NFP for selfish reasons

[Bookcat]

This statement is absolutely false. If NFP does not deprive the marital act of the procreative meaning, then why is it used? Because NFP is advertised as being “99% effective in the avoidance of pregnancy - more effective than the pill or condoms”. Indeed, NFP denies the procreative meaning even more than gravely immoral “artificial” methods…just slightly less than homosexual acts, which are always intrinsically disordered.

There’s a good reason why protestants mockingly refer to NFP as “hypocritical Catholic birth control”.

• And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth” (Genesis 1:28)

This is NOT the case. Using NFP avoid is does NOT deprive the marital act of the procreative meaning…on is ABSTAINING when the wife is fertile. one is not acting…one is for the right reasons of course…waiting …

you need to read more good sources on this and on the Church’s teaching.

 

[amgp]

This is NOT the case. Using NFP avoid is does NOT deprive the marital act of the procreative meaning…on is ABSTAINING when the wife is fertile. one is not acting…one is for the right reasons of course…waiting …

Why continue to deny the truth? Aside from the few couples who use NFP to increase their chances of conception by specifically engaging in the marital act when fertility is highest, the vast majority of NFP users just want to have sex without the possibility of procreating. Why else would a married couple only engage in the marital act when they are at least 99 percent sure that they will not get pregnant?

You can make excuses for NFP by saying that “one is not acting”, but that also is a lie. There are a great deal of actions that go into NFP (charting basal body temperature, examining cervical mucus, etc.), and then when the couple has gained this “natural” knowledge after attending numerous NFP classes and studying NFP literature, they choose only to have sex when they know they won’t get pregnant. Call it what you like, but using NFP definitely deprives the procreative meaning to the marital act.

you need to read more good sources on this and on the Church’s teaching.

I’ve read all of the “good sources on this and on the Church’s teaching”. You need to read good sources on basic logic and honesty, and stop insisting that black is white.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Sigh…I guess the only time marital relations are licit are 2-3 days a month during the fertile period. And celibacy after menopause.

 

[that_name]

Please, see the Catechism. Your reason must be just, your health is a just reason.

 

[amgp]

Sigh…I guess the only time marital relations are licit are 2-3 days a month during the fertile period. And celibacy after menopause.

Nice smokescreen, but it also defies logic while attempting to avoid the truth. We’re talking about healthy, fertile couples who study a great deal of scientific research while attending classes, and who also spend numerous cumulative hours collecting and charting their fertility data, and who then consciously go out of their way to deny their natural marital urges, and ONLY engage in relations when the possibility of conception is practically nil. Call it what you like, but there’s nothing natural or “licit” about that.

Of course, if somebody is not “healthy”, that’s a different story.

 

[Bookcat]

Nice smokescreen, but it also defies logic while attempting to avoid the truth. We’re talking about healthy, fertile couples who study a great deal of scientific research while attending classes, and who also spend numerous cumulative hours collecting and charting their fertility data, and who then consciously go out of their way to deny their natural marital urges, and ONLY engage in relations when the possibility of conception is practically nil. Call it what you like, but there’s nothing natural or “licit” about that.

Of course, if somebody is not “healthy”, that’s a different story.

I will go with the Teachings of the Church …

 

[Bookcat]

Please, see the Catechism. Your reason must be just, your health is a just reason.

a just reason according to the Teachings of the Church to avoid via conception via NFP…must be a serious reason.

a serious reason can fit into various kinds…health…economic…etc…

nor does it have to be “life or death”…

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Nice smokescreen, but it also defies logic while attempting to avoid the truth. We’re talking about healthy, fertile couples who study a great deal of scientific research while attending classes, and who also spend numerous cumulative hours collecting and charting their fertility data, and who then consciously go out of their way to deny their natural marital urges, and ONLY engage in relations when the possibility of conception is practically nil. Call it what you like, but there’s nothing natural or “licit” about that.

