NFP and people getting state aid

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There are several issues that must be considered. First and foremost is “state” aid. I personally don’t believe people have an inalienable right to receive aid, and certainly our Founding Fathers would have found that flat-out offensive. The state governs everyone, and it is unreasonable to think that the government is going to give out aid on the basis of a particular belief by a religious group.

I also believe that state aid can encourage irresponsible behavior. If one can act irresponsibly and the state will simply bail them out, what is to stop them from doing the same in the future?..Nothing.

IMHO, if there is aid, it should come from charity, notable the religious organization they belong to.
 
LaSainte said:
Theoretically, the government could either force compliance for families who want their help or the family can give up custody of the kids. Why should such irresponsible breeding be rewarded and why should I have to pay for it for a family who has no intention of stopping? I go further into debt every month to try and support my family, and it’s hard, but I’m not aboutto have 6 more, say “oops sorry, it’s my religion” and force someone else to pay for them. If the Church is so concerned about people not practicing ABC under any circumstances, hen by all means, let them reach out and take care of the families who are trying to be faithful.
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LaSainte, in real life (off this forum) I don’t even know one single person using NFP anyway. Everyone I know is on ABCs to begin with. So what about those who use ABCs but end up getting pregnant anyway?
 
1ke said:
You are misinformed.

And, since you refuse to read the resource on responsible parenthood found in Humanae Vitae (and other Church documents) I suppose you will remain in ignorance and continue to make outlandish and untrue statements such as the one above.
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Believe me, I have read the section to which you are referring. Any normal, non-catholic with 8 kids on welfare would probably have been sterilized by this point. If they don’t want to be because of their religious affiliation, fine. But I shouldn’t have to subsidize their choices any more than I should have to pay for Joe Mormon and his 5 wives and 16 kids to live. If they war to live their loves and plan their families according to the Catholic Church’s guidelines and they end up with more kids than they can afford, then let them get money from a Catholic charity or from their local parish, not the government, a.k.a. other hard-working people who DON’T have mass amounts of kids they can’t afford. why should I be forced to subsidize someone’s irresponsibility?
 
Rence said:
LaSainte, in real life (off this forum) I don’t even know one single person using NFP anyway. Everyone I know is on ABCs to begin with. So what about those who use ABCs but end up getting pregnant anyway?
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Well, this is pretty rare. As much as people say it happens all the time, I really would be surprised if someone was on the pill and had 4 unplanned pregnancies, whereas I have heard MANY people on this forum say that they have had more than one or two kids while trying their best to use NFP. As much as people say that NFP is so effective, it just doesn’t work for some.

The government certainly can’t police everyone, but I think hat requiring someone to at least BE on some form of birth control before they get that check would be a start. If an accident happens, I guess not much can be done, but hen again, I’m not a fan of the welfare system anyway. At least then you wouldn’t have people TRYING to have kids in order to get money. It’s a handout, so I see no problem with setting up some prety strict ground rules for it if it has to exist at all.
 
I believe that people should use NFP if they have all the children they can afford.if by chance they do conceive and need help they should seek out ways to get help.THeir are many ways one can get help if they really try.Most people would help (I truelly believe this)if they new that a family was in real need.The couple has no other option than to use NFP unless they decide to abstain.However I don’t believe that realistic.
 
LaSainte said:
Nobody’s forcing anybody to do anything. If they want to keep having kids because of some religious obligation, then the rest of us should not be forced to subsidize it. Let the Church take care of these people since it’s their rule that has them procreating like crazy anyway. I know it sounds harsh, but why should I be legally responsible for someone else’s poor life choices? Take it up with charity where it belongs.
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I’m going to agree with you in part. I think charity should be the option available, not government mandated care with ALL people. IOW I don’t think Welfare, WIC, foodstamps, etc should be the norm. The government should not be our nanny.

However, I take umbrage to you thinking its a religious obligation to have more children than someone can afford. That is a distortion of Catholic teaching. The Church references responsible parenthood. IOW the Church encourages couples to reflect on their financial means, emotional means, and spiritual means before conceiving more children. Yes, the Church requires the faithful to be open to life, but does NOT insist on the couple constantly intending to produce more children. There is a BIG difference.

I also think some later comments on how ABC doesn’t fail that often are laughable. Have you ever watched the show “I didn’t know I was pregnant”? If so, you should know how often ABC fails… If you go off of the common statistics presented for every 100 acts of intercourse using hormonal ABC at least 2 will result in pregnancy. That’s 98% effective. To extrapolate, if 1 million couples are using ABC about 20,000 pregnancies will result. Most people look at the statistics & think they only refer to 2 women out of 100 getting pregnant for the whole of their lives. However, each & every act of intercourse is a new chance for ABC (or NFP) to fail (although with NFP its not typically considered failure because of the openness to new life) in a purely statistical view. Another way to put it is if a couple is on ABC for every 100 acts of intercourse they have, they risk at least 2 pregnancies. BTW the 98% statistic is for “perfect” use, the actual real-world statistic is closer to 85% for “actual” use.

