NFP Impossibilities, Anxiety, and Masturbation

[GratefulDad]

But this is NOT masturbation. Given the definition in the catechism:
<<2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure>> Heck that’s what sex IS–there’s more to the definition than just deliberate stimulation…I don’t know that I can explain it here, however, you should find a good priest who can help you. I really don’t think that the Christopher West book is out of line at ALL. I’m also a convert and study, study, study. I seem to remember a Pope John Paul quote about this, but I’m having trouble finding it…

Check this:
"John Paul II also says that if the only reason a couple is having sex is to transmit life, then they may be in danger of using each other rather than loving each other (see Love & Responsibility p. 233).

Also, John Paul describes the “beatifying experience” of conjugal union as a foretaste of the joys of heaven (see TB, Dec 16, 1981 and Jan 13, 1982). In Love & Responsibility, by his detailed discussion of the husband’s responsibility - out of authentic love for his wife - to see that she achieves sexual climax (see Love & Responsibility pp. 270-278)."

 

[Jennifer_J]

Check this:
"John Paul II also says that if the only reason a couple is having sex is to transmit life, then they may be in danger of using each other rather than loving each other (see Love & Responsibility p. 233).

Also, John Paul describes the “beatifying experience” of conjugal union as a foretaste of the joys of heaven (see TB, Dec 16, 1981 and Jan 13, 1982). In Love & Responsibility, by his detailed discussion of the husband’s responsibility - out of authentic love for his wife - to see that she achieves sexual climax (see Love & Responsibility pp. 270-278)."

Thank you, that’s exactly what I was looking for. What a joyless “activity” it would be if a husband was not allowed to “prepare” his wife or if every time she was denied the full expression of the act!!! I can’t even imagine. To say that touching each other is sinful within the marital embrace is well, it’s just weird in my opinion! A woman is just not “ready” for wham! bam! thank you m’am. I think that is a very distorted view of sex and not one the Church would endorse. Seek the advice of a holy and orthadox priest in this matter, please. There is NO need for sex to not be pleasurable for both the man AND the woman!!

 

[GratefulDad]

Came across this book the other day from The Pastoral Institute

exceptionalmarriages.com/book7.htm

Excerpt from:
Holy Sex!
A Catholic Guide to Toe-Curling, Mind-Blowing, Infallible Loving

Introduction:
Holy Sex
Can You Handle the Truth?

A fruitful kiss, this, and wonderful for its astounding kindness, which does not press mouth to mouth but unites God with humanity.
~St Bernard of Clairvaux, On the Song of Songs

What if everything you thought you knew about sex was wrong?

In Holy Sex! you will discover what it takes to celebrate a toe-curling, eye-popping, mind blowing, deeply spiritual and profoundly sacramental sexuality; a sexual relationship that is both fully sensual and fully equipped to move beyond sensuality so that it can become an authentically transformative, spiritual encounter. Heaven will be wedded to earth as you and your spouse walk the path toward becoming Infallible Lovers–the kind of lovers who can infuse their marital lives with a passion that reaches biblical proportions. Literally.

If these sound like big promises, they are meant to be. By the end of this book, you and your beloved will know how to create a passion that will make the angels smile and the neighbors sick with jealousy.

Liar, Liar…

Most people believe the lie that Christians, and Catholic Christians in particular, have a dim, ignorant, and pleasure killing view of sex. Nothing could be further from the truth! Not only can faithful Christian couples experience a sexual life that could make even the most jaded pagan jealous, but even more remarkably, Christian lovers are virtually commanded by God and their Faith to do so! If this comes as a surprise to you, you’re not alone. Most couples have bought the lies that keep them from their passionate inheritance. Most people think that only secular sexperts or ancient, moldering pagan mystics have anything to teach the world about sex. Most people have never encountered the truth, the beauty, the goodness and the vitality that is the mystical Christian spirituality of sex or the practical wisdom it imparts to those couples willing to seek it. Now you can know the truth, and the truth will set your love free.

In my capacity as a talk radio psychotherapist and author of many books on marriage and family life, I am regularly invited to give workshops on sex and marriage. I have shared many of the principles revealed in this book with audiences across the country. Here are some examples of the feedback I’ve gotten from my encounters with couples across the country.

