NFP disaster. Any advice?

[Xantippe]

Back in the middle ages, it was thought that a child conceived during the menstrual cycle would be deformed hence sex was discouraged as medically unwise… but over the last 500 years we know that that isn’t the case.

Right. That’s in the Summa.

By the way, that’s an interesting case to save for later where a major medieval Catholic source recommended abstinence where intercourse would be likely to produce health problems in the child.

 

[Patavium]

WAY WAY too expensive.

Who in the world has $600 lying around for a one time purchase?

Most people don’t and it would take months to save up for something like that.

She’s already dropped a huge sum of money for a monitor.

She should now trash it and buy something even more expensive?

Unbelievable the advice given on these threads.

First she should just have baby because clearly she isn’t open to life enough according to holler then thou posters and now she needs to spend even more money on a ridiculously expensive product.

No wonder why NFP is so ridiculous.

That was completely uncalled for. E_7 was just offering general advice based on our experience.

 

[bitterhope]

That was completely uncalled for. E_7 was just offering general advice based on our experience.

Thank you for standing up for your wife! It’s good to see a husband care for the well being of his spouse. May God bless your family

 

[StGerardMajella]

Jewish Law forbade many practices and behoved many others in their relationship with God…

Your argument is an old one. Christ did not come to “abolish” the Creator’s laws. He came to renew and strengthen them. This strengthening is found in the Catholic Church in a multitude of ways.

If you take each of the citations you have provided - circumcision, prohibitions against eating pig meat, and prohibitions against cross-dressing - you will be hard pressed to find a single instance where these laws are objectionable from a health, spiritual, or psychological point of view. (You will also be hard pressed to find any citation in Roman Catholic canon law advocating cross-dressing, or eating pig’s meat, for example.)

Take the eating of pig’s meat, for example. We know now scientifically that there are inherent health risk and dangers associated with eating pig’s meat.

While the Church does not promote the laws of kashrut (kosher), the Church does not prohibit them either. In fact, many of our most holy Catholic monks still adhere to a very strict vegetarian diet that prohibits eating meat, including pig’s meat, as a spiritual discipline. The laity are generally not expected to adhere to these prohibitions unless they choose to do so, though some forms of fasting are expected of the laity on certain holy days. That does not negate the benefit and usefulness of these laws from a health and spiritual perspective.

There are valid, scientific and spiritual reasons for circumcision, just as there are valid reasons for a man to avoid cross-dressing as a woman.

All of these laws were given by the Creator to the benefit of their recipients, in an effort to increase their holiness.

If you are simply saying that menstrual sex has some increased health risks and can be distasteful to the sensibilities… I’m quite receptive of that view… but it is not the basis of any Catholic prohibition

You will be hard pressed to find a single Roman Catholic canon law that supports and advocates for marital activity during the menstrual cycle. Historically, the Church considered it to be prohibited. For Christians and Jews that take the Bible seriously, it is still considered to be detrimental to one’s health and spirituality.

And, really, you cannot use the “ceremonial” law argument in this case. There is no “ceremony” associated with abstinence (and celibacy). The Church has long advocated for abstinence in certain situations.

 

[Xantippe]

Your argument is an old one. Christ did not come to “abolish” the Creator’s laws. He came to renew and strengthen them. This strengthening is found in the Catholic Church in a multitude of ways.

If you take each of the citations you have provided - circumcision, prohibitions against eating pig meat, and prohibitions against cross-dressing - you will be hard pressed to find a single instance where these laws are objectionable from a health, spiritual, or psychological point of view. (You will also be hard pressed to find any citation in Roman Catholic canon law advocating cross-dressing, or eating pig’s meat, for example.)

Take the eating of pig’s meat, for example. We know now scientifically that there are inherent health risk and dangers associated with eating pig’s meat.

While the Church does not promote the laws of kashrut (kosher), the Church does not prohibit them either. In fact, many of our most holy Catholic monks still adhere to a very strict vegetarian diet that prohibits eating meat, including pig’s meat, as a spiritual discipline. The laity are generally not expected to adhere to these prohibitions unless they choose to do so, though some forms of fasting are expected of the laity on certain holy days. That does not negate the benefit and usefulness of these laws from a health and spiritual perspective.

