NFP--no symptoms of ovulation

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Diotima

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I am having difficulty with NFP and would appreciate any insight into my problem. This is a long post, but I hope you will be patient and read it all. 🙂

I am in my early 30s. I have three children, am NOT currently breastfeeding, and have regular 26-29 day cycles. I am using NFP to avoid pregnancy and have serious reasons to do so.

I have used four different methods of NFP: the Billings Ovulation Method, the Standard Days Method, the Ovacue monitor, and now the Clearblue/Marquette method. I have worked with two different NFP teachers (for the BOM and the Ovacue) and have consulted my doctor about NFP.

The problem is that, even though I have regular cycles, I have NO symptoms of ovulation under any method. With the BOM, I might have a day or two of “slippery” sensation, then back to dry, then another day of “slippery,” etc. I never have the pattern associated with “peak.”

With the Clearblue monitor, I get “high” every day I test, but never “peak” or “low.”

I know that I must be ovulating, because I’ve gotten pregnant immediately every time I’ve tried (and once without even trying). I have no fertility problems or known miscarriages. But for some reason, no method can actually p(name removed by moderator)oint my ovulation.

Both of the NFP instructors I’ve worked with have told me that I have zero available days and must abstain all the time. They don’t want to discuss possible sources of the problem, other than “the postpartum period can be confusing.” (I am TWO YEARS postpartum, no longer breastfeeding, and have regular cycles.)

I don’t want to be told to try another method. I still get up around 3 am with my two-year-old and sometimes don’t get to go back to sleep, so temping won’t work. I don’t want to try another mucus method either, because I already know that I don’t have distinctive mucus at ovulation.

I have tried using progesterone cream in the last 14 days of my cycle, and that didn’t make my charts any better. I did that for over 6 months.

So, basically, here are my questions . . .
  1. Can anyone recommend a doctor or medical professional in the Los Angeles area who could work on NFP with me?
  2. Can anyone suggest a possible medical issue that could be causing this? Did anyone else have this problem and then get it resolved? I am not asking for medical advice, just a possible lead that I could further pursue with a medical professional.
  3. A subscription to the Marquette NFP forum costs money, and they don’t offer a free trial. Would a subscription be helpful, or is their advice going to be a bunch of vague platitudes like “the postpatrum period can be confusing” or “talk to your doctor”?
A big THANKS to anyone who actually read this post. Have a blessed Holy Week.
 
This is not medical advice, and I wouldn’t bet the farm on this, but it is possible that these are anovulatory cycles.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anovulatory_cycle

I think the first thing I’d do if I were you is to work with a doctor and make sure that ovulation is actually happening.

Another area to work on is your sleep–if you can eliminate that 3 AM wakeup (or at least manage to go back to bed), temping would give you a lot more information. (I know different people are different, but I’ve personally not had a lot of disruption from getting up in the middle of the night and going back to bed.) Even just moving the wakeup forward a smidge would be helpful–I have heard of a mom using 4 AM temperatures for NFP, but I don’t know how well that works.

So, talk to your pediatrician about the wakeups. Our 3-year-old was waking up a lot at night for quite a while–it turned out she had a UTI.

Does anybody know what the earliest usable temperature is?
 
If you don’t mind my asking, why did you stop using Standard Days?
 
OP, that sounds frustrating.

I live on the east coast so I don’t have anyone to recommend. I also don’t belong and have never belonged to the Marquette NFP forum. So you may not find these helpful but I figure it can’t hurt to share my initial thoughts:

First thought would be, are you on any medications? There are some (like antihistamines, sleep aids, epilepsy meds, and cough syrups) that can make it difficult to detect. If you’re taking anything regularly, even something homeopathic or “natural” I would research to see whether it could be affecting cervical secretions.

Some other things that might affect cervical mucus: past surgery on your cervix, douching, being underweight (although that would affect ovulation, not just mucus), an STD. Just throwing those out there for you or anyone else reading.

By any chance have you charted during a cycle when you got pregnant? It could be that your ovulation pattern just looks different than textbook. I’m not as familiar with the BOM; when you have slippery sensation, is there any visible mucus? Does it look like stretchy egg whites?

People on these boards are going to knock SDM, but if you have regular cycles between 26-32 days (and it sounds like you do) then it is very effective. If you stopped using it because someone spooked you about it, it might be helpful to read all the studies that Georgetown has done on it’s effectiveness.

