Nfp question

[Truly_Beloved]

Mary Gail, I quoted you because I’m curious about something (bear in mind our only little one is just around 7 weeks old). On the bolded section. I don’t think 19 months is that young…I mean, even if they got pregnant TODAY, that little one would be over 2 years old when the new baby was born. Is that really so young that you think “oh my, I need more time to recover”?

I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I’ve told my husband (with much sadness ) that I don’t think I can emotionally handle actively seeking pregnancy while my littlest baby (now 2 months old) is still nursing and in diapers. My two other children have severe speech delays, and they consume quite a bit of my energy. I have been constantly nursing a baby since January 2006 (that baby just weaned July 2010), and I have been tandem nursing since January 2008 (I did receive a glorious 10-day break from tandem nursing, where I was only nursing one baby again, before my newborn arrived). All of my children are still in diapers, only one of them talks (of which I can understand only half of what she says), we are a homeschooling family, and I’m definitely beat. :blackeye: And I only have three kiddos.

Because my husband and I have discussed it and we are just leaving our fertility in God’s hands. We’re not old, but don’t want to wait and have problems with secondary fertility. Not to mention we just don’t have a serious reason to avoid. Am I afraid that with my baby only 7 weeks old I could get pregnant (not able to breastfeed, I’m pumping but don’t know what that does to fertility)? A little. But, I’m trusting God.

I like to think I’m trusting God, too. Even though, at minimum, I’m hoping He will bless us with another baby after my newest little one is developmentally closer to 3 or 4 (chronological age means nothing in my house ). I hate using NFP to achieve or avoid (I’ve done both in the past and don’t like it), but I also am coming to terms with my own limitations with what God has given me, so far. I wish I could be my own ideal – To only use NFP to estimate my due date, and not worry about when the children might come. But now, with three children developmentally ages 2 and under, I’m weak. And very much humbled. I won’t actively seek another pregnancy (like I did the first three times), but I will be open to Baby #4 whenever God eases my burdens a bit by granting me more strength or accelerating the maturation of my current wee ones.

So, honestly it boggles my mind that so many have said “her youngest is only 19 months old”.

There is a lot of variation in the developmental abilities of 19 month old babies. In my experience, even 2.5 years old can barely mirror the abilities of the “average” 9 to 12 month old. I honestly don’t know what it’s like to have a “normal” 19 month old, so it’s entirely possible my (name removed by moderator)ut here isn’t the most valuable.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

FWIW, I agree with lifeisbeautiful, based on what the OP has said, I don’t think that he’s being unreasonable or that they are on the same page as to what is a serious reason to avoid.

Mary Gail, I quoted you because I’m curious about something (bear in mind our only little one is just around 7 weeks old). On the bolded section. I don’t think 19 months is that young…I mean, even if they got pregnant TODAY, that little one would be over 2 years old when the new baby was born. Is that really so young that you think “oh my, I need more time to recover”? I’m curious, not trying to be antagonistic. Because my husband and I have discussed it and we are just leaving our fertility in God’s hands. We’re not old, but don’t want to wait and have problems with secondary fertility. Not to mention we just don’t have a serious reason to avoid. Am I afraid that with my baby only 7 weeks old I could get pregnant (not able to breastfeed, I’m pumping but don’t know what that does to fertility)? A little. But, I’m trusting God. So, honestly it boggles my mind that so many have said “her youngest is only 19 months old”.

PS I am not saying that it is not difficult to have 4 small children (don’t know if he said how old the other ones are, can’t remember), or that every woman and family can handle a family of that size. Not discounting the perceived feelings of the OP’s wife or anyone else that may have decided to wait because they were overwhelmed. I’m just trying to understand it.

I don’t see it as neccessarily time to recover…I see it as having four children and the smallest being 19 months. It obviously must be hard work. I can empathize with wanting to care for the four and having a slightly longer break until attempting for number 5.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I don’t see it as neccessarily time to recover…I see it as having four children and the smallest being 19 months. It obviously must be hard work. I can empathize with wanting to care for the four and having a slightly longer break until attempting for number 5.

