NFP and Tamoxifen questions

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My wife and I are angry. We are faithful Catholics and are open to children. However my wife had breast cance and now has to take the drug tamoxifen for two years. This drug causes birth defects and we are only 31 years old. We therefore cannot get pregnant for two years.

However, because the NaPro technology Creighton method of NFP is based on reading mucus levels we are living a life of celibacy because using these guidelines she is always (all month every month) fertile due to this drug. Countless attempts to reach doctors to help answer our questions have failed. Dioceses, archdioceses priests and bishops cannot answer our questions and they don’t have anyone hired to answer our questions.

They want us to use this method but they don’t provide help to good honest Catholic couples. Is it any wonder they drive people to contraception methods.

Can anyone out there help us?
 
I am very sorry you are having to deal with this.

Have you checked into alternate methods of NFP? Maybe something temperature based and cross checked with a cervical sign would be better? You could look into the Sympo-Thermal method.

Also. If there is absolutely nothing that can be done and you have to abstain- think of the opportunity you have to obtain grace by conforming yourself to the will of God. Separating yourself from him through anger, resentment, and contraceptive use will get you NOTHING except the chance of eternal damnation. Conforming yourself to his will, taking up your cross, offering your sufferings for the good of your marriage and the intentions of others… think of the things you could accomplish with THAT. It could be great.

Or you could be angry. Or you could contracept.

I don’t mean to blow off what is an obviously difficult situation for yourself and your wife. Obviously, this would be a difficult cross to bear.
 
Temps might be a LOT more helpful in your circumstance.

There is a complete NFP manual available for download at nfpandmore.org/nfphowto.shtml

The authors, the Kippleys, are the folks that started and ran the Couple to Couple League until they parted ways with CCL a few years ago over some kind of dispute with the board. They do ask for a $10 donation for the book, but it is not required. You might have to give a token $.01 through Paypal, but that would be it.

THIS book will provide a lot of other signs besides mucous that could be of help-- temp, cervix, etc.

Best of luck to you. Please don’t be angry, and please don’t give up. I know it can be frustrating at times with some NFP folks who seem to be all sunshine and roses…

Margaret
 
GAH!!! I forgot to add something, especially in light of your wife’s illness…

The Kippleys are also huge into “ecological breastfeeding” as a part of NFP. Obviously that will not be relevant in your circumstances, but it is a large component of the book, so heads up, and don’t be offended…

Margaret
 
I am sorry about your wife’s cancer, and glad that she seems on the road to recovery.

Your anger at the Church is misplaced. If someone has a serious reason to avoid pregnancy then they are called to abstinence. The degree depends upon the situation. In some situations periodic abstinence using NFP can work nicely. In other situations total abstinence is called for. That may be the case for you until she is finished with the drugs.

Certainly you can explore other methods, but it sounds like this is quite serious and might warrant abstaining until she is done.

The comment about the Church “driving” people to use contraception is uncalled for. Contraception is a grave evil. Remember that NFP is an alternative to total abstinence for some people, not all, and never an alternative to contraception.

I understand that your comments are coming from a place of frustration, but your anger is misdirected. If NFP isn’t an option in this situation, then it just isn’t. That isn’t the fault of the Church.
 
OP, I am so sorry that you and your wife are going through such a tough time right now. I hope she will be able to make a full recovery from this awful disease.

While I agree that using STM instead of creighton might help you to determine her phase 3 better, I think that if you need to be 100% sure that she doesn’t get pregnant while on this drug (which is something you need to discern for yourselves), then you absolutely need to abstain completely. Regardless of whether you use NFP or contraception, having sex at all could potentially put your wife in the position to risk her life, or the life of an innocent child, if she becomes pregnant. Is that a chance the two of you are willing to take?

I agree with Krista, though, that this is definitely an opportunity to strengthen your faith and marriage bond through the graces you receive as you struggle with this difficult cross.

Prayers for you and your wife.
 
Hi OP-
I understand being angry when you try to find answers and they are difficult in coming; it can be very isolating that your Church gives you a bright line rule and then fails to give you any support when your situation is very difficult. I hope that the Tamoxifen is effective, and her cancer does not return.
As other posters suggested, maybe your wife isn’t fertile all the time. If this is the case, tracking other signs (temperature particularly) might be helpful. But, maybe a simpler option is a fertility monitor - it will tell you whether or not your wife is ovulating. The two best ones I hear of are the Lady Comp and the Clear Blue Easy (the Marquette method makes use of these fertility monitors, I think).
But as I’m sure you know, Tamoxifen does make your wife more fertile - it is used as a fertility drug and makes her ovulate more! So even with the most specific methodology, you might just find out that she really is fertile all the time - it’s not that you’re misreading the signs!
If this is the case, then unfortunately you and your wife must make very difficult decisions together along with your doctor. Is the tamoxifen absolutely necessary? Would you both feel comfortable with ceasing the treatment for 9 months if y’all get pregnant? These decisions are not easy to make, and you both should be commended for searching for answers and desiring to be faithful. Unfortunately, if your wife is fertile all the time and you both in consultation with doctors decide your wife cannot stop taking the drug, then your only option is abstinence. No doubt, this will be frustrating and angering; sex is such a comfort and joy, especially for couples in times of healing.
But maybe this time is given to you both to grow even deeper in love for one another; this cross, and it IS a cross, could lead to a greater understanding of the sacrificial nature of married love. I don’t state this lightly or glibly; others have written about cancer bringing a greater depth to their marriages.