“Why didn’t anyone tell me this before? You really opened my eyes. Thank you for showing us what marital love could be and giving us the tools to make it happen.” Erin. Buffalo, NY.

“Before I heard you, I thought good Christians were supposed to be ashamed of their sexuality. Thank you for showing me the truth. I can’t wait to put your suggestions into practice. My husband isn’t going to know what hit him!” Renee. Ann Arbor, MI.

“This was wonderful. Faithful and practical! We’re going to remember this as the weekend that changed our marriage. I’ve been married 30 years, but you opened up a whole new world for us.” Matt. Chicago, Il.
.
.

.

 

[sacredcello]

Came across this book the other day from The Pastoral Institute

exceptionalmarriages.com/book7.htm

Excerpt from:
Holy Sex!
A Catholic Guide to Toe-Curling, Mind-Blowing, Infallible Loving

I own two, and have read all three of the books recommended here, including Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla. My dear FH and I are not in danger of using each other in order to have children, since we will be needing to use NFP for several reasons. So, lovemaking will be for joy and unity.

It is estimated that 95% of American Catholics are using artificial birth control, so our parish priests are dealing with this problem. Unfortunately, many good priests have been influenced by dissenting laypeople when it comes to sexual morals within marriage.

A purely speculative thought on my part is this: if, with God all things are possible, could he not bring about a proper and joyful fulfillment of the marital embrace during sexual intercourse without having to resort to masturbation? Well, yes. But, why are some women capable of climax during intercourse and others are not? There is no connection between the character or virtue of the woman and her ability to attain this. So, why the discrepancy? Only God knows why things are in this fallen and disordered world.

Perhaps the Miracle will bring about this necessary healing for those who seek God. I’ll say no more, as discussion is not permitted in this forum.

 

[Jennifer_J]

I own two, and have read all three of the books recommended here, including Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla. My dear FH and I are not in danger of using each other in order to have children, since we will be needing to use NFP for several reasons. So, lovemaking will be for joy and unity.

It is estimated that 95% of American Catholics are using artificial birth control, so our parish priests are dealing with this problem. Unfortunately, many good priests have been influenced by dissenting laypeople when it comes to sexual morals within marriage.

A purely speculative thought on my part is this: if, with God all things are possible, could he not bring about a proper and joyful fulfillment of the marital embrace during sexual intercourse without having to resort to masturbation? Well, yes. But, why are some women capable of climax during intercourse and others are not? There is no connection between the character or virtue of the woman and her ability to attain this. So, why the discrepancy? Only God knows why things are in this fallen and disordered world.

Perhaps the Miracle will bring about this necessary healing for those who seek God. I’ll say no more, as discussion is not permitted in this forum.

Often it’s a physical issue or even the way the “parts” fit together. Again, it’s not masturbation to allow the woman to be prepared or to be fulfilled. I don’t understand why a man may be fulfilled but it’s sinful for the woman to achieve completion? The Catholic Church isn’t puritanical.

I’m also not sure why discussion isn’t allowed, aren’t we discussing the issue?

 

[sacredcello]

Often it’s a physical issue or even the way the “parts” fit together. Again, it’s not masturbation to allow the woman to be prepared or to be fulfilled. I don’t understand why a man may be fulfilled but it’s sinful for the woman to achieve completion? The Catholic Church isn’t puritanical.

I’m also not sure why discussion isn’t allowed, aren’t we discussing the issue?

I understand completely. My mother has been on a life-long quest to understand all of this, as she was unable to achieve fulfillment until the 5th year of marriage, and then only by resorting to unnatural means. Now in her 60’s, she is angry with God for making us this way. She is definitely not a puritan, having been raised an Episcopalian, where homosexuals are ordained priests. But, she rightly asks, why don’t the parts fit together? I don’t have the answer. My thought is that we live in a disordered world, where even our anatomy is not as it was intended by God. My speculation is that this may be healed at the time of the Miracle, which follows the Warning. Fatima and Lourdes are approved for discussion on this board, but others are not. So, I want to be discreet.