See, no one is denying it can be hard work, I certainly wouldn’t , but hard work is good, it can sanctify us. Our human nature can make us want to avoid hard work (I can’t deny this either) so wanting to avoid it is not necessarily a good reason. It is up to the couple to discern whether or not it is necessary to “take a break”/not take on any more or not, none of us here know what is going on in their house, we don’t know exactly what the wife is feeling. They need to figure it out, and either way, they will be responsible for what they decide. I too was wondering about why people seem to assume that 4 kids + 19 mo has to equal serious reasons/ God’s will to avoid. It may very well for some families, but maybe not for others. Truly presented a very good example of how different families can have totally different needs. Furthermore, talking it over may help them discover other areas in which they can improve to help change how she is feeling. One family might have 4 kids, one of them being a 12 yr old girl that is in ballet, jazz, volleyball, and track. Mom might be overwhelmed. Well maybe if 12 yr old cuts back a little in extracurricular activities, mom wouldn’t be as overwhelmed. Maybe another family has 4 kids and dad does 0 to help mom in any way. Mom feels overwhelmed. Maybe mom and dad can talk and figure out how he can help. Talking about it helps people be on the same page and will make for a better relationship regardless of what they feel called to do on the NFP front.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

See, no one is denying it can be hard work, I certainly wouldn’t , but hard work is good, it can sanctify us. It is up to the couple to discern whether or not it is necessary to “take a break”/not take on any more or not, none of us here know what is going on in their house, we don’t know exactly what the wife is feeling. Our human nature can make us want to avoid hard work (I can’t deny this either) so wanting to avoid it is not necessarily a good reason. They need to figure it out, and either way, they will be responsible for what they decide. I too was wondering about why people seem to assume that 4 kids + 19 mo has to equal serious reasons/ God’s will to avoid. It may very well for some families, but maybe not for others. Truly presented an very good example of how different families can have totally different needs. Furthermore, talking it over may help them discover things that other things may need modification to help change how she feels. One family might have 4 kids, one of them being a 12 yr old girl that is in ballet, jazz, volleyball, and track. Mom might be overwhelmed. Well maybe if 12 yr old cuts back a little in extracurricular activities, mom wouldn’t be as overwhelmed. Maybe another family has 4 kids and dad does 0 to help mom in any way. Mom feels overwhelmed. Maybe mom and dad can talk and figure out how he can help. Talking about it helps people be on the same page and will make for a better relationship regardless of what they feel called to do on the NFP front.

See we don’t know Mrs. OP. all we know is she wants to contnue with NFP, he doesn’t.

I think it’s safe to think she isn’t selfish, she does have 4 children and is open for a 5th. Just not today. Maybe in the near future.

I guess bottom line is that the meaning of “just causes” varies from person to person.

 

[Jea9]

I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I’ve told my husband (with much sadness ) that I don’t think I can emotionally handle actively seeking pregnancy while my littlest baby (now 2 months old) is still nursing and in diapers. My two other children have severe speech delays, and they consume quite a bit of my energy. I have been constantly nursing a baby since January 2006 (that baby just weaned July 2010), and I have been tandem nursing since January 2008 (I did receive a glorious 10-day break from tandem nursing, where I was only nursing one baby again, before my newborn arrived). All of my children are still in diapers, only one of them talks (of which I can understand only half of what she says), we are a homeschooling family, and I’m definitely beat. :blackeye: And I only have three kiddos.

I like to think I’m trusting God, too. Even though, at minimum, I’m hoping He will bless us with another baby after my newest little one is developmentally closer to 3 or 4 (chronological age means nothing in my house ). I hate using NFP to achieve or avoid (I’ve done both in the past and don’t like it), but I also am coming to terms with my own limitations with what God has given me, so far. I wish I could be my own ideal – To only use NFP to estimate my due date, and not worry about when the children might come. But now, with three children developmentally ages 2 and under, I’m weak. And very much humbled. I won’t actively seek another pregnancy (like I did the first three times), but I will be open to Baby #4 whenever God eases my burdens a bit by granting me more strength or accelerating the maturation of my current wee ones.

There is a lot of variation in the developmental abilities of 19 month old babies. In my experience, even 2.5 years old can barely mirror the abilities of the “average” 9 to 12 month old. I honestly don’t know what it’s like to have a “normal” 19 month old, so it’s entirely possible my (name removed by moderator)ut here isn’t the most valuable.

