NFP, Birth Control and Choice

[ryecroft]

The reason I am writting this post is not to get a feud going on here. I’m Catholic and consider myself to be pro choice (at least in some situations)-One of the problems I have with being Catholic is the whole teaching on Artificial Birth Control. I have been to NFP classes with my husband when we thought that might be a possibility and if it was, we would more than likely be doing that (because of health reasons it’s not). But the Church teaches that NFP is the only acceptable method of spacing children - I have two Catholic friends - each of whom were staunchly on NFP (one on Billings I believe) - each got pregnant(one twice - now she’s on the pill and hasn’t had any more unexpected pregnancies occur). When one of them spoke to her Parish Priest about this he said that God must have really wanted her to have this child so He “over ruled” her decision. This seems to be the basic consensus and answer about and for people getting pregnant who are using NFP. I also have a number of friends who are Catholic and on Artificial Birth Control - be it the pill or an IUD or whatever. While religiously taking the ABC, one of them got pregnant. I know she wasn’t happy about the timing and she got some similar response from the Priest in her parish “well it’s not your decision when to get pregnant now is it - it’s God’s!” Now if God can intervene whenever he chooses to do so than what should it matter whether or not one is using NFP or artificial birth control? It seems that if God wants you to be pregnant than one way or another -be you on NFP or ABC it’s going to happen. This is some of the confusion I feel about being Catholic and dealing with all of the stuff going on with ABC and Abortion. I wish there was another option besides NFP for those of us that do not want to get pregnant “whenever” and can not do NFP - and please don’t say that “well you can abstain” because I just don’t see that happening with any of my friends-also I believe being conjugally available to your spouse is part of the whole Catholic Marriage thing. I’m not trying to get a debate going on how effective NFP is because I have known too many people who have done NFP seriously - I mean you walked into their master bath and there would be a piece of paper on the wall with cycle stuff written out - I only know two couples from the parish who have used NFP and not had something unplanned happen. It almost makes some of my friends and even myself (all of whom are Catholic) feel like we were only put on this Earth to have children. Don’t get me wrong, I want that but I don’t want it to encompass my whole reason for existing. I really am trying to understand this - I don’t like feeling at odds with this. Thanks- Ryecroft

 

[Schluns]

Based on your requests, I can offer you no advice except to offer up a prayer for you and your husband.

 

[OchsFam]

I would be interested in what “medical” reason you have for not practicing NFP, but that is neither here nor there.

To clarify the purpose of NFP, you need to understand why you would use it. NFP is God’s way of preventing child birth if you absolutely must. God gave women a cycle of infertility to allow just such a thing. In the end, NFP allows you to let God have control of one of the most spiritual parts of your life. When you use artificial birth control, you take that control out of God’s hands. God can of course get you pregnant while you are the birth control pill, but there is a natural system he gave you to get pregnant and you are interfering with it. God is not going to immaculately cause you to conceive.

The birth control pill is an abortificant and as such is not a viable method. NFP, when practiced correctly, is more effective than a condom and equally as effective as the birth control pill without aborting babies or keeping God out of your marriage. Maybe instead of questioning the Church’s teachings, you should question why you don’t agree with it.

On a side note, I have known my fair share of people using the birth control pill who have gotten pregnant. I do not think anyone would argue against the effectiveness of the birth control pill, but you should questions the method.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I do not completely agree with the church’s teaching on “spacing children”. I understand the teaching and agree with most of the teaching. Some parts I have problems with (as do many priests) if a married monogamous couple used sterilization after producing a reasonable number of children, or a married monogamous couple use condom I do not in my heart believe they have sinned. The reason is they have done their vocation well and now are preventing excessive children who they could only raise at best under strained conditions. So the Church teaches celibacy or timed celibacy is their only opinion until menopause. Menopause sterilizes the woman when nature declares her done as a child bearing mother. So if they (the couple) sterilize one partner after a couple of kids what is the difference? I say none. I fully understand that does not agree with the church teaching.

 

[1ke]

The reason I am writting this post is not to get a feud going on here. I’m Catholic and consider myself to be pro choice (at least in some situations)-

In what situations should the killing children be allowed?

One of the problems I have with being Catholic is the whole teaching on Artificial Birth Control. I have been to NFP classes with my husband when we thought that might be a possibility and if it was, we would more than likely be doing that (because of health reasons it’s not).

What health reasons prevent a woman from monitoring her fertility signs? I am not aware of any.

But the Church teaches that NFP is the only acceptable method of spacing children

Not exactly. The Church teaches if one has a just reason to avoid or space children for a time, one may practice continence-- either periodic based on the signs of fertility or complete continence until the necessity to avoid has passed. Women may also use ecological breastfeeding to space children.

