NFP and Marital Debt

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CuriousInIL

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The following post from the thread Marital Debt,
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=87416
was, I thought, deserving of its own thread. So here it is,
Penny Plain:
For those of you who are taking the position that the spouse has the duty to satisfy the marital debt (or whatever phrase you wish to use; I prefer “make whoopie” because it’s more dignified), how does that match up with the Church’s teaching on contraception?

We’re not to use it. We can use NFP to manage things or play the odds, but the essence of NFP is that during some parts of the month you can whoopify, and others you can’t. Doesn’t this rule of compulsory whoopification mean that one partner can, in essence, overrule the other’s decision to use NFP?

Just curious how the two match up.
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My answer would be that use of NFP and finding oneself in the wrong time of the cycle for appropriate relations (be that because a couple is trying to get pregnant or not) would be reasonable rationale to refuse.
 
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CuriousInIL:
The following post from the thread Marital Debt,
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=87416
was, I thought, deserving of its own thread. So here it is,

My answer would be that use of NFP and finding oneself in the wrong time of the cycle for appropriate relations (be that because a couple is trying to get pregnant or not) would be reasonable rationale to refuse.
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The essence of NFP… abstaining.
NFP is one of many techniques used in a marriage to assist a couple in abstaining during fertile periods. Any abstaining in a marriage… (with help from NFP or other)… needs to be done with mutual agreement. If both spouses are in mutual agreement… no “request” should be made. However, if a “request” is made, it is a duty of both spouses to be prudent and discuss whether or not the decision to abstain should be rescinded.

btw… a request is not a verbal command… most times it comes in the form of an action… sometimes it is a verbal question.
 
Either spouse can rescind NFP at any time. When it stops being the will of both it becomes a sin of the one refusing. NFP is a mutual agreement, affirmed or unaffirmed continously, daily.

The words of St. Paul are good to reflect on (1 Corinthians 7). Perhaps he did not envision NFP in his time, but the point is well meant. If you feel the need you should probably not fight it. The rest of the chapter (7) says a lot about the fact that many people probably would do well to not marry. How many are cut out for really living a life of giving?

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A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife.
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Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.
 
Well I dont see any discrepancy because the Church does not teach that a spouse is obligated to have sex each and every time the other spouse requests it.

Also because the use of NFP should be a decision that is agreed upon by both spouses. If one agrees to abstain during certain parts of the month then it becomes unreasonable for them to later demand sex during that time.
 
I think the biggests problems people are running into have to do with communication and the fact that people flat out don’t like the idead of having to do something they might not want to do. People speak of freedom of choice, well, this is true, but, you CHOOSE to get married. If people can’t prepare themselves for marriage by reading about what is required of them, they have no business getting married in the Catholic Church.
 
Maybe this is the issue that people may be having trouble with:

Let us say a spouse doesn’t feel like it, and unwillingly submits to the other. This does not fulfill the “marriage debt.” Fulfilling the marriage debt is not about making a command… or obeying a command… it is about having the willingness to give your body to your spouse.

If a spouse does not “feel like it”, and just “gives in” to get it over with… this is sinful. However, a spouse can willingly submit… even though initially they do not feel like it… without problem.
 
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frogman80:
Err… sorry… Try this one:

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1001

(I copy and pasted from another thread… the forum software shortened the link, and made it invalid!)
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that is a pretty long article…i dont have the time to read it now, maybe later…is there a specific part of it that i could zero in on or something. I am curious to see where i went wrong.
 
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martino:
that is a pretty long article…i dont have the time to read it now, maybe later…is there a specific part of it that i could zero in on or something. I am curious to see where i went wrong.
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I think the article needs to be read in its entirety… there are many ways someone could mis-understand a Catholic definition of marriage. This article ties a lot of things together. That said… you could do a quick scroll down to part (2). (Please go back and read part 1… Part 2 is easy to misinterpret without part 1)
 
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martino:
Well I dont see any discrepancy since the use of NFP should be a decision that is agreed upon by both spouses. If one agrees to abstain during certain parts of the month and having serious reason to avoid pregnancy, then it becomes unreasonable for them to later demand sex during that time.
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Frogman…i have ammended my statement, how does it look now?
 
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martino:
Well I dont see any discrepancy since the use of NFP should be a decision that is agreed upon by both spouses. If one agrees to abstain during certain parts of the month and having serious reason to avoid pregnancy, then it becomes unreasonable for them to later demand sex during that time.

Frogman…i have ammended my statement, how does it look now?
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Again, hypotheticals are difficult… this can be right and wrong depending on the individual situation. I do not think there is a one size fits all answer.

It is only unreasonable if the intention is unreasonable. If a couple decided to abstain for some serious reason… and during that period of 5-7 days, one spouse made a request… it would be prudent for communication to entail. The communication would be whether or not the serious reason for abstaining still existed… and wheatear or not the request was serious enough to be continued.

The couple will need to have a meeting of the will… but IMHO obligation to submit to a “request” will outweigh the decision to abstain. Why? It shows that there may not have been a truly serious situation for abstaining if one spouse has so quickly changed their mind. It at least shows the requesting spouse does not see pregnancy as a problem, or source of trouble.

(Abusive relationships, or drunken request are a different issue… my opinion and examples envision a loving God centered relationship.)
 