There are valid, scientific and spiritual reasons for circumcision, just as there are valid reasons for a man to avoid cross-dressing as a woman.

All of these laws were given by the Creator to the benefit of their recipients, in an effort to increase their holiness.

You will be hard pressed to find a single Roman Catholic canon law that supports and advocates for marital activity during the menstrual cycle. Historically, the Church considered it to be prohibited. For Christians and Jews that take the Bible seriously, it is still considered to be detrimental to one’s health and spirituality.

And, really, you cannot use the “ceremonial” law argument in this case. There is no “ceremony” associated with abstinence (and celibacy). The Church has long advocated for abstinence in certain situations.

If that’s so, why does no Catholic NFP source that I’ve ever seen mention it? You’d think it would come up in talking about Phase 1.

You’re literally the only contemporary Catholic person I’ve ever seen staking this claim.

 

[StGerardMajella]

If that’s so, why does no Catholic NFP source that I’ve ever seen mention it? You’d think it would come up in talking about Phase 1.

If you read many of the writings of our most holy saints, they were quite familiar with each and every one of these laws. Unfortunately, for the average lay Catholic teaching a course in NFP, they are not as apt to be familiar unless they have actively studied their Catholic Bible in detail.

The Old Testament gives very detailed instructions for daily living, and the advice is always spot on. (The Creator gives great advice.)

Our Hebrew Catholics, on the other hand, as ethnic Jews, are very familiar with these laws, and many practice them even to this day. Messianic Jews would also be quite familiar, although most Messianic Jews are not Roman Catholic. Jewish converts to the faith would also be familiar.

Perhaps you have stumbled onto a new niche market for Catholics - Family Planning utilizing God’s commandments. Who would have thunk?

 

[Xantippe]

If you read many of the writings of our most holy saints, they were quite familiar with each and every one of these laws. Unfortunately, for the average lay Catholic teaching a course in NFP, they are not as apt to be familiar unless they have actively studied their Catholic Bible in detail.

The Old Testament gives very detailed instructions for daily living, and the advice is always spot on. (The Creator gives great advice.)

Our Hebrew Catholics, on the other hand, as ethnic Jews, are very familiar with these laws, and many practice them even to this day. Messianic Jews would also be quite familiar, although most Messianic Jews are not Roman Catholic. Jewish converts to the faith would also be familiar.

Perhaps you have stumbled onto a new niche market for Catholics - Family Planning utilizing God’s commandments. Who would have thunk?

Well, as somebody may have mentioned upthread, the Jewish sexual purity system starts marital open season a couple of days before the average ovulation.

Combining NFP with Jewish purity rules (menstruation + 7 days abstinence) would be very onerous as it would automatically eliminate Phase 1 for most women.

 

[bitterhope]

Well, as somebody may have mentioned upthread, the Jewish sexual purity system starts marital open season a couple of days before the average ovulation.

Combining NFP with Jewish purity rules (menstruation + 7 days abstinence) would be very onerous as it would automatically eliminate Phase 1 for most women.

It seems like God ordered His law toward being fruitful and multiplying. I think He mentioned that was His plan.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Just a point to consider, but some women actually ovulate while bleeding. It’s not common, but it happens. If they were not allowed to have sex during their time of bleeding, they could be unnecessarily childless! I sure as heck don’t think the God or the Church would want that!

 

[Convert_in_99]

That was completely uncalled for. E_7 was just offering general advice based on our experience.

You are a great husband! God bless you! We love E_7! I know she has been struggling with finding acceptance here lately. Please reassure her that we enjoy her posts and want her to stick around!

 

[Xantippe]

Just a point to consider, but some women actually ovulate while bleeding. It’s not common, but it happens. If they were not allowed to have sex during their time of bleeding, they could be unnecessarily childless! I sure as heck don’t think the God or the Church would want that!