I have two Catholic friends - each of whom were staunchly on NFP (one on Billings I believe) - each got pregnant(one twice - now she’s on the pill and hasn’t had any more unexpected pregnancies occur). When one of them spoke to her Parish Priest about this he said that God must have really wanted her to have this child so He “over ruled” her decision. This seems to be the basic consensus and answer about and for people getting pregnant who are using NFP. I also have a number of friends who are Catholic and on Artificial Birth Control - be it the pill or an IUD or whatever. While religiously taking the ABC, one of them got pregnant. I know she wasn’t happy about the timing and she got some similar response from the Priest in her parish “well it’s not your decision when to get pregnant now is it - it’s God’s!”

I am sorry the priest and others expressed it that way, as IMHO that is neither accurate nor helpful.

God allows the ordinary consequences of our actions to come to fruition. Only rarely does God miraculously intervene-- Mary, Elizabeth, Sarah, and a few others in the bible come to mind.

The ordinary end of an act of intercourse is conception. The answer for why someone would become pregnant when using NFP or when using contraception is the same: they had intercourse.

In the case of NFP, they may have mischarted, they may have had mucus they did not detect, the sperm may have lived an extra day, they may have ovulated early/late. In the case of contraception, there was some mechanical defect or biological override that occurred.

While observing your fertility signs reduced the likelihood of pregnancy, it is not a guarantee. While using a contraceptive reduces the likelihood of pregnancy, it is not a guarantee. Any act of intercourse between a couple could produce a child. Therefore any couple that has intercourse should be prepared for that outcome.

Now if God can intervene whenever he chooses to do so than what should it matter whether or not one is using NFP or artificial birth control? It seems that if God wants you to be pregnant than one way or another -be you on NFP or ABC it’s going to happen.

This framing of the pregnancy as “God wanted it” is misplaced, IMHO. It could be the priest is trying to “look on the bright side” or give a platitude. It’s not a theological statement, by any stretch. God can intervene, but He allows our free choices to run their course. This is the difference between his perfect will and permissive will. God’s foreknowledge does not equate to predestination.

Also, the morality of NFP and immorality of contraception are not based on their effectiveness or ineffectiveness. Nor is it based on the fact that God *could *intervene and suspend the natural order. Again, God allows the natural consequences of actions we take to occur.

 

[1ke]

This is some of the confusion I feel about being Catholic and dealing with all of the stuff going on with ABC and Abortion. I wish there was another option besides NFP for those of us that do not want to get pregnant “whenever” and can not do NFP - and please don’t say that “well you can abstain” because I just don’t see that happening with any of my friends-

I hope you will study more of what the Church actually teaches regarding marital intimacy and why contraception is a gravely disordered use of our sexuality.

As to abstaining indefinitely-- yes, many couples are called to do that. If your reason for avoiding is that serious then you may be too. What your friends do or do not do should not influence your decisions. We are each called to form our conscience with the mind of the Church.

also I believe being conjugally available to your spouse is part of the whole Catholic Marriage thing.

Certainly it is. Which is why you might need to re-evaluate your reason for abstaining if/when you and your spouse desire to come together and share marital intimacy.

I’m not trying to get a debate going on how effective NFP is because I have known too many people who have done NFP seriously - I mean you walked into their master bath and there would be a piece of paper on the wall with cycle stuff written out - I only know two couples from the parish who have used NFP and not had something unplanned happen

The morality of NFP is not based on its effectiveness. Neither is the immorality of contraception based on its effectiveness.

It almost makes some of my friends and even myself (all of whom are Catholic) feel like we were only put on this Earth to have children. Don’t get me wrong, I want that but I don’t want it to encompass my whole reason for existing. I really am trying to understand this - I don’t like feeling at odds with this. Thanks- Ryecroft

Yes, the secular culture has taken many people far from God’s plan. The primary purpose of marriage IS the begetting and raising up of children in the faith. Modern culture would have us believe it’s for many other reasons. It’s not.

Our memories are not very long in this regard. Few recall that it has been a mere 70 years since any Christian group tried to assert that contraception could be justified in marriage. Few can discern the purpose of the vocation of Matrimony any longer. The word Matrimony means literally “the making of a mother.”

I do suggest that you pick up a copy of Kimberly Hahn’s book Life Giving Love. It is very good and readable.

 

[ryecroft]

OchsFam:

]I would be interested in what “medical” reason you have for not practicing NFP, but that is neither here nor there.

1ke

What health reasons prevent a woman from monitoring her fertility signs? I am not aware of any.

