NFP question

[ahs]

No. No one chooses to make it meaningless, but most likely struggles, and often terribly, to see the point, especially when there seems to be no answers…

That is true. And then, in that struggle a person can choose to offer up their suffering or to not. They can choose to suffer in a “meaningless” fashion if they choose, or they can give meaning to it if they choose.

I have yet to hear or read anything whatsoever that makes sense or definitively declares from somewhere that God Himself or the Holy Spirit or Jesus said sex is only for having kids. But the church says so…

I think a couple of others had answered this, that sex, by its very nature, yields in procreation and unification. It simply does that, and procreation and unification are simply ends and aspects of the marital act. To say that you must see some Scriptural proof from God that sex is for having kids would be similar, in my humble opinion, to saying you need to see proof that inhaling is only for bringing air into your lungs.

The only intercourse otherwise allowed without wishing to conceive is via NFP, which limits when couples can have sex.

Just to touch on this (I think others have covered the rest of you concerns pretty clearly): NFP does not limit when you can have sex. The condition that has made it necessary for a couple to avoid cenception is what limits when a couple can have sex. NFP helps you find the days when you CAN have sex during this time when a condition has limited you.

 

[searching04]

You could also work towards accepting children lovingly as God sends them. No one is REQUIRED to abstain or use NFP.

This is the total “cop out” answer. The church puts this out, throws its hand over its hears and says “la, la, la, can’t hear you.” For goodness sake, why can you not just admit that the church requires one of two things - keep having kids if you want to have sex with your spouse, or don’t have sex? Why can’t the church just say it like it is? It is total bull that couples are not required to abstain or use NFP - THEY ARE THE ONLY TWO CHOICES PROVIDED BY THE CHURCH! Of course one or the other is REQURED!

The Church’s teachings on sex are beautiful and ordered with our ultimate happiness in heaven in mind. It consistently teaches us about God’s design for men and women and for marriage.

 

[ColNY]

Nate13;8414513:

Comparing something like using contraceptives or having orgasms in your marriage in nonChurch approved ways to something like stealing which hurts others doesn;t seem like I very good example to me.

Thank you!

Thou shalt not have sex with my spouse unless we want kids is not one of the 10 commandants. Thou shall not steal is, however.

It surprises me the number of people who miss the point–that there comes a time in married life when you have just reason to say your family is complete, and yet the method(s) with which to avoid that put limits on how you freely you can express your unitive love for one another. Rather than compassion and understanding–there’s judgement and condemnation for even thinking that the church maybe should really revisit this issue, at the very least. Real Christ like, wouldn’t you say?

 

[kristacecilia]

searching04:
NO. You are putting your hands over YOUR ears and doing the “Lalala” dance here.

The Church has 2000 years of teaching PLUS WAS GIVEN THE AUTHORITY OF CHRIST. It always puts our ultimate happiness and health above anything else.

The Church teaches that children are ALWAYS a blessing. That marriage should ALWAYS be ordered towards union and procreation. “Life giving and love giving”.

The Church is like a mother who sees the big picture where we cannot. You are acting like the stubborn, spoiled child who keeps insisting you must know better than she does and that you won’t agree with her until she says what you want her to say, even if that means eternal misery.

 

[kristacecilia]

Calliso;8414553:

Thank you!

Thou shalt not have sex with my spouse unless we want kids is not one of the 10 commandants. Thou shall not steal is, however.

It surprises me the number of people who miss the point–that there comes a time in married life when you have just reason to say your family is complete, and yet the method(s) with which to avoid that put limits on how you freely you can express your unitive love for one another. Rather than compassion and understanding–there’s judgement and condemnation for even thinking that the church maybe should really revisit this issue, at the very least. Real Christ like, wouldn’t you say?

Actually, we get the point. The point is that we submit to Rome. Rome has spoken on this matter definitively.

We get the point that our souls are worth more than earthly pleasure and that self-discipline and self-sacrifice are noble things.

We get that we don’t always get what we want, but we always get what we need.

 

[Em_in_FL]

This is the total “cop out” answer. The church puts this out, throws its hand over its hears and says “la, la, la, can’t hear you.” For goodness sake, why can you not just admit that the church requires one of two things - keep having kids if you want to have sex with your spouse, or don’t have sex? Why can’t the church just say it like it is? It is total bull that couples are not required to abstain or use NFP - THEY ARE THE ONLY TWO CHOICES PROVIDED BY THE CHURCH! Of course one or the other is REQURED!

