is most commonly abused because WE desire to control this process that God created. It is about power, control, and authority. And because of the societal views by the majority of a “contraceptive mentality” NFP suffers. Especially for those of us who had to transition from ABC to NFP. It is a long process and NFP is not meant to be used as many use it.

 

[ahs]

No, you are wrong. It was NFP’s fault. It was not until we stopped using NFP selfishly and anti life that we realized the poisons that you describe…

So, NFP, which is the gathering of information [and for the sake of argument, employing that information to abstain during the fertile period], made you sin? You said, “*And it has led to a “breaking of the rules” with regards to what is permissible. ( I know this is graphic but I think it is enough of an elephant in the room that we can bring it up.) But sometimes we might not “finish” correctly or even have intercourse at all. This not only leads to a sin that needs to be confessed but even leads to further resentment in the marriage. *”

It’s not the person who is responsible for his/her actions, it’s the fault of some tool that he/she chooses to employ. Is that what you are saying?

But with NFP you have to confront the issue every time. So, if you are using sex in a different way than intended NFP makes you confront that.

Exactly. Hence the fact that it is self-limiting for all practicality.

I have always been open to life. My wife was not. Getting her off ABC was a lengthy process that was frustrating to all involved. Then, that time after depo, and waiting for her cycle to start was the most confusing time in our lives.

How is that not a just reason to abstain during the fertile period?

A woman’s cycle and hormones are so messed up coming off that that it is almost impossible to do anything but the most conservative rules in any method of NFP.

Yes, that is right. But unless you are trying to blame NFP for your wife’s hormones and cycles, I don’t see how this fits into making your point?

Then we used Ladycomp and our sex was dictated to us by a computer. Green light days and red light days. This whole time, I am trying to sell my wife on NFP, on letting go of the control all the while NFP is touting how it is even MORE effective at avoiding pregnancies than ABC. So I am trying get her to be more open to life while selling something to her that is saying it is actually better at not bringing life to bear. Our first THREE babies were NFP babies. Not that NFP failed us but they were not “planned” by us. The 4th we used NFP to try to conceive.

Yep, your describing the experience of many couples. Again, though, how is NFP responsible for your choice to commit sin? Isn’t sin something that PEOPLE are responsible for choosing? Or is NFP going to be the next scapegoat as people try to find things to blame their choices on?

In our lives we have had “Just” reasons to avoid. We had a special needs child, stressful finances and job and after one of the pregnancies my wife had PPD pretty bad. All of those are things we used NFP for. We no longer have “Just” reasons to avoid so NFP is followed rather loosely if at all.

Okay, so you either follow NFP and decide each cycle whether you have a just reason to avoid [and decide accordingly], or you commit a sin, which is NOT part of NFP [if you are still doing the things you described earlier]. They are not both the same thing, and one does not cause the other.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

So, NFP, which is the gathering of information [and for the sake of argument, employing that information to abstain during the fertile period], made you sin? You said, “*And it has led to a “breaking of the rules” with regards to what is permissible. ( I know this is graphic but I think it is enough of an elephant in the room that we can bring it up.) But sometimes we might not “finish” correctly or even have intercourse at all. This not only leads to a sin that needs to be confessed but even leads to further resentment in the marriage. *”

It’s not the person who is responsible for his/her actions, it’s the fault of some tool that he/she chooses to employ. Is that what you are saying?

Exactly. Hence the fact that it is self-limiting for all practicality.

How is that not a just reason to abstain during the fertile period?

Yes, that is right. But unless you are trying to blame NFP for your wife’s hormones and cycles, I don’t see how this fits into making your point?

Yep, your describing the experience of many couples. Again, though, how is NFP responsible for your choice to commit sin? Isn’t sin something that PEOPLE are responsible for choosing? Or is NFP going to be the next scapegoat as people try to find things to blame their choices on?

Okay, so you either follow NFP and decide each cycle whether you have a just reason to avoid [and decide accordingly], or you commit a sin, which is NOT part of NFP [if you are still doing the things you described earlier]. They are not both the same thing, and one does not cause the other.

