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CatholicofAgora
Guest
I think I have the reasoning down somewhat, but I’m going to make a web chart and come back to this. 
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Em_in_FL
Guest
Eh… I can play in technicalities…Em_in_FL, I understand this stuff quite well.
But there is a good argument for condoms. Even if you read the CCC.
NFP does this 99.9% effectively. Condoms only 85%. Thus, condoms do not render procreation impossible.
Being selfish in a sexual act is independent of using condoms (or NFP).
And, responsible parenthood and the principles of NFP are still upheld if condoms are used responsibly and the couple is always seeking God’s will. I would also say that abstaining on fertile days is more of a positive refusal to be open to life than having sex with a condom on fertile days.
PS: We have never used a condom or any other form of artificial contraception… Based on my knowledge of NFP and the CCC, my argument has plenty of ground. Now with experience, it makes more sense.
CCC:
Condoms DO “propose” to render procreation impossible… and they work 85% of the time.
But the proposal for it’s intended use… yeah, still falls into that category.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
And like agapewolf said… you only “render” procreation impossible if sex is taking place.
You have to “render” something… not having sex gives you nothing to render.
You have to “render” something… not having sex gives you nothing to render.
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on_the_hill
Guest
Question:Eh… I can play in technicalities…
CCC:
Condoms DO “propose” to render procreation impossible… and they work 85% of the time.
But the proposal for it’s intended use… yeah, still falls into that category.
When condoms work 85% of the time, does that mean: a) if I use a condom 100 times, 15 of those times will result in pregnancy (on average); b) each time I use a condom there is a 15% chance it will fail to prevent pregnancy (on average); c) if 100 men use a condom, 15 of them will get it wrong (on average).
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whm
Guest
Depends on who compiled the statistic. I believe these statistics are based on the number of pregnancies per year for those utilizing the method being measured.
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agapewolf
Guest
Also, keep in mind, condoms get credit for preventing pregnancy, even though most of the time she couldn’t have gotten pregnant anyway due to natural infertile times.
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PaulGH
Guest
I think it means that if a healthy, fertile couple uses condoms consistently every time they are intimate for an entire year, and they do not use any other method to prevent pregnancy, then there is a 15% chance of the woman becoming pregnant at some point during the year. (Though I don’t know if 15% is the actual correct number; I am just using the number that you quoted.)
However, there is also the issue of whether the number is for perfect use or for typical use. Perfect use assumes that the couple always uses condoms and always uses them correctly, with no exceptions. Typical use means that the couple intends to use condoms every time, but maybe they do use them perfectly, or maybe they occasionally get lazy and omit the condom, or apply the condom incorrectly. Obviously, the pregnancy rate will be higher with typical use than with perfect use, for any method of contraception (and for NFP too).
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twoangels
Guest
Before we got married, we were very enthuastic about the Church’s teaching against contraceptives. The “Totally, free, faithfully and fruitfully” sounded absolutely beautiful. I was fully convinced NFP would improve our marriage and lower our chances of divorce.
In practice, it didn’t feel like this. We argued. We questioned our faith. However, through time, a theme came up. I had difficulty trusting men to love me and overall was suspecious every man’s sexual drive might motivate him to disregard a woman’s physical, mental and emotional needs. I feared ending up over my head. Meanwhile, he had difficulty trusting someone could really desire him. As such, my attitude toward abstinence was always questioned and scrutnized. It always came down to “You really don’t want to be with me, do you? I disgust you.”
Both of our attitudes fed into each other. NFP brought these issues to the forefront and made us discuss them. As we’ve come to understand, communicate and trust each other more, the “strain” of NFP has mostly gone away.
In the end, the NFP chart is like the weather forecast. Should we go on a picnic? Should we go swimming? Should we do something indoors? We, also, don’t seem to obsess about our infertile time anymore. It has meant we might go through longer stretches of abstinence, but then if we’ve gone through a long stretch, its just like the need to have a date night or something like that. Even if you recognize the need, you still might find that the weather is keeping you inside. As such, instead you just make sure you make time for each other once the weather permits.
I find, personally, of all the reasons to practice NFP, my personal reason is to respect my body. My body is a temple, a temple of the holy spirit. I should not treat the natural functions of fertility and human sexuality as a disease.
In practice, it didn’t feel like this. We argued. We questioned our faith. However, through time, a theme came up. I had difficulty trusting men to love me and overall was suspecious every man’s sexual drive might motivate him to disregard a woman’s physical, mental and emotional needs. I feared ending up over my head. Meanwhile, he had difficulty trusting someone could really desire him. As such, my attitude toward abstinence was always questioned and scrutnized. It always came down to “You really don’t want to be with me, do you? I disgust you.”
