NFP and traditional movements

[moon1234]

@fpt

First, please take this the right way, your English is very bad. Are you using some type of automatic translation program?

Second, I did not want to pick an argument. Most in the traditional movement that I know will not debate you, etc. They have their minds set and what they believe is fine with the Church. Nowhere does the Church mandate you must use NFP, etc. Nowhere does the Church mandate you must be friends with those who use NFP.

When I speak of NFP in this sense I am referring to those people who use NFP with a contraceptive mentality. They want to avoid more children at all costs while still having sex for pleasure. This just does not jive with most traditionalists as we feel we are not being open to life when using this method. Some in the traditional movement will practice abstainence for a short period after birth, surgery, illness, etc.

I know many in my traditional group who use NFP specifically to try and conceive. I am perfectly fine with this. None of the traditionalists I know disparage people knowing about thier bodies and how they work. They do have serious issues with NFP being turned to instead of ABC. To me this is no different.

I know at least FIVE husbands who are not in our traditional circle who allow their wives to use NFP. These men are always upset, grumpy, frustrated people for at least a week to two weeks each month. They are not fun to be around. Their wife tells them “no sex, not safe” and that is it. It is not a mutual agreement. The husbands are cut off until the “safe time” returns. I would hate to have to worry about this in my marraige. I get grumpy enough without needing to worry if I can make love to my wife or not.

I think this is the crux of the matter. NFP practiced this way is not virtous. What is virtue is gained by avoiding as much as possible the chance to have a child?

I do think that not enjoying sex, only having sex during the fertile time, etc. is strange. I don’t support that and don’t know anyone who does. Most in my group just have sex when both partners want it and not when one partner allows it, during the “safe time”.

Go to any NFP class in most diocese today and you will find that a contraceptive mentality is very pervasive. I know MANY Catholics who think they are in good standing with the Church who make statements like " I have two kids, I am done". They think this is just fine. They are shocked when they hear we have seven kids and then ask how many more we are going to have. I just say, whatever we have is fine with me. I don’t have a fixed number.

I would never trade any of my children, as irritating as they are at times, for any kind of worldly posession. I hope when I die I will have that many more souls here on earth praying for my release from purgatory (hopefully).

 

[fpt]

@fpt

First, please take this the right way, your English is very bad. Are you using some type of automatic translation program?

Second, I did not want to pick an argument. Most in the traditional movement that I know will not debate you, etc. They have their minds set and what they believe is fine with the Church. Nowhere does the Church mandate you must use NFP, etc. Nowhere does the Church mandate you must be friends with those who use NFP.

When I speak of NFP in this sense I am referring to those people who use NFP with a contraceptive mentality. They want to avoid more children at all costs while still having sex for pleasure. This just does not jive with most traditionalists as we feel we are not being open to life when using this method. Some in the traditional movement will practice abstainence for a short period after birth, surgery, illness, etc.

I know many in my traditional group who use NFP specifically to try and conceive. I am perfectly fine with this. None of the traditionalists I know disparage people knowing about thier bodies and how they work. They do have serious issues with NFP being turned to instead of ABC. To me this is no different.

I know at least FIVE husbands who are not in our traditional circle who allow their wives to use NFP. These men are always upset, grumpy, frustrated people for at least a week to two weeks each month. They are not fun to be around. Their wife tells them “no sex, not safe” and that is it. It is not a mutual agreement. The husbands are cut off until the “safe time” returns. I would hate to have to worry about this in my marraige. I get grumpy enough without needing to worry if I can make love to my wife or not.

I think this is the crux of the matter. NFP practiced this way is not virtous. What is virtue is gained by avoiding as much as possible the chance to have a child?

I do think that not enjoying sex, only having sex during the fertile time, etc. is strange. I don’t support that and don’t know anyone who does. Most in my group just have sex when both partners want it and not when one partner allows it, during the “safe time”.

Go to any NFP class in most diocese today and you will find that a contraceptive mentality is very pervasive. I know MANY Catholics who think they are in good standing with the Church who make statements like " I have two kids, I am done". They think this is just fine. They are shocked when they hear we have seven kids and then ask how many more we are going to have. I just say, whatever we have is fine with me. I don’t have a fixed number.

I would never trade any of my children, as irritating as they are at times, for any kind of worldly posession. I hope when I die I will have that many more souls here on earth praying for my release from purgatory (hopefully).

I am so sorry if my English is too bad. For my future messages, I will try to improve my grammar…etc.

On the issues of NFP, I am okay with you that sometimes or often, be carefull not to see too black, there is a " cult of NFP ". Cult of NFP is dangerous, it is a very bad way to practice the sacrament of marriage. In point of view, it is against the state of marriage.

