NFP & Money

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Marriage should bring forth Children where possible, but the Church also teaches us to be responsible parents.

Financial difficulties is a very broad term.

I think the parents will konw, if they are truly honest with themselves, if their situation is indeed enough to justify spacing births.

You’ll have to be brutally honest with yourself, your spouse and with God on this.

If you need more help discerning, I’d suggest a asking a priest for council.

Good luck!
 
You don’t “leave it up to married couples to decide” on objectively morally evil acts. That’s nonsense.

Otherwise, I shall have to scold my Moral Theology teach for leading me down the wrong path. On second thought, why don’t you? He’s French and he has a temper.

NFP is NOT Catholic birth control. The Church has reluctantly allowed its use in very limited circumstances for very grave reasons. Some people act as if it has some sort of imprimatur attached to it. Contraception is contraception, no matter how “natural” some claim it is.
Unless you are attending some kind of sedvacantist seminary I doubt your moral theology teacher has defined NFP as contraception or has stated that its use in any circumstance is “objectively morally evil.” Aquinas wouldn’t just roll over in his grave, but probably climb out of it and whack anybody teaching such a thing.

I suggest you retake Natural Law 101. It is not a sin for a couple to refrain from sex on any day, fertile or not. Similarly, it is not sinful for a couple to engage in relations on a day that GOD has made naturally infertile (whether due to time of the month, fertility problems or post menopause). Both of these principles are firmly rooted in Natural Law.

It can indeed be sinful for a couple to use NFP to avoid children for a frivolous reason, but that couple’s sin is one of ill intent, not contraception. If you think the church teaches that NFP is merely a sometimes allowed form of contraception you simply haven’t been paying attention.
 
The wedding vows ask if you will accept children willingly. It does not state that that is the purpose of marriage. My sister was unable to have children. Does her marriage of 28 years have no purpose?
WHHOOAA!! The OP said that she is using NFP to avoid pregnancy until their finances are in order. DO NOT put words in my mouth. Yes, when one gets married they are to accept all children given to them. If a couple is UNABLE to have children through no fault of their own then they still uphold their vows. GEESH…:eek: teachccd
 
…We have a lot of debt we are trying to pay it off. The problem is, I don’t know if we’ll ever make a substantial dent in our debt, possibly, by the time we are able to pay off a lot, I will be in my late 30’s or ealry 40’s.

If we don’t think we will ever be able to conquer our debt, or at least during a time where I am able to become pregnant, …
There are different kinds of debt–not all are financial. I owe a “debt” to my parents for all they did for me-- and I repay them by raising their grandchildren. Each of us owes a debt to God that we can never repay.

While you ponder your financial responsibilities, also ponder about your other “debts”. You can’t repay God for all His grace, but you can consult Him on this matter. What do you think God wants? Couples should ask that when discerning use of NFP to avoid children.
 
Your profile states you are 28 now. How much and what types of debt do you have that you believe it will take you over a **decade **to repay?

You should talk to a credit counselor or other financial advisor if you are that deep into debt so young. Perhaps you also need to seek legal advice regarding your debts.
I.
My daughter is 28 and has a ton of student loans to pay off…and she is not even finished with school yet. We figure it will be somewhere in the range of $100,000. That’s probably going to take a long time.
 
My. You question the contraceptive mentality and you get called a sede. But then, they crucified the Truth 2000 years ago and I should hardly expect to be treated better.

It may shock some of you to know that popes actually did write on this topic before John Paul II, of happy memory, came along. Extensively, one might even say. And John Paul II, of happy memory, in no way changed the traditional Catholic teaching about sexual relations within marriage. Which is to say, births may only be “spaced” for grave reasons. Grave. Grave. Grave. NFP is not sinful when used for a grave reason. Grave. Grave. Grave.

The first and primary purpose of marriage is to have children. That is Church teaching. There is no sin in a naturally infertile couple engaging in sexual relations and I never claimed there was. There are also secondary purposes to marriage and the sexual union, which I have elucidated above.