Both of our attitudes fed into each other. NFP brought these issues to the forefront and made us discuss them. As we’ve come to understand, communicate and trust each other more, the “strain” of NFP has mostly gone away.
In the end, the NFP chart is like the weather forecast. Should we go on a picnic? Should we go swimming? Should we do something indoors? We, also, don’t seem to obsess about our infertile time anymore. It has meant we might go through longer stretches of abstinence, but then if we’ve gone through a long stretch, its just like the need to have a date night or something like that. Even if you recognize the need, you still might find that the weather is keeping you inside. As such, instead you just make sure you make time for each other once the weather permits.
I find, personally, of all the reasons to practice NFP, my personal reason is to respect my body. My body is a temple, a temple of the holy spirit. I should not treat the natural functions of fertility and human sexuality as a disease.
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twoangels
Guest
My experience with this forum is that when situations go outside the box of a lot of presumptions about sex (especially morality), people start deperately looking for ways to deny such situations exist or at least can’t be easily solved.
That said, the issue of women’s sexual pain issues is an underdiagnosed and often mismanaged problem within the medical community.
I would recommend the book “When Sex Hurts: A Woman’s Guide to Banishing Sexual Pain”. It includes about 20 different causes of female sexual pain.
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mrs_ahs
Guest
I’m not entirely sure what your question is, but I think you are saying that you are having a hard time believing that folks in this thread who are using NFP to avoid pregnancy need to abstain as many days as they are claiming they need to? Is that correct?Normally, I don’t post on these kinds of threads, because I hesitate to have anyone thinking I’m judging or criticizing for having difficulties (with the concept or with its practice). But I need some closure here, and I don’t mean theologically:
I may not be a mathematician, but the numbers are not adding up, folks. Let’s take it in the opposite direction: Let’s look at fertility enhancement. There ain’t that many truly fertile days, guys and gals, unless three things are in play (a) you have the world’s most irregular cycles (b) wife is a hopelessly fertile type (c) husband has legendary sperm count.
Then, the fourth element needs to be in play: failure to be exhausted from existing family demands (i.e., other children, work, etc.) What, are some of you titans of energy? sounds as if you could harness some of that energy for alternative fuels or something.
Think about it:
When a couple is trying to get pregnant, the pressure is (especially) to have sex within a very short time period. If you fail to have it then, you have to wait until next month. You don’t have weeks in which to get pregnant, during which abstinence “puts a terrible strain on the marriage.”
The math is that there are far more infertile days than fertile days. At least that’s what my biology books tell me, what my Ob-Gyn has always told me, etc. What would make sense is that tension or artificial pressure could result if one or both of you is exhausted during all of the nonfertile days, and had the bad luck to be available to each other on only those few fertile days.
I will add that when our children were young, my husband and I had less energy for sex than before they were born, so I am indeed speaking from experience.
In any case, the math does not add up to me. And “possible” is not the same thing as likely.
Carry on…
I’ll give you an example. I’m 33, my husband is 37, and we have 4 small kids. No health issues related to my fertility, other than I am breastfeeding a toddler and my cycles are still slightly longer (~30 days) than normal (28 days) for me right now. Normally my period is about 5-6 days, during which my husband is not comfortable with the marital act, which I imagine may be the case with many other couples. Days 6-9ish are usually dry or mostly dry and we make use of a couple of those at least. Day 10ish my mucus patch typically starts and abstinence begins, according to the rules of our method, and most others. Lately I’ve been peaking around day 18, which means that phase 3 infertility/availability begins around day 21-22, depending on my temps. A bare minimum of three days post peak is needed to resume relations, and that’s only with a cross-check, otherwise the wait is 4 days or more. Ovulation can occur as early as 3 days before or as late as 3 days after peak. Therefore days 22ish to 30ish are typically available to us post-peak, during which every 2-3 days on average is what we would use, depending on schedules, illness, business trips, etc. My last luteal phase was 11 days, haven’t quite got back to my normal 13 days yet since I’m still nursing. 7-8 days is considered the absolute bottom line days for abstinence with any method I have ever heard of, and I am familiar with most of them.
