NFP Impossibilities, Anxiety, and Masturbation

[Turtle22]

Hi all,

Long time reader, first time poster on here.

I’m a senior in college and I have a girlfriend who I love very much. She will (hopefully) become in full communion with the Church in the coming year. Lately, we have been thinking about the future, and naturally, this revolves discussing proper sexual intimacy within marriage.

In discussing NFP, my girlfriend has expressed great concern about her fertility which might make it impossible for us to avoid pregnancies. We have reason to believe that God has blessed her with FANTASTIC FERTILITY. For example, apparently my girlfriend has the exact type of reproductive characteristics of her mother. EVERY TIME her parents had unprotected sex they conceived a child. EVERY TIME!

Has anyone here ever heard of someone being so fertile that there isn’t ANY TIME outside of 1-2 days when the period occurs in which pregnancy can’t occur? Even still, I’ve heard that sperm can live up to 72 hours after sex, so essentially is it possible that someone can be ALWAYS fertile?

Even if she isn’t always fertile, there are issues with my girlfriend’s period. Apparently it is extremely irregular. Recently, for no real reason it came late a week. Also, she has told me that if she thinks about it enough, she can make her period come (early, I believe). Are there NFP techniques that can be used that can compensate for this?

So, right now, granted without much education on NFP techniques, we get the feeling that there might rarely be times we would be able to have sex without having a child conceived. We both think it would be sexually frustrating to only have sex 3-6 times in her age-bearing years.

Also, my girlfriend suffers from chronic anxiety issues. This is the type of anxiety that doesn’t go away after running around the block a few times. She has also been diagnosed with OCD. Economically, as of right now, she is not able to afford therapy and/or medication to help resolve her anxiety. In coming years, if we get married, I’m sure we’ll be in sounder economic status to afford therapy, but she has great worries about the side effects of medication. One of the reasons I mention anxiety issues is that if the 1-2 times we would be able to have sex each month are STILL high risk events for conception, the anxiety will be quite astounding and make the experience extremely not gratifying and could possibly even HURT the unity of our relationship…which is something that sex is supposed to help, I thought. I also suffer from anxiety issues and have suffered bouts of scrupulosity and have some OCD tendencies, but perhaps not on the same level as her.

So, she brought up the possibility of oral sex from time to time as a way of unifying us in a way that will eliminate this anxiety of bearing children when we are not psychologically/economically capable supporting them at the time. This was brought up because I mentioned to her that I could indeed help bring her to climax after the marital act if she had not experienced an orgasm during it. She then asked about the possibility of me helping her achieve orgasm outside of us actually having sex because of the great anxiety she would have of conceiving a child when we would not be ready, despite the fact that we want to unite sexually.

Now, immediately I thought this could not be a possibility, because this is essentially a form of masturbation, something I struggled with immensely growing up, but something I managed to kick around the age of 14:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

However, the very next line of the Catechism notes something I’m curious about:

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

Certainly, we both experience (with my girlfriend to a greater extent) “conditions of anxiety” and perhaps the “psychological or social factors.”

My girlfriend has said to me that she would even be alright with simply NFP to plan our potential future family if we got married and avoided anything outside of the marital act IF she essentially was normal. BUT her anxiety issues and out of control (yet happily productive) fertility (which actually CAUSES MORE ANXIETY) has put us in a rut!

Where do I go from here?

Your advice and prayers would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Ron_Conte]

It is not true that your girlfriend is so fertile that she will acheive a pregnancy regardless of where she is in her monthly cycle. This is not possible given the reproductive physiology of the human person. The claim about her mother may be an exaggerated claim, an erroneous claim, or a mere coincidence if she had ‘unprotected sex’ only a few times.

You can use NFP effectively, there are a number of different types and they are all very effective.

Unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always immoral. What the Catechism says about masturbation is meant to indicate that sometimes an objective mortal sin has reduced culpability due to various factors. But if you know that an act is an objective mortal sin, and you nevertheless choose to commit that sin with full knowledge and deliberation, then it is an actual mortal sin, causing a loss of the state of grace, deserving of eternal punishment unless you repent. So one cannot plan to use unnatural sexual acts in marriage on the excuse of anxiety and other issues.

 

[StCsDavid]

You may do well to check out NFP in greater detail. It’s not the NFP of your parent’s generation.