Nor did I claim that it is sinful for a couple to engage in sex during naturally infertile periods or to refrain from having sex at all on a certain day.

Some of you need to read more carefully, I must say. Unless you are intentionally misrepresenting what I write so that you may draw ridiculous conclusions. A disturbing development on a Catholic forum.
 
My daughter is 28 and has a ton of student loans to pay off…and she is not even finished with school yet. We figure it will be somewhere in the range of $100,000. That’s probably going to take a long time.
I cannot imagine what education would be worth starting your adult life in such debt. Surely there is a less expensive way to get a degree!
 
If God can create for you to raise the far greater gift of a child in all their beauty and uniqueness, why would He not sort out your debt for you?
 
I cannot imagine what education would be worth starting your adult life in such debt. Surely there is a less expensive way to get a degree!
One of the big problems in the United States today is young people in debt, largly due to paying off student loans. Graduate degrees are expensive. Ask any new doctor, lawyer or other professional what the major bulk of his or her debts are after graduation and they would tell you paying off student loans. Good graduate schools can cost up to $1200 a credit, yes a credit! Taking only two courses a semester, with fees and books and other expenses you can be looking at $8-10,000 a semester.
 
My thoughts on making more babies:

We need to trust God, as is a requirement for practicing NFP. But we also need to be responsible parents. If you know down to the core of your being that you cannot afford another child, then you cannot just have another child, trusting God to make your debts magically disappear.

We can pray for God to help make our debt decrease faster so that we can afford a child (and we should), but I don’t think we can just have more babies and “trust God” outright.

For instance: If we need to sell our house. We can’t just sit in our room praying for God to have our house sold. Pray to God, trust in Him, but you still need to get up and make the calls, list
the house, show the house and accept or decline offers.
God will hear our prayers, but it’s not like a real estate angel will appear and sell your house. We need to work at it. Anything less is irresponsible. We are in charge of our lives. God gave us a stewardship and He will ask us to show what we have done with it.
We need to be responsible. Not selfish, mind you, never selfish…but not irresponsible with our lives.

You don’t need to be debt free to have a child, but if you can’t afford to even live properly now, how will another child fit into the mix?

Remember:
Diapers.
Clothes.
Time off work.
There may be feeding complications and formula will be required - very expensive.
Hospital bills for the birth and for health reasons after birth. Not all kids are born 100% healthy.

Our first was like this…we were expecting nothing but the cost of diapers, but there were complications and the financial situation that arose was far different from what we anticipated.

Something to keep in mind when trying to pay off astronomical debt.

Be responsible, not selfish and work hard at pleasing Him.
 
Bring in THE expert in finances. This works - begin today and repeat daily until your financial situation has been corrected. First pray, Father I have made a mess of my finances. I have not used the resources you have placed in my care wisely. Forgive me. I ask you in the name of Jesus Christ to guide me to help me to be my source. Supply me from your Infinite storehouse of wealth. Fill to overflow so that I may be a blessing unto others. Second, begin to thank God for what you have and for getting your finances back on track. If you want God to be involved with your finances then get him involved, tithe. Have faith, and pay attention to what he tells you listen to the small voice. Get your flesh under control, do not buy stuff just to fulfill your lust, start tithing. Get your mouth under control; do not make negative statements about your finances or why you are not pro-creating, it is an insult to God. Seriously, I was in the same place as you, over 100,000 in debt without assets. Not any more. Thank you Jesus.
 
My. You question the contraceptive mentality and you get called a sede.
In your last post you called NFP contraception and said it can be “an objectively moral evil.” ManualMan gave you correct information that disproves both counts. I would suggest that you can choose to take his information personally or look into what it is that he said.

Also, can you please reference where the Church or a Church leader has said births may only be spaced for “grave” reasons? I have always heard “serious.”