Trying to conceive is not the same as trying to avoid - when avoiding, you want to minimize your chances of getting pregnant, so even one fertile day used could lead to pregnancy. So to maximize the effectiveness of your method, you would want to follow the rules of that method. When trying to get pregnant, having relations close to ovulation maximizes your chances of pregnancy (which is what you want) because relations at that time are most LIKELY to lead to pregnancy, and presumably you would do that cycle after cycle until pregnancy occurs. So I’m not really sure what the relevance of your statement above regarding trying to conceive is. If you want to decrease the effectiveness of NFP to avoid, definitely push the envelope and have sex close to when you think you might ovulate, then stop right before you think it’s going to happen and pray that it doesn’t happen early. It’s not effective, and I have a four year old to prove it. Actually, he was a peak+2 baby conceived on the third day of high temps and the third day of cervix closing/hardening, although technically we were breaking the rules and we knew it. I also personally know several women who have become pregnant from relations after the mucus patch began, even if it was several days before peak.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Yes, and I am saying that as someone who has used planning both to avoid fertility and to maximize fertility.
Not for us. (Once he got over the initial shock.) Nor has it been the case for women I know, in their marriages. Maybe I just travel with a weird crowd, I don’t know.
That’s one reason you do things like take temperatures, etc., in the offchance that your ovulatory cycles are not regular. I have always known mine, so abstaining even for 6 days has never been necessary (more like 4).
They are actually two sides of the same coin. I have never had a problem when avoiding, because I made it a point to use a narrow window (just as with the opposite – seeking pregnancy) and to know my body well enough to predict with reasonable accuracy. If you’re insisting on being thoroughly cautious and virtually guaranteeing no chance for pregnancy, and you really refuse to have sex during your period, then yes, I suppose you will have a very limited sex life.
Abstaining for 4 days, or even 6 days, does not seem like the end of the world for a marriage. Occasionally a spouse is sick, or one of them is traveling, and a 4-6-day abstinence is not unusual for completely different reasons.
I don’t know. There seems to be a lot of drama on this thread around this issue. Not trying to be critical; just my observation. I will admit that any time sex is “planned,” it is by definition less spontaneous, and if there are issues around the consequences of sex, then it will, or can, affect desire, as well as the general relationship. But personally, I truly hate condoms and find them revolting in comparison with a little planning. I think they are so perverse that they are far more of a romance killer than any planning. But you will read posters on CAF complaining about being denied the delights of condoms vs. NFP. Go figure.
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mrs_ahs
Guest
What method are you using that only requires 4-6 days of abstinence??? It sounds to me like you use rhythm, not NFP. We use NFP and I would not be comfortable with rhythm at all because even for women who have always had regular cycles, things can and do change, especially as you age. For the last 7+ years I have been a regular member of an online forum of hundreds of NFP users. We’ve had many, many threads about how many days of abstinence are required for the women there, and I can honestly say that I have never heard of anything less than 7, and that’s rare. It’s usually 8, bottom limit, but the average is 10-12, even among those who use days during their period. For most women, abstaining 4 days per cycle invites pregnancy. It certainly did not work for me, as I explained about my son in the last post.Yes, and I am saying that as someone who has used planning both to avoid fertility and to maximize fertility.
Not for us. (Once he got over the initial shock.) Nor has it been the case for women I know, in their marriages. Maybe I just travel with a weird crowd, I don’t know.
That’s one reason you do things like take temperatures, etc., in the offchance that your ovulatory cycles are not regular. I have always known mine, so abstaining even for 6 days has never been necessary (more like 4).
They are actually two sides of the same coin. I have never had a problem when avoiding, because I made it a point to use a narrow window (just as with the opposite – seeking pregnancy) and to know my body well enough to predict with reasonable accuracy. If you’re insisting on being thoroughly cautious and virtually guaranteeing no chance for pregnancy, and you really refuse to have sex during your period, then yes, I suppose you will have a very limited sex life.
Abstaining for 4 days, or even 6 days, does not seem like the end of the world for a marriage. Occasionally a spouse is sick, or one of them is traveling, and a 4-6-day abstinence is not unusual for completely different reasons.
I don’t know. There seems to be a lot of drama on this thread around this issue. Not trying to be critical; just my observation. I will admit that any time sex is “planned,” it is by definition less spontaneous, and if there are issues around the consequences of sex, then it will, or can, affect desire, as well as the general relationship. But personally, I truly hate condoms and find them revolting in comparison with a little planning. I think they are so perverse that they are far more of a romance killer than any planning. But you will read posters on CAF complaining about being denied the delights of condoms vs. NFP. Go figure.
Temperatures do not predict ovulation. The temperature rise that occurs AFTER ovulation confirms that ovulation has already occurred, so if you think that temperatures are going to help you know when to abstain before ovulation, that is incorrect. NFP does not require that you have regular cycles, quite the contrary. Rhythm does. Someone who expects 4 days of abstinence per cycle to be normal (this is not AT ALL normal or typical) would not be able to claim method failure upon becoming pregnant. That’s a user error. If you are using calendar rhythm, again, totally different situation.