Second, at the risk of sounding uncharitable, is it wise to marry someone who is experiencing such severe anxiety and OCD? It’s not that those conditions are some kind of stain on her character; however, there is the issue of those entering into marriage having the capacity to give themselves freely. From what you describe, this may not be possible for your girlfriend at this time. Something to think about before you pop the question.

 

[Turtle22]

Thanks for the replies!

Ron Conte and StCsDavid - I am very very thankful for your encouragement about the applicability of NFP for our situation. Much research will be done on my end about this.

However,

Ron Conte, I was wondering if you could help me clarify how “anxiety” being a factor of lessening the culpability of masturbation is not applicable in our case. I guess I’m just confused on how our situation does not include these “conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.” Are we talking about a different anxiety here?

StCsDavid, I know your intentions were probably good, but my girlfriend has the link to this thread and seeing your reply quite frankly hurt both of us. I know you say her condition isn’t hurting her character, but saying that her condition makes her unworthy of marriage just plain hurts. I almost appreciate the fact that I have my own (albeit less intense) issues with anxiety so that I can relate. It’s like a cross we mutually bear.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Learn more about NFP and about the female reproductive cycle:

nfpandmore.org online learning for the sympto-thermal method (that’s one of three different methods, creightonmodel.com medical model, mucous only
boma-usa.org, mucous only
ccli.org, symptothermal
marquette.edu/nursing/NFP/ any of the above with the addition of a fertility monitor). NFP can be used by women with irregular cycles and if you are motivated by serious reasons, NFP can have a high rate of effectiveness.

For the other issues, I’d suggest getting counsel from a good, Holy Priest…we should always strive to avoid sin and not make excuses, though…

 

[StCsDavid]

StCsDavid, I know your intentions were probably good, but my girlfriend has the link to this thread and seeing your reply quite frankly hurt both of us. I know you say her condition isn’t hurting her character, but saying that her condition makes her unworthy of marriage just plain hurts. I almost appreciate the fact that I have my own (albeit less intense) issues with anxiety so that I can relate. It’s like a cross we mutually bear.

My apologies if I hurt your feelings. I wish you both well and will keep you in my prayers this evening.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Ron Conte, I was wondering if you could help me clarify how “anxiety” being a factor of lessening the culpability of masturbation is not applicable in our case. I guess I’m just confused on how our situation does not include these “conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.” Are we talking about a different anxiety here?

For persons who do not know that masturbation is an objective mortal sin, but perhaps do realize that it is wrong to some extent, culpability can be reduced by various factors.

However, it is always an actual mortal sin when the individual fully realizes that the act is gravely immoral, and freely chooses with full deliberation to do the act. Consider the same idea applied to other sins, such as bank robbery. No one would be free from the guilt of the crime of bank robbery because they had anxiety or OCD. So you cannot knowingly choose with full deliberation the sin of masturbation or of oral sex or of some other gravely immoral act based on your problems with anxiety or OCD.

 

[PennitentMan]

Second, at the risk of sounding uncharitable, is it wise to marry someone who is experiencing such severe anxiety and OCD?

Oh that’s cold, man. Ruthless and cold. Wow. How dare you even say that?

 

[manualman]

You are doing the smartest thing in the world by looking into NFP NOW, while you are not sexually active.

I’d suggest the Billing Method of NFP as it is utterly unreliant on cycle lengths and temperatures. She’ll have to learn to deal with the ‘ewww’ factor of checking her mucus daily and to learn if cold medicines mess with her mucus symptoms. But NOW is a great time to learn these things since you don’t have to give up intimacy for the learning curve.

Those who become expert at reading their cycle BEFORE marriage and never mess up their system with pills and other foreign matter (even tampons can cause irritations that make observations harder) usually have no problem discerning theri fertility. Those who try to learn after getting married and using ABC for a while struggle horribly and anxiously.

Learn now!

 

[bugz2007]

Oh that’s cold, man. Ruthless and cold. Wow. How dare you even say that?

I don’t think he intended to be cold or cruel. In fact, in some ways I would agree. However, that is not to say I don’t think she or they should ever be married!

The concern that stands out to me in regards to OCD is that it remains untreated. I think the greatest care should be taken to provide her with the opportunity for care before introducing potentially harmful anxiety into her life, the sort that marriage, and, as has been stated by the OP himself, sexual relations where great fertility may be a concern. Having been the product of a marriage where my mother’s mental health was not addressed prior to marriage and motherhood, I know how difficult and damaging to the marital relationship such concerns can be.