I personally know a fairly wide variety of people using the various methods: ABC, NFP, & nothing. Each method has “failed” at least once. Actually, the couple that has been the most consistent (at preventing pregnancy) uses NO method of family planning, but only has 2 children and both parents are of normal fertility. I know quite a few people on ABC that have conceived “accidentally” whether through break-thru ovulation, condom failure, etc. The couples I know on NFP that have conceived “accidentally” were typically waffling on their self-imposed pregnancy avoidance. M DH & I were one of that type of NFP users. We weren’t intentionally getting pregnant (like planning & trying), but weknew the chances & proceeded anyway. I don’t consider that a failure of NFP so much as our decision-making failure…
 
@warrior

“aid . . . should come from charity”

I am not saying this to be snarky, but how, in your opinion, has that worked out historically? Has private charity been as effective a safety net, if you will, as compared to government sponsored programs? Was there a time in pre-industrial society where the private aid institutions effectively, or as effectively as a modern state does, ameliorated the hardships folks face?

Certainly there is a spectrum of governmental involvement, and I think generally most folks would want the least intrusive government that accomplishes the goal - - and that is where the debate is, i.e., what is too intrusive, and what is the goal. We could also have an interesting discussion about how forced giving (taxes) does not build the virtue of charity and generosity, versus the damage that actual people suffer if there is no “forced charity”.
 
I know hat the Church doesn’t insist on a specific number of children, but it does say that one must be open to them to be married and that NFP is to be used only for serious reasons. There is a person on this very site who is pregnant (voluntarily) with their 4h or 5th child, who admits that their house is almost unlivable, and that just to sell it they would have to put 80000 dollars into it. How far off from being on welfare do you think this family might be?

Also, NFP is simply NOT as effective as ABC, no matter what they say. Perfect use is a LOT harder to achieve with NFP, and just about every time someone gets pregnant using it, someone pipes up and tells them they screwed it up. If it’s that easy to mess up, then sorry, but that doesn’t inspire much confidence.

I don’t know anyone personally for whom ABC has ever failed, and everyone I know has used it, including myself in he past for 10 years without a mistake, even on months where I missed several doses. When we decided to try for pregnancy, it happened in 3 months and then again while I was nursing the first, so no problem with a return of fertility either.

That said, if there was a way for these people to PROVE that they are using NFP in he strictest sense, then maybe that would be sufficient, but you can’t do that, so again, if hey are going to ge government aid, I think they should have to prove that they are taking something to prevent conception or that they are already sterile n

Like you said, I am not a fan of welfare to begin with, but if you’re going to be on it, there have to be rules.
 
By the way, I hate the pill because in can cause abortions, so I think it’s immoral. Ideally, these people would be sterilized completely. I in no way condone or suggest that ANYONE take the pill so long as there is a chance of abortion.
 
LaSainte said:
I know hat the Church doesn’t insist on a specific number of children, but it does say that one must be open to them to be married and that NFP is to be used only for serious reasons. There is a person on this very site who is pregnant (voluntarily) with their 4h or 5th child, who admits that their house is almost unlivable, and that just to sell it they would have to put 80000 dollars into it. How far off from being on welfare do you think this family might be?
Also, NFP is simply NOT as effective as ABC, no matter what they say. Perfect use is a LOT harder to achieve with NFP, and just about every time someone gets pregnant using it, someone pipes up and tells them they screwed it up. If it’s that easy to mess up, then sorry, but that doesn’t inspire much confidence.

I don’t know anyone personally for whom ABC has ever failed, and everyone I know has used it, including myself in he past for 10 years without a mistake, even on months where I missed several doses. When we decided to try for pregnancy, it happened in 3 months and then again while I was nursing the first, so no problem with a return of fertility either.

That said, if there was a way for these people to PROVE that they are using NFP in he strictest sense, then maybe that would be sufficient, but you can’t do that, so again, if hey are going to ge government aid, I think they should have to prove that they are taking something to prevent conception or that they are already sterile n

Like you said, I am not a fan of welfare to begin with, but if you’re going to be on it, there have to be rules.
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Your conjecture on another poster on CAF’s imminant need of welfare has to be one of the most uncharitable comments ever read.

It is none of your buisiness, how many children they have. I know exactly who you are refering to…and note both husband and wife are engineers.

You are an intelligent woman…why not research what the percentage of women receiving assistance are:
single mothers, divorced mothers, and married mothers.

Maybe you will notice that married mothers receive a smaller percentage of assistance than divorced and single mothers.

Maybe you can take issue with dead-beat dads not paying child support?

Instead of requiring practicing Catholics chosing between sterilization and receiving state aid.
 
I can’t believe all the eugenic, Margaret Sanger-like bigotry I am reading on this thread.

It is a **sad **comment on people’s morals when they look at children as burdens and all they can think about is “me and my” and keeping more for themselves.

UGH. It’s disgusting.
 