A 4-6 day abstinence would be very unusual indeed because it’s too short for NFP. You are the very first person I have heard of who has ever claimed 4 days as the norm. You may not have had serious reasons to avoid, but some of us do have very serious health reasons or other reasons, and playing around and making up our own rules/methods usually results in pregnancy for those with normal fertility.
I don’t feel resentful about the abstinence that we personally are faced with, and I don’t have a problem with the lack of spontaneity either, so no drama here. I just really fail to understand what you are talking about with the 4 days of abstinence.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
I agree that 4-6 days is EXTREMELY short for following sympto-thermal NFP rules, so consider yourself lucky, but not normal.
7-10 days is average, which is still quite doable.
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mrs_ahs
Guest
Yeah, you would have to be completely dry and then have a one day mucus patch! LOL
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silentfactor80
Guest
Truer words have never been spoken!
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Mrc
Guest
Going to put it a little bluntly I suppose. Tried a condom. That was the first and last time. It’s not worth it. It feels like masturbating (yuck). Considering that, I’d rather not personally and then (obviously) this view also fits with the church’s teaching.
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eonporter
Guest
Try to understand this: Church teachings carry superior wisdom that comes from God, so it is not up to you to “reason” things, but to accept the reality that there are some things in the universe that you will never be able to understand, but nevertheless are still true and valid for everyone as the Church teaches us.
It is as well proven point, as described for those who practice it, that NFP actually increases the bond between wife and husband, and actually improves the quality of sex instead, as well as its frequency over time. In NFP you actually have to plan sex and talk about it with your wife, and you can bet that talking and planning makes it already way more intimate than just being ready all the time for it. Besides, under NFP there is always a real chance that sex will lead to new life and that itself gives a whole new meaning to the whole thing.
One particular interesting perspective: if every time you had sex with your partner had the real chance of generating a child, would you still have chosen the same partner for your marriage? That the one question that makes you think about how mistaken the secular view can be, when it states that “having sex is like having a popsicle” in terms of everyday choices. It is not.
The way you chose to have sex with you wife affects profoundly your soul and personality, and it changes your life in ways you could never imagine if God hadn’t decided to reveal it in the Church’s teachings.
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eonporter
Guest
Great testimontial! This is exactly what NFP is about.
Not about making things easier for the couple to have fun, but about making marriage meaningful and respectful to our spiritual nature and God’s designs!
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StaTeresita
Guest
Hi CatholicofAgora! You post EXCELLENT questions/comments about NFP:
My spouse and I have used NFP for 6 years and I wish we had used it since the beginning. I cannot say enough good things about it and here is why:
My spouse and I have used NFP for 6 years and I wish we had used it since the beginning. I cannot say enough good things about it and here is why:
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SusanneT
Guest
No denying the maths, although some of us do seem to be potentially fertile on many more days than others ! But there does seem to me to be a big difference between having sex when you want to get pregnant or are totally relaxed about the possibility and only having sex when you are 90% sure you can’t because you are trying not to.Normally, I don’t post on these kinds of threads, because I hesitate to have anyone thinking I’m judging or criticizing for having difficulties (with the concept or with its practice). But I need some closure here, and I don’t mean theologically:
I may not be a mathematician, but the numbers are not adding up, folks. Let’s take it in the opposite direction: Let’s look at fertility enhancement. There ain’t that many truly fertile days, guys and gals, unless three things are in play (a) you have the world’s most irregular cycles (b) wife is a hopelessly fertile type (c) husband has legendary sperm count.
Then, the fourth element needs to be in play: failure to be exhausted from existing family demands (i.e., other children, work, etc.) What, are some of you titans of energy? sounds as if you could harness some of that energy for alternative fuels or something.
Think about it:
When a couple is trying to get pregnant, the pressure is (especially) to have sex within a very short time period. If you fail to have it then, you have to wait until next month. You don’t have weeks in which to get pregnant, during which abstinence “puts a terrible strain on the marriage.”
The math is that there are far more infertile days than fertile days. At least that’s what my biology books tell me, what my Ob-Gyn has always told me, etc. What would make sense is that tension or artificial pressure could result if one or both of you is exhausted during all of the nonfertile days, and had the bad luck to be available to each other on only those few fertile days.
I will add that when our children were young, my husband and I had less energy for sex than before they were born, so I am indeed speaking from experience.
In any case, the math does not add up to me. And “possible” is not the same thing as likely.
Carry on…
Surely for couples who believe they have good reason to avoid NFP is simply an alternative to total abstinence simple as that.
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