How long did you use the Clearblue monitor? It’s been a while since I used mine, but if recall, it takes a couple of cycles for it to learn your cycles and until then it can give an unusually high number of “peak days” so that you don’t have an unintended pregnancy.

I’ve always favored the sympto-thermal method because I like seeing the temp rises and it is possible for many women to temp even if they wake up in the middle of the night, but since you don’t want to try it, I won’t suggest it. 😉

Good luck, OP, I hope you find something that works for you.
 
Marquette user here.

I am so sorry you’re going through this frustration!

I have three suggestions.
  1. As to the forums, they can be helpful in that Dr. Fehring or his assistant generally reply personally to a post within a couple of business days. However, I would really suggest is that you consider speaking to a Marquette instructor instead. One of the more helpful things about Marquette is that one must be a health care professional, usually a nurse, to be an instructor.
  2. There is a large and very helpful Facebook group for the Marquette method. I dislike Facebook as a rule, but keep a profile up on it so that I can ask the members questions and also access the most recent files and protocols for Marquette. They also have lists of instructors who may be local to you; many of the instructors will meet via Skype.
  3. I have lucked out in that over several years of using Marquette, I have missed Peak exactly once. However, that one time made me paranoid enough to use backup ovulation predictor strips. About 4-5 days before I expect to ovulate, I will test with a cheap OPK in the evening in addition to morning testing with the monitor. These cost very little–I get a box of these, which last about a year for $20. Although, as I said, the monitor doesn’t miss peak for me, it’s really nice to have a double-check built into our system; I have serious health reasons that make avoiding a must. I know some Marquette users who have a very short ovulation hormone spike and who test with the monitor in the evenings instead, too.
An instructor might have some more ideas for you than I’ve listed here. Good luck! I really hope you find a solution soon.

PS–One other thing. It won’t work now, but once your kid stops waking up, you might consider using temperature as a cross-check with the monitor. I know several Marquette users with indistinct fertile signs and/or a desperate need to avoid who do that as well.
 
This is not medical advice, and I wouldn’t bet the farm on this, but it is possible that these are anovulatory cycles.
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Thanks so much, Xanthippe. One of my NFP instructors mentioned this, but I admit I was skeptical. If I have frequent anovulatory cycles, then why I do get pregnant so easily? But I will investigate that further with a doctor.
So, talk to your pediatrician about the wakeups. Our 3-year-old was waking up a lot at night for quite a while–it turned out she had a UTI.
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Our son has had UTIs in the past. It didn’t occur to me that he could have one now, since he doesn’t have a fever. I will get it checked out.

I do hope that my NFP charts will improve once he finally starts sleeping through the night.
If you don’t mind my asking, why did you stop using Standard Days?
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It worked perfectly for 6 cycles. Then I had a pregnancy scare/possible miscarriage where my period was several days late, and was very heavy when it did come. So that made me wonder if the method had failed that time.

Plus, I asked about the SDM on this board once and the responses were almost uniformly negative, so that gave me pause.
First thought would be, are you on any medications? There are some (like antihistamines, sleep aids, epilepsy meds, and cough syrups) that can make it difficult to detect. If you’re taking anything regularly, even something homeopathic or “natural” I would research to see whether it could be affecting cervical secretions.
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Nope, just B vitamins.
How long did you use the Clearblue monitor? It’s been a while since I used mine, but if recall, it takes a couple of cycles for it to learn your cycles and until then it can give an unusually high number of “peak days” so that you don’t have an unintended pregnancy.
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It’s actually my first cycle using it. I didn’t know that it could take several cycles for it to correctly identify peak. I’ll hang in there! Thanks so much, nodito.
 
Diotima said:
It’s actually my first cycle using it. I didn’t know that it could take several cycles for it to correctly identify peak. I’ll hang in there! Thanks so much, nodito.
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Ooooh, yes. It is not uncommon for the monitor to take a couple of cycles to get to know you. The good news is that once it does, you’ll be using a lot fewer sticks. I generally use only 9-10/month, which is very nice from a financial standpoint.

(And in case you weren’t aware, one other money tip: never, ever buy those sticks in a drugstore. Buy them on Amazon, where you’ll pay literally between 30-50% of the store price. Around here, they’re $65/box at CVS; on Amazon, I watch the price and grab a few boxes when they hit $25/box or so.)
 
I’ve used Marquette for over four years total now. It might be worth paying for a subscription- I only belonged to the forum initially (I think it was free then) but I do recall finding it useful.