And you mentioned that the purpose of marriage is to have children. The catechism says this:
1601 “The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.”

The purpose of marriage, as a sacrament, is to help the married couple in the final goal of heaven. Yes, this overwhelmingly involves having children, as marriage is ordered to “the procreation and education of offspring.” That does not mean that couples must have as many children as is physically possible, so there must be a line somewhere between having no children and limiting the number of children for reasons other than purely physical ones.

God bless you.
 
You don’t “leave it up to married couples to decide” on objectively morally evil acts. That’s nonsense.

Otherwise, I shall have to scold my Moral Theology teach for leading me down the wrong path. On second thought, why don’t you? He’s French and he has a temper.

NFP is NOT Catholic birth control. The Church has reluctantly allowed its use in very limited circumstances for very grave reasons. Some people act as if it has some sort of imprimatur attached to it. Contraception is contraception, no matter how “natural” some claim it is.
Actually, this is the wording used in GAUDIUM ET SPES from the 2nd Vatican Council…
Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love. Thus they will fulfil their task with human and Christian responsibility, and, with docile reverence toward God, will make decisions by common counsel and effort. Let them thoughtfully take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which the future may bring. For this accounting they need to reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life. Finally, they should consult the interests of the family group, of temporal society, and of the Church herself. The parents themselves and no one else should ultimately make this judgment in the sight of God. But in their manner of acting, spouses should be aware that they cannot proceed arbitrarily, but must always be governed according to a conscience dutifully conformed to the divine law itself, and should be submissive toward the Church’s teaching office, which authentically interprets that law in the light of the Gospel. That divine law reveals and protects the integral meaning of conjugal love, and impels it toward a truly human fulfillment. Thus, trusting in divine Providence and refining the spirit of sacrifice,(12) married Christians glorify the Creator and strive toward fulfillment in Christ when with a generous human and Christian sense of responsibility they acquit themselves of the duty to procreate. Among the couples who fulfil their God-given task in this way, those merit special mention who with a gallant heart and with wise and common deliberation, undertake to bring up suitably even a relatively large family.(13)
 
The primary purpose of marriage is the procreation of children. It’s secondary purpose is mutual assistance and protection from concupiscence.

NFP is not Catholic birth control and those who use it as such sin gravely. Poverty is, perhaps, a legitimate reason to employ this method for a time. Debt is not. I’m sorry, but it’s not.
OP, send all your bills to Seminarian X…he will pay them for you.😃

Geez louise, Seminarian,…get a grip. I think the OP is using great logic here. If they get some credit counseling and work their debt off…maybe in 5 yrs…who knows.
 
I know totally how the OP feels we cannot have another child until our money situation changes or our child is in K (which will be another 2 years) because we cannot afford a babysitter for more than one child.

We would be unable to provide the basics for our child without both of us working (thank you franciscan university).Because I have a moral obligation to provide my child with food, safe shelter, and clothing, I must work and realize that even though I want another child this isn’t what Gods plan is right now since we could not provide for him/her.

The Church says this about NFP:

The spouses have the inalienable right to found a family and to decide on the spacing of births and the number of children to be born, taking into full consideration their duties towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society, in a just hierarchy of values and in accordance with the objective moral order which excludes recourse to contraception, sterilization and abortion
 
My. You question the contraceptive mentality and you get called a sede. But then, they crucified the Truth 2000 years ago and I should hardly expect to be treated better.

It may shock some of you to know that popes actually did write on this topic before John Paul II, of happy memory, came along. Extensively, one might even say. And John Paul II, of happy memory, in no way changed the traditional Catholic teaching about sexual relations within marriage. Which is to say, births may only be “spaced” for grave reasons. Grave. Grave. Grave. NFP is not sinful when used for a grave reason. Grave. Grave. Grave.

The first and primary purpose of marriage is to have children. That is Church teaching. There is no sin in a naturally infertile couple engaging in sexual relations and I never claimed there was. There are also secondary purposes to marriage and the sexual union, which I have elucidated above.