Of course, if somebody is not “healthy”, that’s a different story.

What is so unnatural about a lot scientific knowledge, a bit of paper, and not having sex? If that is the case I would say that being an engineer or engineering student has got to be the most unnatural and “illicit” enterprise in the world.

 

[PaulinVA]

Nice smokescreen, but it also defies logic while attempting to avoid the truth. We’re talking about healthy, fertile couples who study a great deal of scientific research while attending classes, and who also spend numerous cumulative hours collecting and charting their fertility data, and who then consciously go out of their way to deny their natural marital urges, and ONLY engage in relations when the possibility of conception is practically nil. Call it what you like, but there’s nothing natural or “licit” about that.

Of course, if somebody is not “healthy”, that’s a different story.

Ah, so you are saying that, with a serious reason, the couple can abstain during the fertile period.

Great! I’m glad you are thinking in line with Church teaching.

 

[Bookcat]

Why continue to deny the truth? Aside from the few couples who use NFP to increase their chances of conception by specifically engaging in the marital act when fertility is highest, the vast majority of NFP users just want to have sex without the possibility of procreating. Why else would a married couple only engage in the marital act when they are at least 99 percent sure that they will not get pregnant?

You can make excuses for NFP by saying that “one is not acting”, but that also is a lie. There are a great deal of actions that go into NFP (charting basal body temperature, examining cervical mucus, etc.), and then when the couple has gained this “natural” knowledge after attending numerous NFP classes and studying NFP literature, they choose only to have sex when they know they won’t get pregnant. Call it what you like, but using NFP definitely deprives the procreative meaning to the marital act.

I’ve read all of the “good sources on this and on the Church’s teaching”. You need to read good sources on basic logic and honesty, and stop insisting that black is white.

Deny the truth? sir or madam…we follow the Truth…who is the TRUTH formed a Church and gave her authority to teach…
good day. I follow the Teachings of the Church. which are actually also very reasonable… Faith and reason.

 

[that_name]

a just reason according to the Teachings of the Church to avoid via conception via NFP…must be a serious reason.

a serious reason can fit into various kinds…health…economic…etc…

nor does it have to be “life or death”…

Sigh. Let’s look at the word the Catechism actually uses…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2368

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156

 

[Bookcat]

Sigh. Let’s look at the word the Catechism actually uses…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2368

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children.

DOUBLE sigh.

The Church has repeatedly explained that “just reasons” regarding NFP are when there are serious reasons:

From the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church – approved by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

vatican.va/archive/compen…um-ccc_en.html

From the Compendium of Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church

It lays out that SERIOUS REASONS are needed …and they can fit into different kinds…

(another official doc)

1. The family contributes to the social good in an eminent fashion through responsible motherhood and fatherhood, the spouses’ special participation in God’s work of creation[519]. The weight of this responsibility must not be used as a justification for being selfishly closed but must guide the decisions of the spouses in a generous acceptance of life. “In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised both in the duly pondered and generous decision to have a large family, and in the decision, made for serious reasons and in respect of the moral law, to avoid for a time or even indeterminately a new birth”[520]. The motivations that should guide the couple in exercising responsible motherhood and fatherhood originate in the full recognition of their duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society in a proper hierarchy of values.

vatican.va/roman_curia/po…tt-soc_en.html

The witness of couples who for years have lived in harmony with the plan of the Creator, and who, for proportionately serious reasons, licitly use the methods rightly called “natural,” confirms that it is possible for spouses to live the demands of chastity and of married life with common accord and full self-giving.

vatican.va/roman_curia/po…emecum_en.html

which is from a vatican guide for confessors

From the Encyclical of Pope John Paul II Evangelium Vitae

This happens when the family is generously open to new lives, and when couples maintain an attitude of openness and service to life, even if, for serious reasons and in respect for the moral law, they choose to avoid a new birth for the time being or indefinitely.

the larger quote:

The work of educating in the service of life involves the training of married couples in responsible procreation. In its true meaning, responsible procreation requires couples to be obedient to the Lord’s call and to act as faithful interpreters of his plan. This happens when the family is generously open to new lives, and when couples maintain an attitude of openness and service to life, even if, for serious reasons and in respect for the moral law, they choose to avoid a new birth for the time being or indefinitely. The moral law obliges them in every case to control the impulse of instinct and passion, and to respect the biological laws inscribed in their person. It is precisely this respect which makes legitimate, at the service of responsible procreation, the use of natural methods of regulating fertility. From the scientific point of view, these methods are becoming more and more accurate and make it possible in practice to make choices in harmony with moral values. An honest appraisal of their effectiveness should dispel certain prejudices which are still widely held, and should convince married couples, as well as health-care and social workers, of the importance of proper training in this area. The Church is grateful to those who, with personal sacrifice and often unacknowledged dedication, devote themselves to the study and spread of these methods, as well to the promotion of education in the moral values which they presuppose. 97

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/_INDEX.HTM

BUT AGAIN serious does not have to = life or death…

 

[wolfe05]

Nice smokescreen, but it also defies logic while attempting to avoid the truth. We’re talking about healthy, fertile couples who study a great deal of scientific research while attending classes, and who also spend numerous cumulative hours collecting and charting their fertility data, and who then consciously go out of their way to deny their natural marital urges, and ONLY engage in relations when the possibility of conception is practically nil. Call it what you like, but there’s nothing natural or “licit” about that.

Of course, if somebody is not “healthy”, that’s a different story.

What would you suggest a Catholic married couple to do?

My wife and I use NFP, currently we have no kids and are planning to not have kids until I’m out of graduate school. We feel like if we were to have children before then I would not be able to fulfill my duties as a father and my wife would be similar to a single mother, something I do not want.

Now, the premise to NFP is to be open to life, hence the natural roots of it. God set up the schedule of fertile and non fertile times, we just follow those in full faith that God is there and welcome in our relationship. He is all powerful, and if He believes now is the time for us, we are not stopping Him from performing the miracle. We are open to life, and are completely excited to be parents someday, but following the teachings of the Church and NFP, we know we need to wait just a little longer.

If you have any faith, you know that God can move your heart to follow His will. We can only believe that we are doing His will faithfully. By following NFP, we have been able to see and benefit from the unitive meaning of making love and the unitive meaning of abstaining. Abstinence is a great way to actually get to know your spouse instead of using them for sex whenever you get the urge.

 

[wolfe05]

This statement is absolutely false. If NFP does not deprive the marital act of the procreative meaning, then why is it used? Because NFP is advertised as being “99% effective in the avoidance of pregnancy - more effective than the pill or condoms”. Indeed, NFP denies the procreative meaning even more than gravely immoral “artificial” methods…just slightly less than homosexual acts, which are always intrinsically disordered.

There’s a good reason why protestants mockingly refer to NFP as “hypocritical Catholic birth control”.

• And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth” (Genesis 1:28)

This is a very contraceptive way to look at NFP, and yes, NFP can be used in a contraceptive way. There is no argument there, but the method in and of itself is not contraceptive, only the person using it makes that decision. Must be careful in how you frame this, people make NFP contraceptive, “artificial” methods are contraceptive…that is a big difference.

As for the marketing propaganda, this nation (and world even) is overwhelmingly convinced that contraceptives are the only way a couple can avoid pregnancy. There has to be some marketing draw to at least get people to ask the question.

God created us this way, he made us intelligent, our intelligence helped us find the way He created - sounds like good logic to me.

 

[matilda116]

As for the origanial post you have come here seeking answers and you have recieved so many comments that can lead to confussion. I recommend talk to Jesus, seek time before our Lord, and in the quite whispers He gives us you will find peace with his answer. Your life seems overwhelming from this side of the window and asan out sider looking in it seems as thought you have serious/just resons as to why it would be good to post pone. Each time you and your spouse are call to renew your wedding vows is one more chance to discern if you are being called to have another child, this is the beauty of NFP. Serious discernment with God as to weather or not to bring forth new life. I will pray for you.