 

[Jennifer_J]

I understand completely. My mother has been on a life-long quest to understand all of this, as she was unable to achieve fulfillment until the 5th year of marriage, and then only by resorting to unnatural means. Now in her 60’s, she is angry with God for making us this way. She is definitely not a puritan, having been raised an Episcopalian, where homosexuals are ordained priests. But, she rightly asks, why don’t the parts fit together? I don’t have the answer. My thought is that we live in a disordered world, where even our anatomy is not as it was intended by God. My speculation is that this may be healed at the time of the Miracle, which follows the Warning. Fatima and Lourdes are approved for discussion on this board, but others are not. So, I want to be discreet.

Ahh, gotcha.Sorry you lost me for a minute, but that happens a lot with me, lately!

It’s true that our world is fallen and things don’t always work properly. I don’t have the answers, I just do the best I can with the info I have. As a convert as well, I’ve studied as much as I can and hope that both dh and I understand and apply the teachings of the Church correctly. I guess I just don’t see the inherent evil of touching each other during the marital embrace. To touch each other via masterbation and not complete the act in the intended way would be sinful, but to touch each other and then to complete the act so that it’s procreative (ie ordered toward procreation) wouldn’t be sinful. That’s my understanding anyway.

 

[sacredcello]

Ahh, gotcha.Sorry you lost me for a minute, but that happens a lot with me, lately!

It’s true that our world is fallen and things don’t always work properly. I don’t have the answers, I just do the best I can with the info I have. As a convert as well, I’ve studied as much as I can and hope that both dh and I understand and apply the teachings of the Church correctly. I guess I just don’t see the inherent evil of touching each other during the marital embrace. To touch each other via masterbation and not complete the act in the intended way would be sinful, but to touch each other and then to complete the act so that it’s procreative (ie ordered toward procreation) wouldn’t be sinful. That’s my understanding anyway.

Since I am a convert, I am seeking the spiritual graces I need in living out the fullness of the Church’s teachings. I believe that Jesus can free us from habitual sin, through the sacraments, prayer, penance and study. He did not come to affirm us in our fallen state, but this is how many Protestant Christians interpret the grace of God.

May God bless you and dh and your six dear ones.

 

[bugz2007]

Ahh, gotcha.Sorry you lost me for a minute, but that happens a lot with me, lately!

It’s true that our world is fallen and things don’t always work properly. I don’t have the answers, I just do the best I can with the info I have. As a convert as well, I’ve studied as much as I can and hope that both dh and I understand and apply the teachings of the Church correctly. I guess I just don’t see the inherent evil of touching each other during the marital embrace. To touch each other via masterbation and not complete the act in the intended way would be sinful, but to touch each other and then to complete the act so that it’s procreative (ie ordered toward procreation) wouldn’t be sinful. That’s my understanding anyway.

The way I have come to understand it is that the ideal is for both parties to reach completion in the same fashion. The even greater ideal is for each of them to even reach that point at the same time. We should always strive for that ideal. Thus, intentional manual stimulation of the woman to climax prior to the completion of the marital act would possibly be sinful. However, manual stimulation prior in order to aid in reaching the ideal of mutual satisfaction or the greater ideal of mutual climax would simply be foreplay. And, if for some reason, these ideals are not realized, the only loving thing to do would be for husband to aid his wife to achieve resolution quickly, rather than suffer the remnants of extreme arousal.

 

[bilop]

Overall, this is a good book, but it is not free from error. On p. 90-91, West talks about how it is acceptable and even loving for a man to bring his wife to climax through masturbating her if it is within the context of intercourse. This is contrary to Church teaching, as masturbation is always objectively evil.

Good luck dealing with your girlfriend’s parents. The new methods of NFP are far more effective than the old rhythm method which is probably what they using. They may also be exaggerating. Nevertheless, it is really a private matter between them. Read up on NFP, and you’ll have a lot more confidence.

Others have already commented on the admissability of manual stimulation as part of intercourse, and I agree.

The point I wanted to make is that since this book has the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat we can be sure it does not err in areas of faith and morals, i.e. it does not contradict the Church’s teachings.

God Bless