Nor did I claim that it is sinful for a couple to engage in sex during naturally infertile periods or to refrain from having sex at all on a certain day.

Some of you need to read more carefully, I must say. Unless you are intentionally misrepresenting what I write so that you may draw ridiculous conclusions. A disturbing development on a Catholic forum.
You make a valid complaint in that I made a personal attack out of irritation. Mea Culpa and my apologies.

You however DID make the accusation that NFP is morally equivalent to contraception in the absence of a “grave” reason. That is a serious error in moral theology for a seminarian to make. Contraception is a sin because the couple reaches to seize the pleasure and perceived bonding of intimacy while simultaneously taking positive action to render that act infertile.

Contraception violates Natural Law in that it is a positive action taken to frustrate the fertility function God built into humanity. NFP can never be contraception because it takes no action against God’s plan for fertility. God did not make the female body fertile all the time. Nor did He make her only able to be aroused during fertile times (some animals ARE that way). Natural Law and the Theology of the Body suggest these features are evidence that God does not will for EVERY marital act of intimacy to produce another child.

To be clear, NFP can be abused to the point of sinfulness. But the sin isn’t contraception, it’s a lack of faith in God’s plan for marriage and children. Contracepting couple who use them to avoid having kids altogether commit TWO sins: contraception and that refusal to have faith in God’s plan.

Go ahead and ask that theology prof if I’m not right.
 
…Poverty is, perhaps, a legitimate reason to employ this method for a time. Debt is not. I’m sorry, but it’s not.
I’m going to leave the rest of it alone and just address the above statement. Unfortunately, debts have to be paid. The paying of those debts can lead to poverty. No, “I have $700 worth of debt, no kids, and am making $100,000 a year” probably doesn’t count. But a sufficient amount of debt that, when paying it off, doesn’t leave enough over to be able to properly afford to raise a child, should.

As far as those who say that the pregnancy and birth/setup are the most expensive parts, I wish you were paying for my child! The average cost of raising a child these days is $250,000!!! A quarter of a million dollars. Article: Raising your quarter million dollar baby. I’m not trying to say they aren’t worth every penny. They are! But for a family that is already in over their heads in debt, it does not seem right to plan to bring a child into the world that you can’t afford to support. One of the biggest reasons couples fight is money. Get the debt taken care of first, and as quickly as possible and then welcome your child into a happy, settled home. 🙂 Considering that a (non-Catholic) friend of mine got pregnant after sleeping with her husband only twice in several month and she was on birth control and they used condoms, I think that if God wants you to have a baby before you feel like your family is ready for it, He’s going to work in you to make it happen b/c it doesn’t get much more closed off to procreation than that and, seeing how much you’re struggling with this decision, I very sincerely doubt you’re going to deliberately close Him out. Children are wonderful. They are a blessing. They are a trial. They are a constant source of amazement and worry and love and frustration and excellent teachers of patience and understanding. So, when you do have your finances straightened out, you have an amazing thing to look forward to!
 
It is up to the couple to decide if they have reason to postpone pregnancy and there are many valid reasons.

Re: the quarter million dollar baby, it is just not true that it costs that much. The article itself says the biggest cost is housing, but who says you need to move into a bigger house because you have a baby? We lived in a one bedroom apartment until I was pregnant with my third child and we could afford to move into a bigger place. Cars: you can fit two children into a tiny two door sport car, you don’t need another one unless you are contemplating a third child, then you might not be able to fit another car seat. Child care is a big expense, but you can cut cost by working opposite shifts. Dh’s and my work schedules overlap by about two hours, so we have someone come into the house for those two hours before dh gets home. My parents did the same thing with work, and we always had someone sleeping in our living room, the baby’s bed in the room with mom and dad… I’m just saying that many of the costs we think are necessary are not. It may be that by cutting every corner, you may still not be able to afford another child, but these are things to consider.