Since you asked, I have kidney disease -called Loin Pain Hematuria Syndrome with constant recurrant kidney stones - one of the symptoms is “hematuria” - in my case gross (really big cells) of hematuria (blood in the urine) which occurs nearly 100% of the time. This combined with the fact that I have ovarian cysts (I’ve had them removed three times at least) as well as periods that can last anywhere from the shortest being 2 days to the longest being nearly 8 months (which I have to get transfusion for but it doesn’t often go on that long). Yes, I have gone to Doctors - even a Catholic one - but the best I could be told was that some of this was from the cysts and the tumors - (fibroid and one regular) - mind you I had these long periods long before I ever had any fibroid tumors. The GYN’s have generally wanted to either go in and do a myomectamy which could wind up getting me a hysterectomy which I don’t want because my Husband and I DO WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN - When the Doctors say my body can handle it and hopefully handle carrying another child - we have had more than 6 pregnancies - most of which ended in miscarriage - the other, I was so ill they feared for my life and the life of the fetus so we unfortunately had to terminate - (I do not want to get into a whole dialogue over this - it wasn’t something I really wanted to do, but my husband and I made an agreement prior to getting married - if both of our lives are in danger than there is no question what should be done-and there was no reason to have two deaths over this). So can you see how this might make it difficult to do the fertility checking? We have already been over this with a priest and have gotten the o.k. to use birth control - it had to do with the secondary effect - the birth control is currently used to shrink the cysts and to keep me from bleeding so excessively - the secondary effect is that it keeps me from getting pregnant. I was taking Birth Control pills long before I ever became sexually active in order to help attempt to control the cycles.
Just lately, I’m hearing so much about ABC being the reason society is the way it is today and I can understand some of the arguments. I do pray about this - and I pray that God will let me be well enough to be able to carry a child to term - I’d love to eventually have at least four kids - that’s what my husband and I discussed before we got married. Currently (I even put up another post about this) we’re even looking into getting a Zetek ovulation predictor kit which is the most accurate you can get. Really, if there had been a way for NFP to work for us I really believe we might have used it - I have to put enough chemicals in my body because of my kidney and that kind of havoc.

OCHSFAM:

]To clarify the purpose of NFP, you need to understand why you would use it. NFP is God’s way of preventing child birth if you absolutely must. God gave women a cycle of infertility to allow just such a thing. In the end, NFP allows you to let God have control of one of the most spiritual parts of your life. When you use artificial birth control, you take that control out of God’s hands. God can of course get you pregnant while you are the birth control pill, but there is a natural system he gave you to get pregnant and you are interfering with it. God is not going to immaculately cause you to conceive…/

QUOTE]

*The birth control pill is an abortificant…/*QUOTE]

To me, I still don’t get this - I was not trying to imply that God ever would "immaculately "cause me to conceive - but God can still decide if God wants you to be pregnant regardless of the choice of contraception. I don’t see any difference in- they are both trying to keep someone from getting pregnant - God also chose for me to have kidney disease and both my husband and I have a hard time understanding why God would want me to get pregnant if the outcome would again either be another miscarriage or another choice of either ending the pregnancy or having one or both of us die. All I really can do now is to do as my doctors tell me to do (which is to currently give my body a rest from pregnancy) and to pray that I am able to get to a point where I can carry at least to 32-36 weeks. I get that I’ll never understand all of God’s workings but many of them sure make a lot more sense than some of the others.

Also, not all forms of ABC and the pill are abortifacients - I have gotten with my doctor on this - while some do cause the fertilized egg not to implant that doesn’t occur with all of them. I won’t say anything else on that - it’s been debated long and hard on here - and I don’t believe my Catholic doctor would lie to me about that.

I guess some people are just better about taking whatever comes out of the “magesterium’s” mouth with 100% unquestionable belief - but I was brought up to question and to want to know the reasons why certain laws and beliefs are the way they are - as far as ABC goes I get a lot of people telling me to go to the COCC and for all that which is mentioned in the Chatecism, there are quotes of people but not a lot backing it up from the Bible. But I’ll leave it at that. Thank you for all of your interest and help!

 

[JACQUE_D]

I do not completely agree with the church’s teaching on “spacing children”. I understand the teaching and agree with most of the teaching. Some parts I have problems with (as do many priests) if a married monogamous couple used sterilization after producing a reasonable number of children, or a married monogamous couple use condom I do not in my heart believe they have sinned. The reason is they have done their vocation well and now are preventing excessive children who they could only raise at best under strained conditions. So the Church teaches celibacy or timed celibacy is their only opinion until menopause. Menopause sterilizes the woman when nature declares her done as a child bearing mother. So if they (the couple) sterilize one partner after a couple of kids what is the difference? I say none. I fully understand that does not agree with the church teaching.