Nevertheless, after researches in books, in articles, in forums… and after different talks with friends on these topics, I am able to quote some sentences from catholics that are:

Full of Pharisianism, Legalism and Juridicism, Externalism, Prejudicism;

Full of Moralism, Scrupulism, Dolorism.

Great issue: How to define moderation about responsible procreation, on NFP, on sexual pleasure in marriage? What are the elements to take and those that have to be avoided by couples? The problematic is how to interpret the teaching of catholic church.

Good night,

 

[Rence]

All this bickering about what someone else should do with regards to having or not having children is making me so glad that if I get married, it will be after menopause. shaw:

 

[TrueLight]

All this bickering about what someone else should do with regards to having or not having children is making me so glad that if I get married, it will be after menopause. shaw:

The NMM (No marriage till menopause) crew – you and me both!

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

All this bickering about what someone else should do with regards to having or not having children is making me so glad that if I get married, it will be after menopause. shaw:

Or just marry someone who’s on board with what the Church actually teaches about NFP or is too much of a man to get grumpy if he can’t have sex with his wife for a few days.

Luna

 

[Rence]

The NMM (No marriage till menopause) crew – you and me both!

Yup!

 

[Rence]

Or just marry someone who’s on board with what the Church actually teaches about NFP or is too much of a man to get grumpy if he can’t have sex with his wife for a few days.

Luna

Or just wait till menopause, which has proven for me to be not that difficult at all

 

[fpt]

@fpt

First, please take this the right way, your English is very bad. Are you using some type of automatic translation program?

Second, I did not want to pick an argument. Most in the traditional movement that I know will not debate you, etc. They have their minds set and what they believe is fine with the Church. Nowhere does the Church mandate you must use NFP, etc. Nowhere does the Church mandate you must be friends with those who use NFP.

When I speak of NFP in this sense I am referring to those people who use NFP with a contraceptive mentality. They want to avoid more children at all costs while still having sex for pleasure. This just does not jive with most traditionalists as we feel we are not being open to life when using this method. Some in the traditional movement will practice abstainence for a short period after birth, surgery, illness, etc.

I know many in my traditional group who use NFP specifically to try and conceive. I am perfectly fine with this. None of the traditionalists I know disparage people knowing about thier bodies and how they work. They do have serious issues with NFP being turned to instead of ABC. To me this is no different.

I know at least FIVE husbands who are not in our traditional circle who allow their wives to use NFP. These men are always upset, grumpy, frustrated people for at least a week to two weeks each month. They are not fun to be around. Their wife tells them “no sex, not safe” and that is it. It is not a mutual agreement. The husbands are cut off until the “safe time” returns. I would hate to have to worry about this in my marraige. I get grumpy enough without needing to worry if I can make love to my wife or not.

I think this is the crux of the matter. NFP practiced this way is not virtous. What is virtue is gained by avoiding as much as possible the chance to have a child?

I do think that not enjoying sex, only having sex during the fertile time, etc. is strange. I don’t support that and don’t know anyone who does. Most in my group just have sex when both partners want it and not when one partner allows it, during the “safe time”.

Go to any NFP class in most diocese today and you will find that a contraceptive mentality is very pervasive. I know MANY Catholics who think they are in good standing with the Church who make statements like " I have two kids, I am done". They think this is just fine. They are shocked when they hear we have seven kids and then ask how many more we are going to have. I just say, whatever we have is fine with me. I don’t have a fixed number.

I would never trade any of my children, as irritating as they are at times, for any kind of worldly posession. I hope when I die I will have that many more souls here on earth praying for my release from purgatory (hopefully).

Nowhere does the Church mandate you must use NFP, etc. Nowhere does the Church mandate you must be friends with those who use NFP.

After reading some books and articles, I can say that responsible procreation is one of elements of catholic marriage. What is it in abstracto and in concreto? Which is the link with NFP or how to do the link with it?

In my opinion, Roman catholic church seems to explain that responsible procreation is a moral obligation (see natural contract) and a moral duty (see natural institution).

and for NFP??? May be not , but in theory NFP is a little part of responsible procreation.

 

[thewanderer]

Br. Jr, you know I hate when you say stuff like that.

If iT was written for the bishops, then what was witten for the laity? Surely the Catholiic faith doesn’t require years of philosophy to understand right and wrong.

The action is the charting, temperature taking, body fluid observing etc. Otherwise it would be pure abstaining “for a season”.