It’s not “the church” that just simply declares it that way…
It’s the way GOD DESIGNED us.

And it’s rather nifty that God actually designed periodic fertility as well… so that we COULD still have sex when it wasn’t prudent to have another child.

 

[searching04]

Calliso;8414553:

Thank you!

Thou shalt not have sex with my spouse unless we want kids is not one of the 10 commandants. Thou shall not steal is, however.

It surprises me the number of people who miss the point–that there comes a time in married life when you have just reason to say your family is complete, and yet the method(s) with which to avoid that put limits on how you freely you can express your unitive love for one another. Rather than compassion and understanding–there’s judgement and condemnation for even thinking that the church maybe should really revisit this issue, at the very least. Real Christ like, wouldn’t you say?

Well - BINGO!

 

[searching04]

NO. You are putting your hands over YOUR ears and doing the “Lalala” dance here.

The Church has 2000 years of teaching PLUS WAS GIVEN THE AUTHORITY OF CHRIST. It always puts our ultimate happiness and health above anything else.

The Church teaches that children are ALWAYS a blessing. That marriage should ALWAYS be ordered towards union and procreation. “Life giving and love giving”.

The Church is like a mother who sees the big picture where we cannot. You are acting like the stubborn, spoiled child who keeps insisting you must know better than she does and that you won’t agree with her until she says what you want her to say, even if that means eternal misery.

No, I just flatly disagree and live it every stinkin’ day.

Where has anyone said - me, included - say kids are not a blessing? Just because we do not want and cannot afford more then the four we have, you assume I believe kids are not a blessing?

 

[Em_in_FL]

Thank you!

Thou shalt not have sex with my spouse unless we want kids is not one of the 10 commandants. Thou shall not steal is, however.

It surprises me the number of people who miss the point–that there comes a time in married life when you have just reason to say your family is complete, and yet the method(s) with which to avoid that put limits on how you freely you can express your unitive love for one another. Rather than compassion and understanding–there’s judgement and condemnation for even thinking that the church maybe should really revisit this issue, at the very least. Real Christ like, wouldn’t you say?

It’s part of the SACRAMENT of Marriage, though…
If you totally want to remove the SACRAMENTAL nature of marriage then it’s easy to tear it apart…

Honestly - the “just reason” for avoiding children needs to be TRULY JUST. It’s quite logical that sacrificing a “good” would be terribly challenging if it wasn’t for a REALLY REALLY GOOD REASON…

 

[Em_in_FL]

No, I just flatly disagree and live it every stinkin’ day.

Where has anyone said - me, included - say kids are not a blessing? Just because we do not want and cannot afford more then the four we have, you assume I believe kids are not a blessing?

Is “not wanting” more children really just?
Would it be *impossible *for God to financially bless you if you were to submit to the moral teachings of His church?

 

[searching04]

ColNY;8414664:

Actually, we get the point. The point is that we submit to Rome. Rome has spoken on this matter definitively.

Yes, Rome has spoken. And in the article posted earlier trying to set the record straight, even it said that there was a MAJORITY on the commission that believed contraception was in essense OK, but once the documents were leaked, quit trying to persuade the Pope, who then made the decision over time that it (the pill) was wrong.

We get the point that our souls are worth more than earthly pleasure and that self-discipline and self-sacrifice are noble things.

We get that we don’t always get what we want, but we always get what we need.

 

[ColNY]

This is terribly condescending. You don’t know how old she is. I will tell you, again, that we are due with our 7th child in dec and I’m just shy of 40. What difference does that make? Not one iota. No one on this thread, not one single person has advocated having as many children as physically possible. We are advocating responsible parenthood, just like the Church. Total or periodic abstinence if you have a grave/serious/just reason for limiting births…

It’s not about age. . it’s about the fact that she is obviously still in a position, like you, in which becoming pregnant is not an issue. Before you judge MY post, consider that I’m posting from the perspective of someone who has reached a point (I won’t even say age–because for some women, it could be younger or older) in which while I’m still, to an extent, fertile (who knows HOW fertile) but for a variety of just reasons, not the least of which is my health, our days of being able to say “bring it on” when it comes to more children is OVER. And there are many more like me who are coming to the conclusion: IF NFP doesn’t work now, so that’s it? I don’t think so. You are obviously not at that point yet to simply say “abstain” —neither is the other poster whom you claim I was condescending. I’m saying, when you get to that point, when your cycles start to make it harder to determine what’s fertile or not, and your periods of abstinence grow longer,when you and your spouse are abstaining more than you’re able hto have sex, then feel free to say “abstain”. I don’t give advice to someone when I haven’t been in their shoes, since I know, one size doesn’t fit all with anything in life. I’m suggesting you don’t either. If you have been, then feel free to share how that worked for you.