1ke said:
I can’t believe all the eugenic, Margaret Sanger-like bigotry I am reading on this thread.

It is a **sad **comment on people’s morals when they look at children as burdens and all they can think about is “me and my” and keeping more for themselves.

UGH. It’s disgusting.
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Get off your high horse. I gladly donate mobey to the needy throuh my CHURCH. for the government to FORCE people to subsidize enormous families, Joe Mormon’s 5 wives and 15 kids, and Joe Heroin’s methadone injections is beyond absurd. I should not be FORCED to pay because someone else made stupid choices or ruined their own lives. If you have 8 kids and you are on welfare and you are unwilling to be sterilized because of religion or any other reason, then for crying out loud STOP HAVING SEX or stop asking people who know how to keep it in their pants and plan heir families for money to raise YOUR kids.
 
LaSainte said:
I think that if they want to keep getting aid, the state should make them get sterilized or prove that they are on some form of birth control. It’s not the Catholic way, but that’s why we have separation of Church and state. If hey want to keep popping out babies, then they can appeal to a Catholic charity and see if they can get support that way.
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I am not sure if I 100% agree with them getting sterilized but yeah after a time something should be done.
 
It’s so disheartening to see people, made in the image and likeness of God, referred to as “breeding” and needing “sterilization”. It’s disgusting. These are people, not dogs.

It’s an entire mentality that loses sight of what is important in God’s eyes. Precious souls to be with him in Heaven. We (Americans especially) have a grossly distorted view of things, materialism is rampant and it blinds us to the Truth.

Government assistance is irrelevant-- it’s there, so yes people who qualify can access it. Don’t like that, then lobby to change the criteria or eliminate it.

This goes so much deeper, it is a distorted view of our fellow man, a making of them to be commodities, beans to be counted, productivity, economic burden, a balance sheet mentality.

I hope people will stop to think about how they are reducing the dignity of our fellow men by making such judgments and statements about them.

Our goal is to get to heaven and to help our fellow man get to heaven, and God also wants us to bring many souls into existence to be with him.

The poorest person in this country is richer than most of the rest of the world. Should poor people not have children? THAT is a repulsive mentality. And it is at odds with the Truth of Christ.
 
LaSainte said:
I think that if they want to keep getting aid, the state should make them get sterilized or prove that they are on some form of birth control. It’s not the Catholic way, but that’s why we have separation of Church and state. If hey want to keep popping out babies, then they can appeal to a Catholic charity and see if they can get support that way.
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First of all NFP ***is ***birth control – it just isn’t contraception. How exacty does one “prove” they are using any form of birth control anway?

So sad to see that there is still such a eugneic supporting legacy in this country. 😦 Make sure to sterilize those you deem as undesireable - which, for you, seems to be the poor, those with large families and Catholics.
 
The use of medicaid, WIC, and foodstamps is often generational. I am seeing proof of this where I work. I am sorry but it is disheartening for me to see these people come in for free handouts. Once they are pregnant the 3rd and 4th time, I can’t help but think that it is time to stop.
 
Corki said:
First of all NFP ***is ***birth control – it just isn’t contraception. How exacty does one “prove” they are using any form of birth control anway?

So sad to see that there is still such a eugneic supporting legacy in this country. 😦 Make sure to sterilize those you deem as undesireable - which, for you, seems to be the poor, those with large families and Catholics.
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A blood test would prove it. And I have no problem with the poor or Catholics. I AM Catholic. But people cannot have 8 or more children and expect others to pay to raise them. It is immoral to do so.

Question to all of you rambling on about eugenics: would you have a problem being forced to pay for a Mormon man to support his multiple wives and children, or would you tell him that if he wants to live that sort of lifestyle with 5 wives and dozens of children, that he should seek help from those of his own faith, namely, over Mormons, and not the government?

If I didn’t have to pay 33% income tax, I wouldn’t be going further into debt every month trying to care for my OWN family. I would be able to help those relatives of mine who struggle and work very hard to support themselves. Instead, I am relegated to paying for complete strangers to have child after child while I, who ask nothing from anyone, continue to struggle month to month.
 
joclucsylv said:
So…in conversation with a fellow Catholic who is pro contraception, she says that God doesn’t want us to have 10 children and then rely on the state for health insurance, WIC, and such.
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Can she show me that in the bible?
I have to say that I see this day after day in my job and it is frustrating. So my question is the following. Are you all ok with a Catholic NFP couple being open to more children when they already have several children supported by state aid?
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My question is this: Of those receiving public assistance, what is the nfp baby / welfare baby ratio?
 
Its this society.150yrs ago people some huge familys.Most families had 4 or more./every child was considered and asset.They could help on the farm and prosper the family.Now a days a family of 4 needs to make 30k just to be above poverty level.Many couples can make enough today to support big families because everything is so expensive just to live.We can’t regulate people’s sex lives because this economy makes it impossible for people to survive on less than 30k.This society in a sense demands people to make so much then people look down on others who have 8-10 children and say you have to stop having marital relations or use contraception.
 
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