Here here. Finally some common sense. I have been arguing this point, to no avail. Called a sinner, even illicit. I have had my fair share of children. I am not aborting or anything like that. My husband and I have 6 children. That is what we can afford and manage. We are both working and both mid fourties-ish.
Jacque D:extrahappy:

 

[Gentle_Cat]

Ryecroft, I am sure there are good priests and theologians who would say that, in view of your difficult circumstances, you could in good conscience use ABC, if you, your husband and doctor decide that would be the best thing for you. We do believe in a God of love and compassion, after all. I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[manualman]

You sure have a rough hand to play. My sincere condolences on the losses of your pregnancies. You’ve been through a lot and seem to genuinely want the (name removed by moderator)ut of catholics on the issue.

We’ve never used ABC. Instead we’ve used the Billing Method of NFP whenever we discerned it appropriate in our 10 years of marriage. In that time we’ve had 3 kids, all of them when we were NOT following the rules for avoiding (which is not necessarily the same thing as using the rules to TRY to conceive).

During those years, I’ve learned a few things about sex and marriage. The biggest thing I learned is that the major difference between NFP and ABC is EXACTLY the reason most folks (not you) don’t want to use NFP: the abstinance periods. People are DESPERATE to avoid this sexual fasting time. The sad thing is that this is precisely the time in which we as a couple are most able to hear God’s voice speak to us regarding children. I have no doubt that we’d have stopped at 2 kids if we were ABC users. Infant #2 was HARD! Scared us off more for a while, but it was the abstinance times that faced us up to the ultimate triviality of our ‘serious reasons’ to avoid.

Catholics today generally poorly understand catholic teaching on sexuality. We tend to dumb it down to “Only with your spouse, never with ABC and never have an abortion.” Those are true to an extent, but don’t say anything about the REASONS. God made us sexual creations so that we could participate in HIS divine creativity. When man and wife combine in union with God’s plan, the result is so profound that new life can come forth. When we reject the fertility and still try to seize the pleasureable aspect while sterilizing the outcome, we lose more than we think we do. Texas Roofer and fans above demonstrate this misunderstanding when they argue that post-menopausal women are sterile and sex is OK for those couples, so tying tubes after having the desired number of kids is equivalent. Apparently, such thinkers don’t realize the difference between an action GOD takes and one that WE do. Such is an elegant synopsis of the problem in our entire culture!

I fear you are a victim of the drug and profit driven focus of our modern medical system. OB-GYNs are not trained anymore about fixing problems with the natural rythyms of the woman’s cycle. Instead, they are taught how to FORCE symptoms using hormones and drugs. A few rebel against this though. Consider contacting Dr. Thomas Hilgers to see if there are alternatives for resolving your troublesome symptoms instead of masking them with hormones. Symptom treatment works fairly well for those who don’t care about the moral effects of the hormones, so doctors don’t often focus on alternatives. Dr. Hilgers does. (BTW, the fertility monitor you mention would seem to be a totally acceptable way to practice NFP, but I’m not personally familiar with it)

I’m not going to argue with you on the matter of abortion. I’m not persuasive. I can’t understand how anyone can be against some abortions, but not others. The unborn child is either human or he isn’t. If he’s human, then we can’t intentionally kill him even to save ourselves. If it’s not human, then why waste worries about ANY abortion? I don’t mean to be blunt, I just don’t know how else to be clear.

Above all else, keep praying and take time to listen. God answers the questions of honest seekers.

 

[jpm1977]

How long are the abstinence periods, btw?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Would you be willing, or would it be possible to consult with an NFP only Doctor. They usually have different training to deal with various issues.

You never know, you might be surprised to find a doctor who has experience with what you experiencing, and be able to treat you in a manner that is consistent with the Church, but also what is best for you.

My NFP doctor told me once, that in medicine the Church wants what is best for the patient. There has to be a way of treating your health in a moral way.

I pray that you’ll be able to get help for this.

 

[Schluns]

How long are the abstinence periods, btw?

Here’s the catch, every women is different, and the longer one uses NFP the more intune they are to their cycles and can use different rules, to the abstinence periods can actually decrease in time the longer one is using NFP.

So it is really hard to say 7 days, 3 days, etc.

 

[jpm1977]

Here’s the catch, every women is different, and the longer one uses NFP the more intune they are to their cycles and can use different rules, to the abstinence periods can actually decrease in time the longer one is using NFP.