Truly, I’m not discounting what you’re saying, but I am going to say I don’t think you’re typical! You are the only person I’ve heard on here that BFs for so long (I’m sure there are others, just not as vocal! ) and tandem nursing…whoa rock star! But, I agree, we don’t know and I think that’s what LIB was saying. That you can’t say that the OP’s wife isn’t being selfish JUST because she has 4 kids. Maybe they’re super easy? We don’t know from his posts, and we wouldn’t know unless SHE told us.

I don’t see it as neccessarily time to recover…I see it as having four children and the smallest being 19 months. It obviously must be hard work. I can empathize with wanting to care for the four and having a slightly longer break until attempting for number 5.

OK, I guess I kind of understand. But, what I also don’t get is that just because you aren’t using NFP does not mean you are actively trying to get pregnant. We aren’t. It would be insane for us right now to try to conceive, but if it happens, then it is certainly God’s will. Isn’t that what everyone says about NFP? You’re being open to life should it happen, but YOUR goal is no kids. Well, we just don’t have a goal. That’s what it sounds like the husband wants to do. Understanding that even in a woman with a “normal” cycle there are only a few “peak” days on which pregnancy is likely, just because you don’t use NFP does not mean you will be pregnant in a month. Many people on here that struggle with fertility can attest to that. Right?

lifeisbeautiful, I forgot to quote yours, but I agree completely. The point is that based on the information we have, and even what it seems like the OP knows, we don’t know that she has a serious reason. We don’t even know that she thinks it’s serious, only that she wants to keep using it at this point. And, maybe with prayerful conversation one of them will change their mind?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Truly, I’m not discounting what you’re saying, but I am going to say I don’t think you’re typical! You are the only person I’ve heard on here that BFs for so long (I’m sure there are others, just not as vocal! ) and tandem nursing…whoa rock star! But, I agree, we don’t know and I think that’s what LIB was saying. That you can’t say that the OP’s wife isn’t being selfish JUST because she has 4 kids. Maybe they’re super easy? We don’t know from his posts, and we wouldn’t know unless SHE told us.

OK, I guess I kind of understand. But, what I also don’t get is that just because you aren’t using NFP does not mean you are actively trying to get pregnant. We aren’t. It would be insane for us right now to try to conceive, but if it happens, then it is certainly God’s will. Isn’t that what everyone says about NFP? You’re being open to life should it happen, but YOUR goal is no kids. Well, we just don’t have a goal. That’s what it sounds like the husband wants to do. Understanding that even in a woman with a “normal” cycle there are only a few “peak” days on which pregnancy is likely, just because you don’t use NFP does not mean you will be pregnant in a month. Many people on here that struggle with fertility can attest to that. Right?

lifeisbeautiful, I forgot to quote yours, but I agree completely. The point is that based on the information we have, and even what it seems like the OP knows, we don’t know that she has a serious reason. We don’t even know that she thinks it’s serious, only that she wants to keep using it at this point. And, maybe with prayerful conversation one of them will change their mind?

I understand your point…but for me at least having used both Billings and Creighton even if I don’t chart at all, I know when the easiest days to conceive are.
So just by the rules of the 2 methods, beign intimate on those days translates to “attempting to conceive”.

But In one of my first posts, I did say they need to pray an communicate with each other.

 

[Jea9]

I understand your point…but for me at least having used both Billings and Creighton even if I don’t chart at all, I know when the easiest days to conceive are.
So just by the rules of the 2 methods, beign intimate on those days translates to “attempting to conceive”.

But In one of my first posts, I did say they need to pray an communicate with each other.

OK, that explains more. The most I’ve done with NFP is kept track of temps, we just wanted a vague idea in case we ended up having trouble conceiving. I would have no idea when in my cycle I’m more likely to conceive. And, postpartum, I don’t even know where I am in my cycle.

And, I think most of us agree that they need to communicate more. That is the biggest part of NFP, right? Communication.