And when you know the time is not right, you abstain. So let’s say you’e using NFP for a year. You are abstaining whenever you think there is a possibility you can get pregnant. You are having sex, when you hope you can’t. Pure unitive sex.

And I know there are some priests who agree with me because I’ve heard sermons. And those priests have taken philosophy, theology etc.

I agree with you here. It is selfish because you want the sex without the babes. Although they are not on the same level, with NFP you also want to have sex without the babies. Otherwise one would abstain for the whole year.

To be honest, I don’t see how gaining more knowledge about ones fertility through charting can be a contraceptive action. How can the act of learning more about oneself be wrong? As has been pointed out, NFP can be, and is, used by many people to help become pregnant, as well as simply to understand more about ones health. So how is the act of charting wrong?

Since the act of charting obviously isn’t what’s wrong, why don’t we look at the other acts involved. Ok, there is having relations while infertile, and there is abstaining when fertile( which isn’t really an action as was pointed out, but rather a lack of action.)
Now I, for the life of me, cannot see anything intrinsically wrong with any of these actions(or inactions). If it is wrong to have relations while infertile, then that would be wrong whether or not one is trying to avoid pregnancy. If it is wrong to abstain while infertile, then the practice of complete abstinence would not be allowed either. In other words, there is nothin inherently wrong with any of the actions involved in using NFP to avoid conception. In other words, whether it is ok or not comes from the intention of those using it. But let me just point out that there is nothing wrong with wishing to avoid a pregnancy because of serious reasons, complete abstinence is one way to do this which I think no traditionalist would argue with. So if there is something wrong in the intent of the person, it can’t be that they desire to avoid a pregnancy, that is, assuming they have just reasons to avoid.

If there is any hope of likening NFP to ABC then it has to come somehow through the intention of engaging in relations while trying to avoid pregnancy. However, I still don’t see anything wrong with that if done for the right reasons, for the strengthening of the marriage and preventing the temptation to sin.

The big difference between NFP and ABC is that none of the acts involved in NFP are intrinsically wrong. Yes NFP can be abused, but it can also be used well.

Fpt:

I would hazard a guess that part of the reason some people think NFP is wrong is due to a mistaken idea of what is involved in NFP. I could be wrong about this, but it seems that the examples they give are always people with very few kids, if any, (not that I think the number of children a couple has determines how open to life they are, some people just have fertility problems) and whose default throughout their marriage is to use NFP unless they decide that they want another child. But for those who must abstain for serious reasons, but for whom abstaining for such a length(whatever it happens to be) would cause problems in their marriage or tempt one of them to sin, I see absolutely nothing wrong with NFP, and neither does the church.

 

[manualman]

… I know at least FIVE husbands who are not in our traditional circle who allow their wives to use NFP. These men are always upset, grumpy, frustrated people for at least a week to two weeks each month. They are not fun to be around. Their wife tells them “no sex, not safe” and that is it. It is not a mutual agreement. The husbands are cut off until the “safe time” returns. I would hate to have to worry about this in my marraige. I get grumpy enough without needing to worry if I can make love to my wife or not.
…

Wow, Moon, there is a lot to unpack in this paragraph. Maybe some of it comes off in a way you didn’t intend?

1. “Allow” their wives to use NFP? Do you hear how this sounds? The discernment of a serious reason to avoid pregnancy is a thing to be discerned together, not something the lord of the manor grants to the lesser spouse as a favor. (You gotta admit you made it sound that way)
2. Perhaps these men are merely overgrown boys? Shouldn’t a real man be a part of the decision in recognizing a serious reason not to have another child right now rather than just a horny teenager concerned with his next thrill? If they’ve decided it together, then it isn’t the wife saying NO, it is a mutual decision. (Which doesn’t entirely eliminate frustration, I’ll grant you. But it isn’t supposed to. The sex drive is the lie detector for the ‘serious reason.’)
3. Pardon me, but the tone in your last sentence sounds like you are saying “when I want it, I get it.” Maybe it’s me but the whole paragraph seems vacant of the awareness that sexual intimacy isn’t just about what the man wants, when he wants it. Maybe that’s the real problem you’re seeing around you?

 

[moon1234]

My point is that many women use NFP as a way of frustrating their marraige vows. St. Thomas teaches that each spouse is required to fufill the marraige oblogation when it is demanded of them. Meaning when requested. telling a spouse it is not the safe time is the same as a refusal.

I think all to many people believe their body is still their own when they get married. It is not. Each gives the other the right to their body. I am not talking about abuse (i.e. the other spuouse is sick in some way), but rather the right to use and request the marraige duty when it pleases them.