So it is really hard to say 7 days, 3 days, etc.

So not, like two weeks a month or something like that? I think a lot of people have misconceptions about it like you can only actually have sex during some small window if you want to avoid conception.

Btw, a lot of Catholics I come across online and elsewhere consider NFP to be just as bad as birth control, and consider Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae to be heretical. To them, any effort to purposely seek avoid conception is against the Church’s teaching.

So, if those Catholics consider NFP a sin, doesn’t that just serve to be scandalous too? I mean, if you can argue that Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae was heretical and in error, it sort of makes everything fair game in a way. Why not call into question Theology of the Body and everything else too? I’m not saying this should be done, I’m just saying one person’s conservative orthodoxy might be someone else’s grave heresy (in their mind, not the Church’s).

 

[manualman]

Yup, it’s generally best to let the Church be your guide rather than trying to guide the Church. This is the case whether your personality tends towards the left or the right on moral matters!

 

[cm60131]

You might want to look into the “new” science of Naprotechnology for some remedy of these many complications and sufferings. You can find this information online…this is a system of Fertility Care…something you don’t hear about because in this culture fertility is treated as a disease. However, it is a very important body system and needs to be treated with high regard.

This Insitute is in St.Louis. The Pope Pius VI Insitute. Dr. Hilgers will speak with you on the phone if you call his nurse for a phone appointment.

 

[OchsFam]

Btw, a lot of Catholics I come across online and elsewhere consider NFP to be just as bad as birth control, and consider Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae to be heretical. To them, any effort to purposely seek avoid conception is against the Church’s teaching.

So, if those Catholics consider NFP a sin, doesn’t that just serve to be scandalous too? I mean, if you can argue that Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae was heretical and in error, it sort of makes everything fair game in a way. Why not call into question Theology of the Body and everything else too? I’m not saying this should be done, I’m just saying one person’s conservative orthodoxy might be someone else’s grave heresy (in their mind, not the Church’s).

I am not sure which Catholics believe NFP is a sin, but NFP is monitoring your natural signs of fertility and avoiding intercourse at certain times to avoid pregnancy. The fact is, there are legitimate reasons to avoid pregnancy temporarily and NFP uses abstinence to avoid conception. If abstinence is sinful, than people should leave work, never attend Mass and always stay at home attempting to produce children. It is not meant to be a permanent thing because if you are called to be married, you are called to conceive children. If you have a legitimate reason to avoid children, the truth is that no other way uses God’s method of preventing pregnancy. No other method allows God to control the spacing of your children. While it is a conscience effort to avoid pregnancy, the fact is you are using God’s method, not a human method. There is a reason women have a period of infertility.

 

[Sillara]

On a side note, I have known my fair share of people using the birth control pill who have gotten pregnant. I do not think anyone would argue against the effectiveness of the birth control pill, but you should questions the method.

I exist because my mother’s birth control pills failed.

 

[laomath]

I would encourage you to continue to do research into NFP. In my experience, being as natural as possible and knowing your body better than you would without doing NFP leads being aware of and actually helping other medical conditions a body might have. I don’t know if that would be true in your case, but getting with an NFP only doctor might be helpful. I know that in my case, because I charted, my NFP only doctor was able to recognize in my cycle that I was low on hormones and I was able to replace during pregnancy so as not to loose my child. After reading about your condition, NFP would be probably be harder for you to learn than the average person. That being said, it might also be a great blessing.

There may or may not be an NFP only doctor in your area, but I am sure you could consult someone in a different area. I have included a website that lists NFP only doctors.
www.omsoul.com

I think you are doing right in continuing to pray about this. Since you do want to have children, I would suggest you seek as much help as you can and keep your heart open as much as possible (as it seems you are.)

You may also want to read “The art of Natural Family Planning” and “The Good News about Sex and Marriage” These do have sections devoted to having trouble conceiving/carrying to term and the Church’s teaching (and reasons).

In Christ,
laomath

 

[tamccrackine]

Many people, to include many Catholics, misunderstand the true goal of NFP. They automatically assume it’s “Catholic birth control” because the ends are the same… no pregnancy.

But it’s deeper than that. The ends must justify the means. Getting to the “no pregnancy” stage should be done by licit means. As Christopher West said in Theology of the Body for Beginners…(and I paraphrase) “Just because Grandma has been diagnosed with terminal cancer doesn’t give us the right to kill her. She’s going to die but the licit means is to allow her to die naturally, not for us to kill her.”

I will pray for you because it sounds like you’ve been given a big cross to bear in this regards. Christ will help you carry it so please look to Him and the Church.