 

[monicatholic]

I too was wondering about why people seem to assume that 4 kids + 19 mo has to equal serious reasons/ God’s will to avoid. It may very well for some families, but maybe not for others.

right. and for OPs family-- at least for his wife (and that’s plenty) she has stated hers is serious reason to avoid preganacy now. not to travel europe. not to pursue a degree. but because she has 4 kids and the youngest is still small. how dare we suggest her reasons may be tainted by selfishness, weakness, or any form of shrinking from one’s holy duties.

her reasons may not be enough for some families. but it’s enough for Mrs OP, who is holy, self sacrificing, good and generous (according to Mr OP.) if ***she ***says it’s just reason, than you betcha i believe her. .

life-is-beautiful, of course hard work sanctifies us. but employing prudence is a virtuous practice. and trustuing one’s spouse to know her body/ mind/ limits is a work of charity which OP should show his wife.

we have ten kids born and 2 in heaven. i have discerned serious reason to avoide further pregnancy-- serious reason that is not up for public polling. if my husband asked his friends or catholic online community “gee. do you think my wife has good reason to avoid pregnancy? i don’t.” i would be hurt to my very core that my husband dismissed my concerns and discernment. especially since i’ve demonstrated, like OPs wife, that i really am committed to being an obedient daughter of the church.

 

[Jea9]

right. and for OPs family-- at least for his wife (and that’s plenty) she has stated hers is serious reason to avoid preganacy now. not to travel europe. not to pursue a degree. but because she has 4 kids and the youngest is still small. how dare we suggest her reasons may be tainted by selfishness, weakness, or any form of shrinking from one’s holy duties.

her reasons may not be enough for some families. but it’s enough for Mrs OP, who is holy, self sacrificing, good and generous (according to Mr OP.) if ***she ***says it’s just reason, than you betcha i believe her. .

life-is-beautiful, of course hard work sanctifies us. but employing prudence is a virtuous practice. and trustuing one’s spouse to know her body/ mind/ limits is a work of charity which OP should show his wife.

we have ten kids born and 2 in heaven. i have discerned serious reason to avoide further pregnancy-- serious reason that is not up for public polling. if my husband asked his friends or catholic online community “gee. do you think my wife has good reason to avoid pregnancy? i don’t.” i would be hurt to my very core that my husband dismissed my concerns and discernment. especially since i’ve demonstrated, like OPs wife, that i really am committed to being an obedient daughter of the church.

OK, but would you (did you) make that decision to avoid future pregnancies WITHOUT your husband? Would you discount HIS thoughts? I think that we’re all saying the same thing, clearly this couple needs to have some major communication. If NFP is about prayerfully discerning TOGETHER whether or not to pursue pregnancy, something is missing here. Right?

 

[mommamaree]

Frankly, I hope the moderators close this thread soon. I think it is incredibly unfair to be speculating about the motives and values of Mrs. OP, especially since she is probably entirely unaware of the existence of this thread. Mr. OP came here with what appeared to me to be a rather simple and straightforward question: How does a couple find a way to understand each other when discerning serious/just/grave reasons for using NFP to avoid? Some of the talk in the last day or so about the character of Mrs. OP and her selfish/unselfish reasons have long since ceased to be productive. A lot of this is pure gossip and sounds very judgemental. I agree with the other poster (can’t remember her name, but she is a mother of 10) who said that this conversation is totally unfair to the wife of OP.

Edited to Add: Just saw the name of the poster with whom I agree - Monicatholic, thank you for being the voice of wisdom here.

 

[DOUGH]

I appreciate all of your answers and replies. As you all know NFP is difficult, I am a very active and involved Father, making dinner, doing dishes, changing diapers and such. I truly think that being a mommy of little ones is the most demanding job in the world, albeit so rewarding. I my wife knows that.

Through prayer I have discerned that I am being a little selfish at this moment, it is difficult for a husband who loves his beautiful wife to abstain at times. That is my sinful and selfish nature. That is also the beauty if NFP, because through my struggle I have had to learn to listen in a different way to my spouse, and also convey my feelings and difficulties to her in a loving way, so that she doesn’t feel guilty. Our society is one that delivers everything to us instantly, and it is so easy to want what we want NOW. But I have lifted my stuggles up to Christ and the Blessed Mother, and they will provide my strength in times of weakness.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Thank you, DOUGH, for getting back to us. I’m glad you and your wife were able to come to an agreement.