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frogman80:
The couple will need to have a meeting of the will… but IMHO obligation to submit to a “request” will outweigh the decision to abstain. Why? It shows that there may not have been a truly serious situation for abstaining if one spouse has so quickly changed their mind. It at least shows the requesting spouse does not see pregnancy as a problem, or source of trouble.
)
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Or it may be that one spouse has not checked the chart recently. As someone that should not get pregnant, one word to my hubby about checking my chart, changes the request. We normally get a board game out. :rolleyes:
 
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frogman80:
Again, hypotheticals are difficult… this can be right and wrong depending on the individual situation. I do not think there is a one size fits all answer.

It is only unreasonable if the intention is unreasonable. If a couple decided to abstain for some serious reason… and during that period of 5-7 days, one spouse made a request… it would be prudent for communication to entail. The communication would be whether or not the serious reason for abstaining still existed… and wheatear or not the request was serious enough to be continued.

The couple will need to have a meeting of the will… but IMHO obligation to submit to a “request” will outweigh the decision to abstain. Why? It shows that there may not have been a truly serious situation for abstaining if one spouse has so quickly changed their mind. It at least shows the requesting spouse does not see pregnancy as a problem, or source of trouble.

(Abusive relationships, or drunken request are a different issue… my opinion and examples envision a loving God centered relationship.)
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I understand your point but I was assuming that the couple really did have serious reasons for abstaining. If they didnt have serious reasons then not only is the “request” perfectly reasonable but they should not have been practicing NFP in the first place.

So I am still saying that IF a couple has serious reasons to practice NFP and IF they both agree to the conditions of NFP, then it would be unreasonalbe as well as irresponsible for one of the spouses to make such a request during the period they should be abstaining.
 
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martino:
I understand your point but I was assuming that the couple really did have serious reasons for abstaining. If they didnt have serious reasons then not only is the “request” perfectly reasonable but they should not have been practicing NFP in the first place.

So I am still saying that IF a couple has serious reasons to practice NFP and IF they both agree to the conditions of NFP, then it would be unreasonalbe as well as irresponsible for one of the spouses to make such a request during the period they should be abstaining.
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You are presenting a hypothetical situation. It is a slightly flawed hypothetical. If a couple has a serious reason for abstaining to prevent pregnancy… there will be no requests. If there are request… it means someone has forgotten (see maryjk’s post) or no serious reason for abstaining… (That both spouses agree on…) exists.

Look at maryjk’s post… they decided to abstain… husband asks… they discuss… and decide to continue abstaining. Just because you can think of a worse case scenario… does not mean that scenario exists. 😃
 
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frogman80:
You are presenting a hypothetical situation. It is a slightly flawed hypothetical. If a couple has a serious reason for abstaining to prevent pregnancy… there will be no requests. If there are request… it means someone has forgotten (see maryjk’s post) or no serious reason for abstaining… (That both spouses agree on…) exists.

Look at maryjk’s post… they decided to abstain… husband asks… they discuss… and decide to continue abstaining. Just because you can think of a worse case scenario… does not mean that scenario exists. 😃
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Yes my scenario is hypothetical, but it is not at all far fetched. People make decisions to abstain from sex to avoid pregnancy all the time; it is also true that just because they have made that decsion it doesnt mean they will no longer feel a desire for sex during those time. You gave a real scenario that seemed to be the same as the one i was describing. I did not read maryjk’s post but the way you described it we could all conclude that her husband made an unreasonable request; exactly as i concluded in my hypothetical. The fact that they discussed it and decided against it seems to prove that it was unreasonable, or at least irresponsible.

Just because someone intellectually knows that they have serious reasons to practice NFP doesnt automatically mean that they will not make an attempt to circumvent the method when they feel a strong desire. Most people have not completely mastered their passions and one or both spouses will most likely find that at certain times NFP is difficult to practice…in fact a request may very well be made. The existence of a request does not mean that their reasons for avoiding pregnancy were originally lacking. We can see this from maryjk’s post (sorry to keep using you as an example mary!🙂 ). There was a request for sex yet the need to abstain prevailed.

I am not trying to be argumentative but your example seems to prove my point.
 
Sometimes guys hormones get the better of them or the need to be close to their wives. Just because he asks doesn’t mean he’s going to get it, but it would probably lead to a good discussion about why he is feeling that way and would probably enrichen the marriage. Guys sometimes need remindin (just like women) how special something is and sometimes the only way that happens is when they can’t have it (for a good reason 🙂 )
 
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frogman80:
Look at maryjk’s post… they decided to abstain… husband asks… they discuss… and decide to continue abstaining. Just because you can think of a worse case scenario… does not mean that scenario exists. 😃
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bahaha! Husband asks? Husband WANTS (not that there’s anything bad about that), this is the most important factor apparently. You’ve come up with a roundabout way to say that, if the man wants to, a good catholic wife is morally obligated to oblige him. All a bit distasteful.
 
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cynic:
bahaha! Husband asks? Husband WANTS (not that there’s anything bad about that), this is the most important factor apparently. You’ve come up with a roundabout way to say that, if the man wants to, a good catholic wife is morally obligated to oblige him. All a bit distasteful.
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Umm… read maryjk’s post:
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maryjk:
Or it may be that one spouse has not checked the chart recently. As someone that should not get pregnant, one word to my hubby about checking my chart, changes the request. We normally get a board game out.
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It is not just about the husband… it goes both ways. Women can and do make request also.
 
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