You are reading way too much into things. We used NFP without Just reasons. You are not my conscience. You cannot tell me if we did or if we did not. In your desire to defend it you are being illogical.
It is ok. You can accept that some abuse it while still not condemning it. It will be ok. It will not be a house of cards if you concede that one little thing instead of trying to disect a marriage and conscience you have no insight to.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

How is that not a just reason to abstain during the fertile period?
.

See here I have a problem. I am going to assume that you are one of those people who freak out whenever anyone questions if someone else has Just reasons. You probably jump all over the opportunity to tell the other person that it is not their place. That it is between a couple and God. Well, buddy, that goes BOTH ways. You cannot make that argument and then judge out decision that we did not have sufficient reason to avoid. That our mentality was sinful. You cannot tell another person that they DO or DONT have just reasons. Becasue you see, my conscience is well formed, but the Church, by education of NFP and the Church’s view on sex, and on my own sins. And so if I tell you that what we did, and the mentality we had was anti life, sinful, and selfish. And at times we used NFP to further those vices. You are in no position to judge, forgive, or decide that I did not sin, or act in a manner contrary to CHurch teaching.

Because we did.

We had no reasons to avoid at that time.

Your logic would say that a “Just” church approved reason is that you are not open to life.

It is ok for us to avoid because we do not conform to the Church. Hence we conform to the Church by avoiding because we do not conform to the Church.

 

[ahs]

No. When we practiced NFP WITHOUT doing the other things we still used them for contraceptive purposes. We used it poorly. You could argue that when we pulled out or did oral things then we were using a form of contraception. But we did not always do that.

Sure…but those things are NOT part of NFP, and doing those is not ‘using NFP poorly’…they are using the sexual faculty improperly.

Honestly we are talking about semantics and you should be able to separate the idea that NFP can be abused with the idea that it is not good at all. One is very different than another.

In theory I agree, but in practice, no. You have not described NFP being abused, you have described contraception and masturbation…neither of which are part of NFP.

And barring any extra circumstances, NFP is most commonly abused because WE desire to control this process that God created. It is about power, control, and authority.

I disagree. But to tag onto this anyway, who is it that has the responsibility of deciding whether or not to regulate childbirth in a Marriage? [Hint, the Church has issued teaching on this at least twice and I provided it twice in the first 4 posts of my thread about “The Catholic Answer to “The Scandal of NFP””.]

And because of the societal views by the majority of a “contraceptive mentality” NFP suffers. Especially for those of us who had to transition from ABC to NFP. It is a long process and NFP is not meant to be used as many use it.

I’m not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that with NFP the procreative nature of an act can be removed from that act?

 

[ahs]

See here I have a problem. I am going to assume that you are one of those people who freak out whenever anyone questions if someone else has Just reasons. You probably jump all over the opportunity to tell the other person that it is not their place. That it is between a couple and God. Well, buddy, that goes BOTH ways. You cannot make that argument and then judge out decision that we did not have sufficient reason to avoid. That our mentality was sinful. You cannot tell another person that they DO or DONT have just reasons. Becasue you see, my conscience is well formed, but the Church, by education of NFP and the Church’s view on sex, and on my own sins. And so if I tell you that what we did, and the mentality we had was anti life, sinful, and selfish. And at times we used NFP to further those vices. You are in no position to judge, forgive, or decide that I did not sin, or act in a manner contrary to CHurch teaching.

Because we did.

We had no reasons to avoid at that time.

Sure, I see your point. So, you had no just reason to avoid, and instead of using NFP and engaging in the act during the fertile period, you instead committed the sins you described. Is that what you are saying? Or did you go ahead and follow the NFP rules and engage in the act in the natural manner during the fertile period since you had no just reason to avoid?

 

[ahs]

You are reading way too much into things. We used NFP without Just reasons. You are not my conscience. You cannot tell me if we did or if we did not. In your desire to defend it you are being illogical.
It is ok. You can accept that some abuse it while still not condemning it. It will be ok. It will not be a house of cards if you concede that one little thing instead of trying to disect a marriage and conscience you have no insight to.