As for the poster who called us “hypocritical Catholics” my comment to you is the ends don’t justify the means. If Grandma is in the hospital about to die there are two opptions, allow her to die naturally or pull the plug. Both result in Grandma dying so are both okay? No, one is murder, one is natural. Just like abstaining from intercourse during the fertile times, it is a natural responce. If you don’t want to get burned don’t put your hand in the fire. Its all base on your heart’s intention.
The word procreation, to be for creation. But the question is the creation of what? Of course humans co create with God new human life, but new life also needs to be recognized in the form of the relationship of the couple. My love for my spouse grows stronger every time we are together regardless of weather or not a new baby is created. The strength of our love is a creation from God, so we do fufill the unitive and procreative aspects of intercourse even if we are avoiding a child. Realize we too must be sensitive to a couple who is infertile they too must have the same two aspects of the marriage bed unity and procreation, everytime the come together as husband and wife. Procreation and fruitfulness must also be recognized as love and the out pouring of that love to the community around the scramental marriage. This I believe is the foundation of our society.

 

[kelley_t]

I have taken the time to read all of the posts.

First of all, for the lady who asked the first question, it is a difficult decision. If you were talking with your priest in confession, then assume the council is good as he was acting in persona Christi. If you were asking advice, then prayerfully consider his advice, but know that priests can be wrong, as we ave unfortuately seen. The best way to judge intentions that I have found is to ask whether or not they are done with charity. For example, it is a sin to miss Mass as that is breaking the commandment to keep the Sabbath. Yet as a parent, if you miss Mass to stay home with a sick child, you are not sinning since you are committing an act of charity for your child. God does not ask the impossible of us.

To others who are opposed to NFP, before converting to Catholicism, I too felt that NFP was a lack of trusting in God. But to act with the idea that “God will provide” or “we are trusting in God” even if there are clear reasons as to why one should not behave in that fashion, goes against the very nature of our created beings. God gave us intelligence for a purpose. We are not to act blindly. When we do, we are lacking in the virtue of Prudence. My husband and I acted out of that blind belief that “we are trusting in God”. We did not listen to wise council nor use our God-given brains. We had a home birth when it was clear we should have been in the hospital. In the end, our daughter died due to our decisions. That is something we have to live with. We have since converted and have become very aware of the virtue of Prudence. It is a virtue for a reason.

And please do not assume all couples use NFP simply because they are putting off having children for economic or career oriented reasons. We later used NFP to avoid having another child while we grieved the loss of our baby but needed to come together as a married couple. Now, we are faced with using NFP because it has become increasingly clear that after this my 4th pregnancy, my health would be in danger in having more.

All pregnancies are a blessing but they come with a cost to parents, sometimes health and sometimes through the care that an additional child would require. You cannot know until you’ve experienced it yourself.

 

[dixieagle]

To the OP; honey, relax. There is no reason to think that the situation you have mentioned - three children, one with autism issues - is not darn serious. No wonder you’re burnt out!

No matter what some folks insist, it is NOT Church teaching that we have as many babies as possible. God wants us to take care of the ones we have - and our own physical and mental health - and form our consciences in accord with the Magisterium. It sure sounds to me as if you’ve done that, and any good priest would tell you the same, as would the Pope himself!!!

God bless you, and ease your worries.

 

[taye]

Thanks everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I guess I am being too hard on myself in this regard. Everyone around me (priest, MIL, mom, friends, DH) have been telling me that it isn’t a good idea right now for us to have another one. It’s tough listening to everyone’s counsel when you’re as scrupulous as me. It’s like I’m afraid that God is unhappy with our openess to life and that I will be punished for it. I wish I could really understand how God is merciful. Perfection will never be attained by this poor sinner, or any for that matter!!