Please know that I will pray for you both, and hope you get the support you need to find some degree of peace with whatever you decide.
 
Just in case anybody sees this and has some words of comfort… I must take tamoxifen for ten years starting in April, I am 25 years old, my spouse is a non-practicing Catholic. Currently pregnant and undergoing chemo, post double mastectomy. Both baby and I doing great. I just don’t want to destroy my marriage by denying my spouse sex for ten years when he’s only ever tolerated our practice of NFP. Trying to learn how to use some version of NFP when regular signs of fertility are totally messed up by chemo and hormone drugs. Thanks guys.
 
ocuinn said:
They want us to use this method but they don’t provide help to good honest Catholic couples. Is it any wonder they drive people to contraception methods.

Can anyone out there help us?
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You misunderstand NFP.

The choice is not between NFP and contraception. Contraception is always gravely wrong, it is intrinsically evil.

When a couple have a serious reason to postpone/avoid a child for a time or indefinitely, abstinence is the **only **choice. NFP gives the alternative of *periodic *abstinence over *total *abstinence for most people. NFP is a great gift to couples in such situations.

It cannot be used in *every *situation due to situations such as you describe-- medication that renders fertility signs unusable for example. In those cases, where it is life/death and NFP is not a good option, yes, a couple may be called to continence for a period of time, subordinating and sacrificing their sexual intimacy for the good of the wife.
 
Hey, my husband actually started this thread several years ago when I was in your situation. I ended up following the couple to couple league method of NFP, the symptothermal method and primarily relying on my body temperature to determine fertile and infertile periods as the mucus was pretty unreliable (so the Creighton Method was unreliable for me at that time) while I was taking tamoxifen and it worked. I did not get pregnant at all during the 3 years that I took tamoxifen. My doctor is currently giving me the ok to temporarily stop tamoxifen to try to have more children. I was in contact with a woman through the Couple to Couple League, I got in touch with her through the website so check it out. Her name is Vicki Braun. any other questions, feel free to contact me. Don’t worry it is possible to practice NFP successfully in your situation, although there was more abstinence than before. we’ll keep you in our prayers! Mary (mahratti@hotmail.com)
 
Mary, oh my goodness, thank you for your response! God is good; I sent a message to CCL last night while I was in horrible panic mode and if you can believe it, Vicki Braun called me this morning. I am going to take the class now and she is going to help me sort through things after baby Tony is born and I start the tamoxifen. I am thrilled to hear, first of all, that you’re doing well and will, God willing, be adding another sweet baby to your family, and it gives me tremendous hope to hear that you were able to use NFP with total success for three years in spite of the irregularities caused by tamoxifen. I have been strongly advised never to become pregnant again because my cancer is heavily hormone receptor positive and grade III (which is why I went into surgery for double mastectomy just a couple days after being diagnosed, and I have to do TC chemo while pregnant). So I truly need this to work! It was so easy to plan my two pregnancies using NFP before cancer, but I know it’s going to be much more complicated when tamoxifen enters the mix. Don’t know yet how significant of an impact the chemo will have on my fertility. But I do believe that if I am diligent, I can use NFP without fear of becoming pregnant and harming my baby and putting myself at risk for cancer reoccurrence. That being said, when I had this dreaded discussion with my husband this evening (told him I really couldn’t have a tubal ligation in good conscience), he told me he’s still getting a vasectomy. He is a confirmed Catholic, but lives a more “mainstream” Christian lifestyle. He’s my rock and the love of my life, so I hope in the Lord that we can keep powering through this. He’s supportive of my taking the class, at any rate, but he thinks it’s medieval to believe that sterilization, in my situation, is morally wrong. I can’t say that I blame him; I was in shock when my most trusted priest told me sterilization was never justified, not even for my problem. How vain of me 😛 I’ll try to convince my husband to sit in on the virtual class with me and we’ll see where that leads. God bless you, Mary. I’ll be praying for your family too!
Teresa
 
:gopray2::gopray2: for both of you, Mary and Teresa. Your serendipitous connection has made my day. There is something strange and exiting about this first full moon of 2015. I’ve been walking on clouds today and it’s the strangest of feelings and your posts were the icing on the cake.

God bless and keep you both and your families also. :crossrc::crossrc:
 
ocuinn said:
Hey, my husband actually started this thread several years ago when I was in your situation. I ended up following the couple to couple league method of NFP, the symptothermal method and primarily relying on my body temperature to determine fertile and infertile periods as the mucus was pretty unreliable (so the Creighton Method was unreliable for me at that time) while I was taking tamoxifen and it worked. I did not get pregnant at all during the 3 years that I took tamoxifen. My doctor is currently giving me the ok to temporarily stop tamoxifen to try to have more children. I was in contact with a woman through the Couple to Couple League, I got in touch with her through the website so check it out. Her name is Vicki Braun. any other questions, feel free to contact me. Don’t worry it is possible to practice NFP successfully in your situation, although there was more abstinence than before. we’ll keep you in our prayers! Mary (mahratti@hotmail.com)
Click to expand...
Wow! What an amazing thread! What a wonderful conclusion. God’s will though sometimes not easy is worth it. This is an inspiring thread. A True success story of NFP being used in a serious situation with absolute holiness and faithfulness! Thank you both!
 
Teresa, I am glad you were able to connect with CCL and Vicki so quickly. thank you for your prayers, be assured of ours especially for your husband. God bless! Mary
 
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