"NFP = God can make His plan happen"

[thebookofesther]

NFP is not a matter of morals ? That’s news to me.

Are you serious? NFP is not dogmatic by any means our whole conversation is based on morals.

 

[thebookofesther]

I’m just stating the Church’s teaching. You are stating your own opinion. So if you think your opinions are stronger arguments than Church teaching, we’re probably not going to get anywhere in this discussion.

The Church needs to strengthen its posistion, because too many are taking advantage of wording and stretching it to cases that the teaching is clearly not intended.

 

[Rence]

Clearly that’s what your implications were by your unbeliveable questions of God’s lack of involvement. You’re good at making sarcastic faces, but picking up on sarcasm not so much, I guess.

I didn’t have any questions, let alone unbelieveable questions, about God’s ‘lack of involvement’…I guess you must be making more sarcastic comments

 

[mini_me640]

The Church needs to strengthen its posistion, because too many are taking advantage of wording and stretching it to cases that the teaching is clearly not intended.

No, you need to accept the Church’s authority in teaching faith and morals. The idea that you, a young layperson, know better than the Church that Christ founded and entrusted with propagating the faith, is more than a little arrogant. Yes, Church leaders make mistakes, but the Church itself doesn’t teach error. The Church teaches that it is acceptable for couples to use periodic abstinence to space births if the couple prayerfully discerns a serious reason to avoid conception at a particular time. I would say the Church’s position is strong enough.

I think too many are presuming to know other people’s circumstances and faith. The Church that Christ founded leaves it up to individual couples to discern their circumstances, and if they decide they have serious reason, to use NFP to try and avoid conception. If the Church itself does not make pronouncements on what constitutes a serious reason and what doesn’t, how can you know that “too many are taking advantage of wording…”

 

[mini_me640]

Are you serious? **NFP is not dogmatic by any means our whole conversation is based on morals./**QUOTE]

This sentence makes no sense to me. Yes our conversation is based on morals. The Church is able to teach, without error, on matters of faith and morals. NFP in particular is not dogmatic, but the Church’s teaching that couples are allowed to use NFP (or, back in the day, the rhythm method) aka periodic abstinence to space births is a matter of faith and morals, and therefore we must assume the Church is not in error. Certainly we must assume that we as random laypeople do not know better than the Church when it comes to faith and morals.

 

[mini_me640]

Why are you not confident God will hear your prayers?

So should we all quit our jobs and hang out and pray that God will make our mortgage payments and send us food? God works through our efforts as well as through miraculous interventions. He gave us brains, talents, and a Church to guide us. He expects us to use the tools he has given us.

 

[thewanderer]

The problem with claiming that one should not use their reason to determine when to avoid pregnancy and that they should instead “trust in God” is that we are not to put God to the test. Yes, we must have trust in God that He will not give us more than we can handle, however, we must also realize that God gave us rationality for a reason. It is our responsibility to usse our reason to determine our actions. God has given us the ability to know when a couple is fertile and when not.He has also given us the ability to determine whether or not it is prudent to have another child. If a couple knows that they have a real reason to not have children, and know how to tell when the wife is fertile, it is a matter of testing God to ignore what they have discerned through their God-given intellect and to demand that God act in a supernatural way to prevent them from becoming pregnant when they could have acted in a natural way to achieve the same end. One must not test God.

 

[FullOfThought]

NFP is not pure trust in the Lord. Having relations with your spouse on your day of fertility and asking God for no child is pure trust.

Otherwise, your pure trust in the Lord has become pure trust in science with just a little bit more trust than contraception. contraceptivetechnology.org/table.html

You just assumed that people who practice NFP don’t do that. We do.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

"“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)

Your words as your faith would sink as a rock on top of water, just as Peter sank walking towards Christ on water, because he did not believe in the true power of God.

thebookofesther, of course this is true, that God knew us before we were in the womb, He knows how many hairs are on our head, He has always known everything about us…
Don’t look at NFP as an alternative to being generous in having kids and trusting in God that He will provide, we should be open to kids and trust in Him that He will provide, we need to do this; we cannot try to have everything in our hands to the point that we think we don’t need Him. Look at it as NFP allowing couple that would have otherwise had to abstain completely to be able to have sex. Sex is good, it is an important part of marriage. Some people may be in situations (like the example of severe health reasons) where a couple has prayerfully discerned the need to avoid. This is where NFP comes in. It allows a couple to participate in the sexual act without mutilating it, leaving it whole as it should be. It is good for a married couple to be able to demonstrate their love for each other through sex. We do have to seek His will. though. It is possible to misuse NFP to avoid children when He wanted us to be more generous and receive more children. I do disagree with the notion that some people espouse, that it is nearly impossible to misuse NFP (now, the Church has never said this, but it is the opinion of some people).

The Church is very wise, and in Her wisdom She has said that NFP is a moral way to avoid having children when unselfish serious/just/grave reasons arise. We should not assume we know better than the Church, we are called to obedience, (and honestly, I think if we study the teachings of the Church regarding sexuality we will come to understand more how NFP can be a beautiful thing in which a couple that has discerned the need to avoid can use God’s design for fertility and for marriage, and trust in God while avoiding).