Prayers for your family.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Through prayer I have discerned that I am being a little selfish at this moment, it is difficult for a husband who loves his beautiful wife to abstain at times. That is my sinful and selfish nature.

How does that work? Wouldn’t you have to abstain for 8 weeks, possibly more ,after the baby? Wouldn’t your wife’s health be a little frail after 5 back to back pregnancies? Wouldn’t you be too tired for the “marital embrace” after having to work and then stay up all night with a baby? Please, explain to me how having another baby leads to more sex. I hope you aren’t just putting all of the extra work on your wife.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

right. and for OPs family-- at least for his wife (and that’s plenty) she has stated hers is serious reason to avoid preganacy now. not to travel europe. not to pursue a degree. but because she has 4 kids and the youngest is still small. how dare we suggest her reasons may be tainted by selfishness, weakness, or any form of shrinking from one’s holy duties.

her reasons may not be enough for some families. but it’s enough for Mrs OP, who is holy, self sacrificing, good and generous (according to Mr OP.) if ***she ***says it’s just reason, than you betcha i believe her. .

life-is-beautiful, of course hard work sanctifies us. but employing prudence is a virtuous practice. and trustuing one’s spouse to know her body/ mind/ limits is a work of charity which OP should show his wife.

we have ten kids born and 2 in heaven. i have discerned serious reason to avoide further pregnancy-- serious reason that is not up for public polling. if my husband asked his friends or catholic online community “gee. do you think my wife has good reason to avoid pregnancy? i don’t.” i would be hurt to my very core that my husband dismissed my concerns and discernment. especially since i’ve demonstrated, like OPs wife, that i really am committed to being an obedient daughter of the church.

:clapping:

I appreciate all of your answers and replies. As you all know NFP is difficult, I am a very active and involved Father, making dinner, doing dishes, changing diapers and such. I truly think that being a mommy of little ones is the most demanding job in the world, albeit so rewarding. I my wife knows that.

Through prayer I have discerned that I am being a little selfish at this moment, it is difficult for a husband who loves his beautiful wife to abstain at times. That is my sinful and selfish nature. That is also the beauty if NFP, because through my struggle I have had to learn to listen in a different way to my spouse, and also convey my feelings and difficulties to her in a loving way, so that she doesn’t feel guilty. Our society is one that delivers everything to us instantly, and it is so easy to want what we want NOW. But I have lifted my stuggles up to Christ and the Blessed Mother, and they will provide my strength in times of weakness.

 

[DOUGH]

How does that work? Wouldn’t you have to abstain for 8 weeks, possibly more ,after the baby? Wouldn’t your wife’s health be a little frail after 5 back to back pregnancies? Wouldn’t you be too tired for the “marital embrace” after having to work and then stay up all night with a baby? Please, explain to me how having another baby leads to more sex. I hope you aren’t just putting all of the extra work on your wife.

You are absolutely crazy, 1st af all the pregnancies are not back to back, Our family works as a team, through the strength of Christ and support of Mother Church our love grows more and more intimate daily as a couple, both emotionally and as a result physically. We have NEVER, NEVER felt that having babies or a large family is as you put it “extra work” We see that as a tremendous blessing and I at least feel that those who se it otherwise are deeply mistaken.

This morning before I left for work my wife and I hugged for a few minutes, are oldest 2 are in school and as we hugged we looked into the living room to see our 4yr old “reading” a book to his little 19 month old sister, as she was intensely focused on his story, smiling at her big brother. Those beautiful little moments are amazing, and although there are many difficult moments as well and times of exhaustion the beauty out weighs the difficulties.

 

[monicatholic]

this is the most wonderful thing i’ve read on CAF all year:

Through prayer I have discerned that I am being a little selfish at this moment, it is difficult for a husband who loves his beautiful wife to abstain at times. That is my sinful and selfish nature. That is also the beauty if NFP, because through my struggle I have had to learn to listen in a different way to my spouse, and also convey my feelings and difficulties to her in a loving way, so that she doesn’t feel guilty. Our society is one that delivers everything to us instantly, and it is so easy to want what we want NOW. But I have lifted my stuggles up to Christ and the Blessed Mother, and they will provide my strength in times of weakness.

mrs. OP is a very blessed woman.