In the meantime, I really have to double my efforts to stay away from the morality forums… My doubts began when I started reading the thread about the licitness of NFP. It seems like many people around these forums think you need a life or death reason to avoid pregnancy. If that were the case, you’d be seeing me in a nun habit. And that is NOT a joke!

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I guess I am being too hard on myself in this regard. Everyone around me (priest, MIL, mom, friends, DH) have been telling me that it isn’t a good idea right now for us to have another one. It’s tough listening to everyone’s counsel when you’re as scrupulous as me. It’s like I’m afraid that God is unhappy with our openess to life and that I will be punished for it. I wish I could really understand how God is merciful. Perfection will never be attained by this poor sinner, or any for that matter!!

In the meantime, I really have to double my efforts to stay away from the morality forums… My doubts began when I started reading the thread about the licitness of NFP. It seems like many people around these forums think you need a life or death reason to avoid pregnancy. If that were the case, you’d be seeing me in a nun habit. And that is NOT a joke!

PS: General comment – a person who is making use of the infertile times for the serious reasons (not life or death necessarly) IS being OPEN to LIFE so have no scruple on that count…

 

[exarctly]

I do think that each couple needs to be in prayer and be honest with themselves about what their intentions are. To those who seem to be questioning or comparing NFP to contraception, here is one distinguishing thing I keep in mind. The way that I look at the Churches teaching on sex in marriage is that every time that sex is had it needs to be as open to life as it can possibly be. It may be true that many couples using NFP are using it to avoid pregnancy for a time (and hopefully for just reasons). But every time that they do perform the conjugal act, it is completely as God intended that specific act to be on that day, as God allows them to have sex in that natural state of being. It is entirely different and actually takes discipline than contraception.
To not have sex is not frustrating the moral order because there is no imperative that a couple have sex on all fertile days (or any specified amount, but assumed likely to happen - and if all goes well enough thenn often), though I acknowledge that the call to be open to having a family is one to be taken seriously at the right times. But certainly not the call to pursue children whenever possible. So, I do not see the objection. The important thing is that each sexual act be a full mutually self giving act. Not hat the full self be given at any specified date and time in ones cycle. The reason contraception is wrong (one of many) is that it is a lie. You are not truly giving and sharing all that you have. I suppose one could argue that by abstaining on fertile days you are holding back something as well, but I think this argument is not what the Church intends (or the Church would have made this point clear), and I would only listen to it if the couple were year in and out using NFP with seemingly no important reasons.

I think it is lovely in this day and age where women harm themselves with artificial birth control and possibly have unwanted abortions, that something as natural as NFP exists to prove that God offers us the very best for us. It also requires a certain amount of love and the idea that sex is to be performed in full view of all of its possibilities and not just something we have a right have when and how we want. It helps us see that we are happiest when living with the natural consequence of our actions and not constantly trying to take what is not ours. I like birth control to some sort of eating disorder where a person is trying to eat as much as they want of whatever they want and then accept none of the consequences. But sex during an infertile period is something that happens within the natural state of being. As an earlier poster noted, what about those who are infertile or post menopause.

I can relate to those who are confused because sometimes you want to know for sure that your reasons are just. Is money enough? Especially when you know that God can and does provide. Even though it looks like we can not afford to raise a child, we see even poorer people do it and those couples that have like 10 children seem to be happy.
But at the same time I think that we are called to be prudential, and while somewhat open to taking risks, and that managing and living within a reasonable means is also something that we are called to do as opposed to putting God in a situation where he has to fix something that we should have thought through. I wouldn’t just buy a new house that I couldn’t pay the monthly payments on just because having a house is a good thing.
Still, I know that children are special and that God will provide, so the point is that we need to continue to pray and think and ask to please God in these decisions. And of course money is only one concern. Other issues may also further complicate things.