My advice to the OP and his dear girlfriend is to focus on making sure you are both as prepared as you can be, emotionally and mentally, for such a commitment. This may involve providing treatment before a marriage takes place.

 

[rwoehmke]

StCsDavid, I know your intentions were probably good, but my girlfriend has the link to this thread and seeing your reply quite frankly hurt both of us. I know you say her condition isn’t hurting her character, but saying that her condition makes her unworthy of marriage just plain hurts. I almost appreciate the fact that I have my own (albeit less intense) issues with anxiety so that I can relate. It’s like a cross we mutually bear.

I didn’t understand the comment as a negative, but merely a warning that such a high state of anxiety and OCD might be enough to temper the capability of ones ability to make a valid vow of marriage. No one is saying that it defintely is, but it is something else to be anxious about. Its got nothing to do with unworthiness.

 

[kage_ar]

Prayers for both of you. It seems very inappropriate for your girlfriend’s mother to have told her such intimate details, and it does sound like a bit of hyperbole on the part of her mother. Perhaps a sort of “cautionary tale” to prevent her daughter from having sex before marriage OR even to push them toward birth control.

Many prayers, and do find a good counselor.

 

[teachccd]

You may do well to check out NFP in greater detail. It’s not the NFP of your parent’s generation.

Second, at the risk of sounding uncharitable, is it wise to marry someone who is experiencing such severe anxiety and OCD? It’s not that those conditions are some kind of stain on her character; however, there is the issue of those entering into marriage having the capacity to give themselves freely. From what you describe, this may not be possible for your girlfriend at this time. Something to think about before you pop the question.

As a person who suffers with anxiety, I know that you should investigate this condition before you exhibit such ignorance. I will pray for you and you need to thank the good Lord that you do not have severe anxiety or OCD. You are very blessed…teachccd

 

[StCsDavid]

I didn’t understand the comment as a negative, but merely a warning that such a high state of anxiety and OCD might be enough to temper the capability of ones ability to make a valid vow of marriage. No one is saying that it defintely is, but it is something else to be anxious about. Its got nothing to do with unworthiness.

Such was the message I was trying to convey. I rechecked my post, and didn’t think it implied “unworthiness,” but rather simply something to consider. One of the questions our pastor has couples consider is what does it mean to give oneself “freely” in marriage? If there is a significant impediment of any kind, then one should honestly assess if a gift of total self can be freely made. It’s not a forever statement, or an unworthiness statement, but rather a getting prepared to be in a place where one can make such a gift.

As to keeping me in your prayers, I thank you. A cold, ignorant sinner like myself needs all the help he can get.

 

[choose_to_love]

Turtle, why do you think your gf’s fertility is exactly the same as her mother’s? Why is it “out of control”? What “reproductive characteristics” are you talking about, and why do you think they have any predictive qualities regarding her (and by implication, your) fertility? What if your fertility, for lack of a better term, is vastly different from her father’s? That is, what if her mom & pop were particularly compatible (if there even is such a phenomenon - - I’m not saying there isn’t, I’m saying I don’t know). I guess my initial point here is that you may be getting worried about something for which there is no objective or empirical evidence to support your premise.

Part two, if I recall correctly, eggs are only viable for 24-48 hours at most, and the hardiest of hardy sperm under ideal conditions (your gf’s mom & pop?) can live 5 days, with, as I believe you mentioned, 72 hours as much more typical. So you can see there is much more than one or two days per month in which the female is infertile. Granted, you have to abstain for longer than the 24 -48 hours the egg is viable, but modern methods of fertility awareness are very good at p(name removed by moderator)ointing ovulation.

I would advise to take a class in NFP if you can (many dioceses will only allow engaged couples, but perhaps an exception would be made for those seriously discerning marriage, which makes sense) because then you will have a live person to follow up with for the nuts and bolts questions regarding reading her signs of fertility.

Second, perhaps something like Kimberley Hahn’s “Life-Giving Love” or Christopher West’s “Good News about Sex & Marriage” would be a valuable read for the two of you. Book date - - read it to each other and talk about it!