Re:college. We have a nearly 10 y.o dd who is very into architecture. She spends all her free time drawing bulidings and designing “interior spaces.” 🙂 As things stand now, she can get an associate’s degree as a cad draftsperson or something of the sort at the local community college where tuition is $1750 per year, which may be entirely covered by Federal Pell Grants (if not, I think we will be able to swing it.) It will give her a marketable skill in order to get a good job which will enable her to pay her own way through college if she so chooses. Whatever field she wants to go into, we can do some variation of that plan to get her on her feet and self sufficient without loans.
 
…As far as those who say that the pregnancy and birth/setup are the most expensive parts, I wish you were paying for my child! The average cost of raising a child these days is $250,000!!! A quarter of a million dollars. Article: Raising your quarter million dollar baby. I’m not trying to say they aren’t worth every penny. They are! But for a family that is already in over their heads in debt, it does not seem right to plan to bring a child into the world that you can’t afford to support…
I agree that pregnancy and birth aren’t the most expensive parts, but parents do not have to spend $250,000 per child. That article speaks of “average”, but let’s face it-- the “average” American lives an expensive lifestyle with or without children. My family and I live well, but the only child of *mine *that comes even close to the dollar amount they claim it costs in that article is the child who attends a private school. Otherwise, according to that article we must be rich to afford our seven children.

Rather than be frightened by what people spend on average, read further into what the article says.
Housing
Cost through age 17: $44,580 to $100,080

This is the biggest single expense of raising children, comprising anywhere from 33% to 37% of the overall annual expense.

What you can do
You could ignore one of the basic assumptions used by the USDA in calculating additional housing costs. You could decide not to move up into a larger home. The table assumes that for each child you have, you’re going to add 100 to 150 square feet of living space to your home.
The article tells what people spend and do on average. Someone who is in debt won’t be able to invest as much in housing, but they still have to live somewhere. Very few people can afford to buy a home for cash, so most people take on “debt” in the form of a mortgage–which also provides some tax benefits in the USA. On average, people with children buy houses, and those with more children usually buy bigger houses. Okay, but housing is not just an expense–it’s also an investment. Granted, the housing market, like the stock market faces ups and downs, but over a lifetime housing ends up being a good investment.
Food
Cost through age 17: $26,490 to $39,470.

This accounts for 15% to 20% of the overall expense.

What you can do
Set strict limits on the more-discretionary forms of food spending. For instance, tell your children they can spend no more than $5 a week on fast food.
Tell your children they can spend no more than $5 a week on fast food, they suggest? :confused: That’s not a “limit” on my budget–that’s way over the average weekly expenditure. Fast food is a rare treat–and it is a treat since we don’t do it much.

Before we had children, we went out more because we had more “free time”, but those dates and dinners out weren’t free. In fact, we went to nicer and more expensive restaurants. Last week my family of 7 ate out and the bill with tip came to $50. We easily spent $50 eating out when we were dating–and we ate out much more frequently.

Explore the American lifestyle further. Many American’s live in debt–but it is not because of children. Living simpler and tightening one’s budget is the way to get out of debt. Except maybe for student loans or extended lay-offs, debt is usually incured because of some irresponsible choices in the past that leads people to live outside of their means. Becoming a parent can help us to learn to live more responsibly. Rather than just working to get out of debt, parenthood gives greater meaning to work and life.

I have no idea about the original posters livestyle, debt or financial picture. I strongly agree with the recommendations to see a financial counselor. But I just wanted to address the article posted because it is a little misleading. The article does not and can not assess what the financial picture of a couple would be without children. Would they invest in housing? Would they spend more on entertainment and dining out? Would they find career success? No one can really compare their financial picture after 18 years with a child and know for certain what their financial picture would have looked like without that child.

Consider also how God values a human soul–He paid far more the $250,000. Raising spiritually healthy children is a good investment–both on earth and in eternity.
 
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