I guess we have a different understanding of NFP. Can you please give me the name of the NFP program that allows for the pulling out or oral activities you talked about committing as part of the NFP program? Maybe then I can look into it and see how NFP was at fault there.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Sure, I see your point. So, you had no just reason to avoid, and instead of using NFP and engaging in the act during the fertile period, you instead committed the sins you described. Is that what you are saying? Or did you go ahead and follow the NFP rules and engage in the act in the natural manner during the fertile period since you had no just reason to avoid?

Both. This is not one event we are talking about. Sometimes we used NFP sometimes we cheated.

Sometimes we did as I said and you have obviously focused on. Sometimes we just used NFP to avoid for frivolous (unjust) reasons.
Like I said, it was an evolution. (most things are) of our consciences and spirits. We started ABC anti life. We moved to NFP imperfect practice anti life and then onto NFP following the rules, anti life. And then to NFP pro life and finally just dropped the NFP.

I find it hard to understand how it is hard for you to understand this. These are common struggles with NFP in my experience. When applying NFP to real world situations instead of PR packaging of the companies and classes, these are common to couples we have known.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I guess we have a different understanding of NFP. Can you please give me the name of the NFP program that allows for the pulling out or oral activities you talked about committing as part of the NFP program? Maybe then I can look into it and see how NFP was at fault there.

None. But you are focusing on the wrong point again. The point is not what NFP allows for but how it is implemented. That is like saying condoms don’t let you down, you just put them on wrong…

 

[ahs]

Both. This is not one event we are talking about. Sometimes we used NFP sometimes we cheated.

Sometimes we did as I said and you have obviously focused on. Sometimes we just used NFP to avoid for frivolous (unjust) reasons.
Like I said, it was an evolution. (most things are) of our consciences and spirits. We started ABC anti life. We moved to NFP imperfect practice anti life and then onto NFP following the rules, anti life. And then to NFP pro life and finally just dropped the NFP.

I find it hard to understand how it is hard for you to understand this. These are common struggles with NFP in my experience. When applying NFP to real world situations instead of PR packaging of the companies and classes, these are common to couples we have known.

None. But you are focusing on the wrong point again. The point is not what NFP allows for but how it is implemented. That is like saying condoms don’t let you down, you just put them on wrong…

I get the whole PR bit with NFP and how it’s mis-advertised. What I don’t get is how you are trying to say NFP made you do some thing that isn’t NFP. How NFP is implemented has absolutely nothing to do with contraception. You are trying to link your mis-use of the sexual faculty with NFP…and it makes no sense.

If you were using NFP, then you either abstained from a marital act, or you engaged in one in the natural manner…period. If you contracepted or mis-used the sexual faculty in another manner…that wasn’t NFP, and NFP was not responsible for that…you were.

It sounds to me like you are trying to shuck off responsibility for your actions and use NFP as a scapegoat. That’s what I am reading in your words, such as:

"And it has led to a “breaking of the rules” with regards to what is permissible. ( I know this is graphic but I think it is enough of an elephant in the room that we can bring it up.) But sometimes we might not “finish” correctly or even have intercourse at all. This not only leads to a sin that needs to be confessed but even leads to further resentment in the marriage. "

and

“It was NFP’s fault.”

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I get the whole PR bit with NFP and how it’s mis-advertised. What I don’t get is how you are trying to say NFP made you do some thing that isn’t NFP. How NFP is implemented has absolutely nothing to do with contraception. You are trying to link your mis-use of the sexual faculty with NFP…and it makes no sense.

If you were using NFP, then you either abstained from a marital act, or you engaged in one in the natural manner…period. If you contracepted or mis-used the sexual faculty in another manner…that wasn’t NFP, and NFP was not responsible for that…you were.

It sounds to me like you are trying to shuck off responsibility for your actions and use NFP as a scapegoat. That’s what I am reading in your words, such as:

"And it has led to a “breaking of the rules” with regards to what is permissible. ( I know this is graphic but I think it is enough of an elephant in the room that we can bring it up.) But sometimes we might not “finish” correctly or even have intercourse at all. This not only leads to a sin that needs to be confessed but even leads to further resentment in the marriage. "

and

“It was NFP’s fault.”

I don’t know why you must harp on this. Sure, NFP did not “Make” us do something. But it was sold to us as something different and when we used it as we were told to by it’s advertising it failed to deliver it’s promises.