A few things I have learned over the years:
  • Pay attention to what is normal for you, not necessarily what is “textbook” normal. Also, what was normal for me before I had my son changed, and now certain patterns I used to rely on are no longer the same. The method still works, though I find myself relying more on the monitor to tell me what is going on than in the past.
  • It can take awhile for the monitor to “get to know” your cycle- how long have you been using Marquette? Initially, I did not get a peak either for the first couple of cycles, but I’m fairly certain ovulation was occurring.
  • Have you tried using cheap ovulation tests in conjunction with the monitor, at least until you figure out what is going on? I have some that I buy on Amazon that are inexpensive, and you can use them more than once a day. That way, if you happen to have a rather short “peak” (some people do) that the monitor is missing, the other ovulation tests might catch it.
-Once the monitor catches the upswing in estrogen (leading to a high reading), it will stay high until it peaks. So, if it misses your peak, it will just continue to read high, even though you might actually be “low” a few days after ovulation.

-Make sure that you haven’t urinated for several hours before testing. If it’s too dilute, the monitor might not work correctly.

-If you have any other, “non-scientific” ovulation signs, those might be helpful. For example, mood swings or other physical pain that comes and goes based on where you are in your cycle. I use an app called OvuView, where you can track lots of different symptoms and look at patterns. It’s very useful.

Was your progesterone cream prescribed by a doctor for a specific reason? No need to answer here, but if not, those kinds of things can affect your cycles and if you stopped, it can also take some time to regulate itself.
 
Your post struck a chord with me.
it is possible that you are ovulating some months, and not others. But every ‘month’ you are bleeding. But when you do ovulate the bleeding/period will be heavier. With bigger clots - apologies if TMI (too much information)
This is what happens for me - late 30s, two kids)
I have been diagnosed with low progesterone.
It can be very frustrating from a NFP and intimate relations POV when avoiding. It’s also a bit disheartening to keep recoding when there doesn’t seem much point as my chances of being pregnant are so small! . Each month my body keeps trying, and failing to ovulate so I get the mucus signs but no ovulation.
The book ‘Taking charge of your fertility’ has a useful chapter on annulovatory cycles and what to look for if you are trying to avoid a baby.
For me temperature gives me the answer if I have ovulated or not. Now after two years I know what the other signs of a non-ovulation month are - for me it’s intermittent period type pains for up to 2/3 weeks And a record of latest ovulation days which provides extra information too.
 
My dear, may I ask how old you are? The poster who suggested that you may be having anovulatory cycles may be correct. I began having strange cycles after my last baby who was born when I was 37. I thought the doctor was nuts, but it turned out he was right. Ask your mother how old she was when she began the change. It takes several years. See your doctor about this.
 
I think the OP is in her early 30s.
I had a test for menopause also but I am years from menopause.
It’s definitely worth testing though.
Also PCOS should be tested too.
 
Diotima said:
Our son has had UTIs in the past. It didn’t occur to me that he could have one now, since he doesn’t have a fever. I will get it checked out.
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With our daughter, the initial symptom was a) the wakeups and b) always being able to pee a little/trouble with potty training.

If there was a fever, it didn’t appear early on.

So, I would check in with the pediatrician–if it’s not a UTI, it might be some other illness.
 
Xantippe said:
With our daughter, the initial symptom was a) the wakeups and b) always being able to pee a little/trouble with potty training.

If there was a fever, it didn’t appear early on.

So, I would check in with the pediatrician–if it’s not a UTI, it might be some other illness.
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Boys get UTI’s very rarely, when they do it is somewhat more serious. My youngest had symptoms of is uti and his urine sample looked iffy. He had to see a Ped urologist.
 
You need to see a doctor for a medical evaluation. The NFP coaches aren’t engaged for your medical care and can’t give you a holistic medical assessment.

I suffered through almost 4 years of “it’s just postpartum [insert whatever cause]” from the NFP instructors and chronic, totally unnecessary abstinence. No, it wasn’t postpartum whatever. In my case, it was a reproductive endocrine disorder and an ovarian tumor, and no amount of morning temperature readings, OPKs, and obsessive cervical mucus checks would change that.

I was fortunate to see a specialist and get proper care in time. Appallingly, the medical director of the method I used (a licensed medical doctor) did NOT recommend I consult a specialist. Although I wasn’t technically retained as her patient, I found this highly unethical. No NFP method is so sacrosanct as to not be rigorously scrutinized when individual patient cases merit it! If I had stuck with the NFP party line, I would have lost an ovary and potentially had internal organ damage while going untreated for a medical condition known to be correlated with cardiac disease. That is utterly unconscionable.