 

[Marine03]

I have to be honest. I hate NFP. As a convert I have really grippled with this issue with my wife. To me, NFP does and doesn’t make sense. If a wear condom, I prevent sperm from fertilizing the egg, but if I wait till there is no egg (not 100% sure) then I prevent the sperm from fertilizing the egg. The whole goal is to NOT have kids until we are BOTH ready. BTW we have two sons

To me, it puts so much stress on me wondering “ok, we just made love, I hope she is not pregnant” which make the whole act of love making…stressful

My atheist friend says we are so stupid as Catholics for telling AID ridden country’s NOT to practice safe sex (Africa).

 

[Jea9]

Frankly, I hope the moderators close this thread soon. I think it is incredibly unfair to be speculating about the motives and values of Mrs. OP, especially since she is probably entirely unaware of the existence of this thread. Mr. OP came here with what appeared to me to be a rather simple and straightforward question: How does a couple find a way to understand each other when discerning serious/just/grave reasons for using NFP to avoid? Some of the talk in the last day or so about the character of Mrs. OP and her selfish/unselfish reasons have long since ceased to be productive. A lot of this is pure gossip and sounds very judgemental. I agree with the other poster (can’t remember her name, but she is a mother of 10) who said that this conversation is totally unfair to the wife of OP.

Edited to Add: Just saw the name of the poster with whom I agree - Monicatholic, thank you for being the voice of wisdom here.

I don’t think anyone is being unfair. As usual, these types of threads are incredibly controversial for the sole reason that we all look at a situation and apply what we are doing in OUR lives to it. I pointed to what my husband and I are doing, Monicatholic pointed to what her family is doing, Truly did as well. It is in our nature to personalize these things, and so when we get involved in such heated topics, it is only natural to apply our personal experiences to that of the OP.

Those of us that questioned motives were merely pointing out that since the husband and wife did not agree on whether to use NFP at this time, it might be good to evaluate the reasons to make sure that they are not selfish. No one gave a list of appropriate reasons to delay more children. And all posters seemed to be advocating communication.

I appreciate all of your answers and replies. As you all know NFP is difficult, I am a very active and involved Father, making dinner, doing dishes, changing diapers and such. I truly think that being a mommy of little ones is the most demanding job in the world, albeit so rewarding. I my wife knows that.

Through prayer I have discerned that I am being a little selfish at this moment, it is difficult for a husband who loves his beautiful wife to abstain at times. That is my sinful and selfish nature. That is also the beauty if NFP, because through my struggle I have had to learn to listen in a different way to my spouse, and also convey my feelings and difficulties to her in a loving way, so that she doesn’t feel guilty. Our society is one that delivers everything to us instantly, and it is so easy to want what we want NOW. But I have lifted my stuggles up to Christ and the Blessed Mother, and they will provide my strength in times of weakness.

I am so glad you reached an agreement! As I said, my husband and I are not called to use NFP right now, but it is something we discussed after the birth of our son. If you don’t communicate properly you can’t understand the other person’s intentions and motivations.

It is wonderful to see your love for you wife come through on your posts BTW.

 

[mommamaree]

I don’t think anyone is being unfair. As usual, these types of threads are incredibly controversial for the sole reason that we all look at a situation and apply what we are doing in OUR lives to it. I pointed to what my husband and I are doing, Monicatholic pointed to what her family is doing, Truly did as well. It is in our nature to personalize these things, and so when we get involved in such heated topics, it is only natural to apply our personal experiences to that of the OP.

Those of us that questioned motives were merely pointing out that since the husband and wife did not agree on whether to use NFP at this time, it might be good to evaluate the reasons to make sure that they are not selfish. No one gave a list of appropriate reasons to delay more children. And all posters seemed to be advocating communication.

Okay, Jea9, I apologize. Obviously I was getting a very wrong impression, and DOUGH seemed to appreciate all the posters had to say. My mistake. I am very emotional today already, with only a month left until my third baby is due, and I am wearing my heart on my sleeve a lot! I guess it affected how I was reading other people’s posts in this thread, huh? I will try to be more aware of that in the future, and I really appreciate the fact that you let me have my mini-meltdown without coming back with a scathing reply.

 

[mommamaree]

mrs. OP is a very blessed woman.

Yes, she really is!