Seriously though, while I am humbled by our design and capability to be co-creators of new life with our Lord through our knowledge of our fertility, and while I feel empowered and think it’s awesome the our Lord trusts and entrusts us with this great responsibility, if there is one thing the NFP journey that my bride and I are on has shown, it’s that one should not try to control too much and not leave room for God (that, and God will not be outdone in generosity). His plan will be great for you! The NFP instruction will give you the physical, but you and your girlfriend need to work out the spiritual side.

 

[sacredcello]

Christopher West’s “Good News about Sex & Marriage” would be a valuable read for the two of you. Book date - - read it to each other and talk about it!

Overall, this is a good book, but it is not free from error. On p. 90-91, West talks about how it is acceptable and even loving for a man to bring his wife to climax through masturbating her if it is within the context of intercourse. This is contrary to Church teaching, as masturbation is always objectively evil.

Good luck dealing with your girlfriend’s parents. The new methods of NFP are far more effective than the old rhythm method which is probably what they using. They may also be exaggerating. Nevertheless, it is really a private matter between them. Read up on NFP, and you’ll have a lot more confidence.

 

[bugz2007]

Overall, this is a good book, but it is not free from error. On p. 90-91, West talks about how it is acceptable and even loving for a man to bring his wife to climax through masturbating her if it is within the context of intercourse. This is contrary to Church teaching, as masturbation is always objectively evil.

While I agree we should be careful to accept such things as free from error, I feel the need to point out that this issue is not as cut and dry as you would say. Yes, masturbation outside of marriage is certainly intrinsically disordered and objectively evil, as it is sought completely outside of intercourse. I find it hard to believe that a man acting as such would always be anything but loving. The Catechism reads :

‘By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”’

I would argue that such actions between a husband and wife are not always performed just for the wife to derive pleasure. I’m fairly certain there’s a comfort aspect to it, as well. Besides, when correctly ordered, deriving pleasure is not entirely a bad thing.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Overall, this is a good book, but it is not free from error. On p. 90-91, West talks about how it is acceptable and even loving for a man to bring his wife to climax through masturbating her if it is within the context of intercourse. This is contrary to Church teaching, as masturbation is always objectively evil.

Good luck dealing with your girlfriend’s parents. The new methods of NFP are far more effective than the old rhythm method which is probably what they using. They may also be exaggerating. Nevertheless, it is really a private matter between them. Read up on NFP, and you’ll have a lot more confidence.

Without getting to graphic here, hmmm, some women can only climax with manual stimulation. This is NOT masturbation, it is allowing the woman to enjoy the marital embrace fully, just as the husband has but this should happen in the context of the sexual act…

 

[sacredcello]

Without getting to graphic here, hmmm, some women can only climax with manual stimulation. This is NOT masturbation, it is allowing the woman to enjoy the marital embrace fully, just as the husband has but this should happen in the context of the sexual act…

Yes, I understand, as I am one of these women, which I found out when I was previously married. That marriage was declared null and now (10 years later) I am preparing for marriage in January. The Christopher West book has been a blessing, until I learned that masturbation is never acceptable, even in the context of the marital embrace.

We are called to take up our cross each day, and this is what I intend to do. Unfortunately, as we discovered on our Engaged Encounter, there are many heretical views that are being spread by well-meaning couples (with seven children!) who lead these retreats and priests. A person may be well-meaning and still be spreading falsehood. Since I am a convert to the faith (from the Episcopal church), I am very familiar with this sort of thing.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Yes, I understand, as I am one of these women, which I found out when I was previously married. That marriage was declared null and now (10 years later) I am preparing for marriage in January. The Christopher West book has been a blessing, until I learned that masturbation is never acceptable, even in the context of the marital embrace.

We are called to take up our cross each day, and this is what I intend to do. Unfortunately, as we discovered on our Engaged Encounter, there are many heretical views that are being spread by well-meaning couples (with seven children!) who lead these retreats and priests. A person may be well-meaning and still be spreading falsehood. Since I am a convert to the faith (from the Episcopal church), I am very familiar with this sort of thing.

But this is NOT masturbation. Given the definition in the catechism:
<<2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure>> Heck that’s what sex IS–there’s more to the definition than just deliberate stimulation…I don’t know that I can explain it here, however, you should find a good priest who can help you. I really don’t think that the Christopher West book is out of line at ALL. I’m also a convert and study, study, study. I seem to remember a Pope John Paul quote about this, but I’m having trouble finding it…