Apparently, halachic infertility is kind of a big deal:

forward.com/news/157819/for-some-halacha-makes-conceiving-tough/

The religiously approved solution seems to be medicating the heck out of the infertile women rather than budging on the number of days of no bleeding:

"Grazi said that he typically addresses halachic infertility by directing a patient to wear an adhesive patch that delivers estradiol, the natural female sex hormone, just as she begins menstruating. This patch is meant to delay her ovulation until after she goes to the mikveh. If the patch is working but the woman is still having trouble getting pregnant, then Grazi will add one of several medications to stimulate egg development — a potent one-two punch for toppling halachic infertility.

“But in the instances that the patch doesn’t delay a woman’s ovulation, Grazi will take more drastic measures, prescribing a medication called Lupron, which mutes the body’s egg development and ovulation. Then, Grazi will place a woman on a regimen of injectable natural hormones, managing her cycle so that her fertility peaks when she is allowed to have sex with her husband.”

“For halachically infertile couples with an aversion to using hormones, there are other options. One simple fix is to artificially inseminate the woman with her husband’s sperm before she goes to the mikveh. Since the woman is not allowed to have sex with her husband at the time that she is ovulating, insemination will bring his sperm in contact with her egg without the couple actually touching. Rabbis, however, disagree as to whether this is allowed under halachic law. Some Modern Orthodox rabbis are more lenient in their approach to insemination. But other rabbis, particularly those in ultra-Orthodox communities believe that insemination during niddah can cause spiritual harm to the child.”

 

[Convert_in_99]

Apparently, halachic infertility is kind of a big deal:

forward.com/news/157819/for-some-halacha-makes-conceiving-tough/

The religiously approved solution seems to be medicating the heck out of the infertile women rather than budging on the number of days of no bleeding:

"Grazi said that he typically addresses halachic infertility by directing a patient to wear an adhesive patch that delivers estradiol, the natural female sex hormone, just as she begins menstruating. This patch is meant to delay her ovulation until after she goes to the mikveh. If the patch is working but the woman is still having trouble getting pregnant, then Grazi will add one of several medications to stimulate egg development — a potent one-two punch for toppling halachic infertility.

“But in the instances that the patch doesn’t delay a woman’s ovulation, Grazi will take more drastic measures, prescribing a medication called Lupron, which mutes the body’s egg development and ovulation. Then, Grazi will place a woman on a regimen of injectable natural hormones, managing her cycle so that her fertility peaks when she is allowed to have sex with her husband.”

“For halachically infertile couples with an aversion to using hormones, there are other options. One simple fix is to artificially inseminate the woman with her husband’s sperm before she goes to the mikveh. Since the woman is not allowed to have sex with her husband at the time that she is ovulating, insemination will bring his sperm in contact with her egg without the couple actually touching. Rabbis, however, disagree as to whether this is allowed under halachic law. Some Modern Orthodox rabbis are more lenient in their approach to insemination. But other rabbis, particularly those in ultra-Orthodox communities believe that insemination during niddah can cause spiritual harm to the child.”

Um, wow! Just wow. I love our Jewish brothers and sisters, but I’m sure as heck grateful that I don’t have all these extra laws to follow! Thank you Jesus!

 

[1990Domer]

We don’t know the reason why the OP can’t get pregnant right now, and it’s not our decision anyway: the Church quite clearly says that that’s a decision to be left up to the couple.

As just one possibility (and OP, you needn’t answer this if you don’t want to), depending on immigration restrictions in the country she’s now living in, the OP getting pregnant might result in setting back her immigration status, even to the point of legally requiring her to leave the country (and therefore her husband) for the duration of the pregnancy. A pregnant woman with no one to rely on for support and so forth is not in a very good position. A pregnant woman with no health insurance, place to live, way of getting prenatal care, etc is in a very bad place position indeed.

I think the OP wants to avoid pregnancy for now.

 

[Zelie_Louis]

Reminder for everyone to participate with charity toward one another. Thank you for your cooperation.