I know few couples who BOTH have the same desire to use NFP. I am sure they exist, but often than not NFP is used in a contraceptive mentality by one partner to the detriment of the other.

Forgive my use of terms like permit, etc. If NFP is supposed to be mutual consent than I must permit it’s use in my household. The same would be true for my wife. More often than not it is the woman who does not want more kids. Pejoritives like horney teenager, boy, etc. are then used to denigrate the other parties views.

 

[etmom]

My point is that many women use NFP as a way of frustrating their marraige vows. St. Thomas teaches that each spouse is required to fufill the marraige oblogation when it is demanded of them. Meaning when requested. telling a spouse it is not the safe time is the same as a refusal.

.

The discernment about whether to use NFP to postpone a pregnancy is a mutual one made for serious reasons. And if it was made mutually, why is one spouse proposing maritial relations during a time of abstainance? If it’s a mutual decision, that means exactly that: mutual. One spouse should not be “demanding” anything during an previously agreed upon time of abstainance that has previously been discerned to have serious reason.

Men should know enough about NFP to be able to read a simple chart and understand exactly what phase their wife is in if they have mutually agreed to abstain. Women should not be the gatekeeper and be put in that position. If they have not mutually agreed to abstain, or disagree about what is a “serious” reason, then there are bigger issues at play that should be addressed.

I would think it would be hard for you to really know the hearts, souls and intimate details of someone else’s marriage to be able to judge so easily about the motives and experience of others.

 

[manualman]

Moon, you and I must know different men. I sure can’t say that I’m aware of a lot a guys around me eager to have more kids, but their wives are holding them back. In my experience, the opposite is more common; he’d rather have a big screen TV and BMW than another child…

What a man has to recognize is that intimacy isn’t just about his selfish thrill, but about giving oneself to the beloved. It just isn’t that at all if he’s steamrolling over her anxieties, health issues or exhaustion. If he believes there is a serious reason to postpone another child, then it’s not just on her to guard the gate. He ought to be mature enough to live by his decisions.

 

[Melchior_1]

What a man has to recognize is that intimacy isn’t just about his selfish thrill, but about giving oneself to the beloved. It just isn’t that at all if he’s steamrolling over her anxieties, health issues or exhaustion. If he believes there is a serious reason to postpone another child, then it’s not just on her to guard the gate. He ought to be mature enough to live by his decisions.

Excellent post!

 

[moon1234]

Moon, you and I must know different men. I sure can’t say that I’m aware of a lot a guys around me eager to have more kids, but their wives are holding them back. In my experience, the opposite is more common; he’d rather have a big screen TV and BMW than another child…

What a man has to recognize is that intimacy isn’t just about his selfish thrill, but about giving oneself to the beloved. It just isn’t that at all if he’s steamrolling over her anxieties, health issues or exhaustion. If he believes there is a serious reason to postpone another child, then it’s not just on her to guard the gate. He ought to be mature enough to live by his decisions.

You are assuming that there ARE serious reasons. I am not disparaging those people that DO have serious reasons. What I was saying is that the male friends I know were PUSHED into agreeing to NFP. They are doing it because their WIFE wants them to. This causes them to be angry about the decision. They do NOT tell their wives about it for fear of getting “cut off”. Maybe your circle of friends is different. Mine are used to not worrying about charts, etc. They want to have relations with their wife when the moment presents itself, only to have her say “Sorry honey, not safe time. Rember we talked about this”.

It all sounds so anti-life to me. I guess we just live in different worlds. My guy friends tell me more than I probably would like to know. These couples DO NOT have serious financial or medical reasons to space kids. It is purely for selfish reasons. I can say that bacause some of them ADMIT they don’t want more kids cause “They are done” and “Two is enough for us” or “We are remodeling this year and another kid is not in the budget”

Makes me sick some times. They then have the gall to tell me I must be busy with seven kids and they are glad they don’t have my job. I guess when I said friends I meant people that talk to on a frequent basis.

 

[manualman]

I’m confused by these guys though. If I’m understanding right, they too are partaking of the mindset of “done, wanna remodel, have vacation plans” and yet they are resentful that the wife “refuses” them, they just need to overall grow up. Somebody please tell them where babies come from!

In my experience, it is the ABC users who gradually forget that sex is tied up with baby-making. NFP would be VERY hard to practice for a couple who has lost sight of that basic reality. That’s actually precisely why NFP isn’t morally the same as ABC; it doesn’t divorce love making from baby making. They stay part of the same subject. Sex is always tied up with fertility in the soul of the couple. That would be very hard to live if one had the attitude of sex as recreation.