Now I know that our outlook was disordered and that is why NFP “failed” us. And I know that NFP WHEN USED CORRECTLY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CHURCH, is beneficial and holy. But this absurd idea that everyone who uses NFP is following God’s will and the Church’s intent is false.

Just look at your defense. Getting you to even admit that NFP can be abused or that there can be “unjust” reasons for using it is like puling teeth. And in choosing that hill to die on NFP proponents lose the bigger war. The one where we all agree about life affirming choices and purposes for marriage. And orienting ourselves toward our Holy purpose on earth.

As long as we peddle NFP as a panacea and as a “Birth control” it will fail.

Your main point I think is that NFP in it’s perfect practice and form is neither good nor evil but rather a legitimate vehicle that we can use in our lives as Catholics. Which is true. But NFP is not used in a vaccum. It is not practiced perfectly by every couple.

Until we figure out how to change the focus of the conversation to life and pro family issues NFP will continue to be the minority in choice for Catholics or anyone and ABC will continue to be the majority. IF NFP proponents refuse to engage or even admit the potential problems with it and it’s implementation then they will continue to fight the windmills of the issue.

There must be unjust reasons to use it because the Church makes a specification.

 

[Rau]

Your main point ahs]I think is that NFP in it’s perfect practice and form is neither good nor evil but rather a legitimate vehicle that we can use in our lives as Catholics. Which is true. But NFP is not used in a vaccum. It is not practiced perfectly by every couple.

Until we figure out how to change the focus of the conversation to life and pro family issues NFP will continue to be the minority in choice for Catholics or anyone and ABC will continue to be the majority. IF NFP proponents refuse to engage or even admit the potential problems with it and it’s implementation then they will continue to fight the windmills of the issue.

There must be unjust reasons to use it because the Church makes a specification.

Hoosier Daddy – This is what I hear in reading your posts. This may also shed light on the question **ahs **asks about “how NFP could make you sin”.

1. NFP carries a Church imprimatur as a means of regulating births, and is “marketed” as the licit alternative to ABC, and with little focus on the idea of “Just Reasons”.
2. Consequently, it will attract (Catholic) couples who are disinclined to have more children, and reinforce in their mind that it is OK to regulate births (arbitrarily) so long as NFP is the method. The issue of Just Reasons gets forgotten.
3. NFP is hard (harder than ABC), because abstinence is hard.
4. Because it is hard, couples using NFP may fail to abstain when they “should”, but given they still wish to avoid pregnancy, they may do the wrong thing (masturbate, withdrawal , etc.)
5. You “blame” NFP for this outcome, because it has seduced people to use it without them properly resolving the Just Reasons issue. Now, if they had properly resolved the Just Reasons question, then they would arrive at one of the following conclusion:
   a. Realise they have no Just Reason, and go ahead with licit intercourse freely;
   b. Identify their Just Reason
6. You believe that 5(a) will be the more usual outcome of an honest discernment
7. When you have worked hard to resolve the Just Reasons issue, you arrive at 5(a). *Hence, you need not adopt NFP and are much less tempted to fall into the sin scenario. *

Please say if this does / does not reflect your thinking.

While I can see the perspective that leads you to blame NFP for the temptation to sin, this is a bit of a self-evident observation to my mind – if you choose not to use NFP (ie. not to abstain), then of course the temptation to sin is much reduced – because you have all the opportunity in the world to fulfil conjugal drives in the licit way.

There are two other scenarios, or groups of (morally well intentioned) NFP users, viz:

• Those discerning they do have Just Reasons. These folks may fail in their commitment to NFP also, but due to their acute awareness (and higher threshold?) of Just Reasons - failure may tend to involve sin in order to remove the procreative ‘risk’;
• Those who never thought too hard about Just Reasons (some might call this those having a “contraceptive mentality”). These folks practicing NFP may fail in their commitment to NFP also, but, other things being equal, may have a greater chance of having an *“Oh, what the heck” *baby (due to a less acute awareness of *Reasons *to avoid).

Your last sentence rings like an unanswered bell. And one wonders how the world would have evolved had all people conducted their sexual relations by the principles you’ve discerned for your family.