This is what rankles me about non-evidence-based NFP practitioners–many have an attitude of an us-against-them mentality with licensed medical professionals, and they behave defensively as if referrals undermine their method efficacy. The reality is that some women–a not insignificant minority–have gynecological conditions that necessitate medical care and may require (gasp!) therapeutic (and Church-sanctioned) use of hormonal medications or surgical procedures for health.

Be informed–both from a medical and Catholic perspective. Ensure you receive the best quality medical care (a GP consult with referrals to appropriate specialists) and consult an informed priest for guidance before you proceed. Medical science and Church teaching need not be incompatible. The Church, in Her wisdom, provides charitable, moral, and health-serving options for people with bodily infirmity. Remember–the goal of human sexuality is to celebrate God’s gifts to us and conform to His plan for us, which includes bodily health. Where NFP is inconsistent with that objective, the Church provides licit alternatives. 🙂

Courage, my friend, and good health! Insist you see a reproductive endocrinologist if you get no definitive answers!
 
alphawoman said:
You need to see a doctor for a medical evaluation. The NFP coaches aren’t engaged for your medical care and can’t give you a holistic medical assessment.

I suffered through almost 4 years of “it’s just postpartum [insert whatever cause]” from the NFP instructors and chronic, totally unnecessary abstinence. No, it wasn’t postpartum whatever. In my case, it was a reproductive endocrine disorder and an ovarian tumor, and no amount of morning temperature readings, OPKs, and obsessive cervical mucus checks would change that. I was fortunate to see a specialist and get proper care in time. Appallingly, the medical director of the method I used (a licensed medical doctor) did NOT recommend I consult a specialist. Although I wasn’t technically retained as her patient, I found this highly unethical.

This is what rankles me about non-evidence-based NFP practitioners–many have an attitude of an us-against-them mentality with licensed medical professionals, and they behave defensively as if referrals undermine their method efficacy. The reality is that some women–a not insignificant minority–have gynecological conditions that necessitate medical care and may require (gasp!) therapeutic (and Church-sanctioned) use of hormonal medications or surgical procedures for health.

Be informed–both from a medical and Catholic perspective. Ensure you receive the best quality medical care (a GP consult with referrals to appropriate specialists) and consult an informed priest for guidance before you proceed. Medical science and Church teaching need not be incompatible. The Church, in Her wisdom, provides charitable, moral, and health-serving options for people with bodily infirmity. Remember–the goal of human sexuality is to celebrate God’s gifts to us and conform to His plan for us, which includes bodily health. Where NFP is inconsistent with that objective, the Church provides licit alternatives. 🙂

Courage, my friend, and good health! Insist you see a reproductive endocrinologist if you get no definitive answers!
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Oh my goodness!

I’m glad you’re getting appropriate care now.
 
Yes, thank GOD, not NFP instructors.

Don’t get me wrong–NFP methods can work well in many cases under medical supervision. But NFP isn’t a panacea, and women should be given the respect of being treated as more than reproductive organs.

I am a strong advocate for more funding from the Vatican for evidence-based, peer-reviewed clinical trials around NFP methods.
 
It’s possible that the mucus may only appear internally? Have you tried checking for it at your cervix? As long as you are entirely consistent with where you check for mucus (panties/toilet paper vs. at cervix) it is still valid use of the method. Having said that I am sure your instructors already suggested that…
 
Diotima said:
It’s actually my first cycle using it. I didn’t know that it could take several cycles for it to correctly identify peak. I’ll hang in there! Thanks so much, nodito.
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Yes! Oh, I’m so hopeful for you! Give it a few cycles and see what happens!
 
I suffered through almost 4 years of “it’s just postpartum [insert whatever cause]” from the NFP instructors and chronic, totally unnecessary abstinence. No, it wasn’t postpartum whatever. In my case, it was a reproductive endocrine disorder and an ovarian tumor, and no amount of morning temperature readings, OPKs, and obsessive cervical mucus checks would change that.
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I’m so sorry that happened to you!

I am honestly starting to feel like the Church’s poor handling of NFP–deploying non-medical professionals to teach it, making few efforts to educate doctors about it–reminds me of the Pharisees: “They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”
Remember–the goal of human sexuality is to celebrate God’s gifts to us and conform to His plan for us, which includes bodily health. Where NFP is inconsistent with that objective, the Church provides licit alternatives.
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What are those alternatives? It seems to me that the only options are “make NFP actually work for you, or else just be abstinent all the time.”
 
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