And maybe no one on this board has said have as many children as possible, but there are some judgemental undertones that if you don’t have a large family, obviously you’re not Catholic enough, that you don’t have a good enough reason, just enough reason not to. That you’re “selfish” and “sinful” if you wish to continue to enjoy a unitive relationship with your spouse without the possibility of that union ending in children that you cannot responsibly carry. It’s one thing to tell lustful teenagers to abstain, to wait. It’s another to tell a married middle aged couple on the brink of menopause, to just stop. I pray, someday, that the Vatican will respect and understand this.

 

[searching04]

It’s part of the SACRAMENT of Marriage, though…
If you totally want to remove the SACRAMENTAL nature of marriage then it’s easy to tear it apart…

Honestly - the “just reason” for avoiding children needs to be TRULY JUST. It’s quite logical that sacrificing a “good” would be terribly challenging if it wasn’t for a REALLY REALLY GOOD REASON…

Love your posts. However -

It is the couple that has to decide what that just reason is. There is no manual on that. But we are told unless there is a grave, grave reason, we need to always be open to having more kids. Peachy, but there is never an answer to that when a couple’s current situation screams there is no way.

 

[Nate13]

Calliso;8414553:

Thank you!

Thou shalt not have sex with my spouse unless we want kids is not one of the 10 commandants. Thou shall not steal is, however.

It surprises me the number of people who miss the point–that there comes a time in married life when you have just reason to say your family is complete, and yet the method(s) with which to avoid that put limits on how you freely you can express your unitive love for one another. Rather than compassion and understanding–there’s judgement and condemnation for even thinking that the church maybe should really revisit this issue, at the very least. Real Christ like, wouldn’t you say?

Go out and find a Catholic examination of conscience guide. Go to the commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery” and see what that entails. You should see contraception as a sin that falls under that commandment as well a fornication, masturbation, ect… So…yes I’m sorry but contraception does fall under the commandments

 

[searching04]

Is “not wanting” more children really just?
Would it be *impossible *for God to financially bless you if you were to submit to the moral teachings of His church?

Goes back to being taught that nothing is impossible with God. However, couples cannot just ignore their current situation and say “Well, we’re poor, and/or on food stamps, and/or are buried in debt, and/or have a major medical issue, but darn it, let’s have a kid and pray God gives us a bigger house and paycheck and the wife doesn’t die.”

Your questions also says what I keep reiterating - the church says sex is for having kids. Submit to what the church says and pray you can provide for them? Makes no sense unless couples are also to ignore and not use the head that God gave them.

 

[searching04]

It’s not about age. . it’s about the fact that she is obviously still in a position, like you, in which becoming pregnant is not an issue. Before you judge MY post, consider that I’m posting from the perspective of someone who has reached a point (I won’t even say age–because for some women, it could be younger or older) in which while I’m still, to an extent, fertile (who knows HOW fertile) but for a variety of just reasons, not the least of which is my health, our days of being able to say “bring it on” when it comes to more children is OVER. And there are many more like me who are coming to the conclusion: IF NFP doesn’t work now, so that’s it? I don’t think so. You are obviously not at that point yet to simply say “abstain” —neither is the other poster whom you claim I was condescending. I’m saying, when you get to that point, when your cycles start to make it harder to determine what’s fertile or not, and your periods of abstinence grow longer,when you and your spouse are abstaining more than you’re able hto have sex, then feel free to say “abstain”. I don’t give advice to someone when I haven’t been in their shoes, since I know, one size doesn’t fit all with anything in life. I’m suggesting you don’t either. If you have been, then feel free to share how that worked for you.

And maybe no one on this board has said have as many children as possible, but there are some judgemental undertones that if you don’t have a large family, obviously you’re not Catholic enough, that you don’t have a good enough reason, just enough reason not to. That you’re “selfish” and “sinful” if you wish to continue to enjoy a unitive relationship with your spouse without the possibility of that union ending in children that you cannot responsibly carry. It’s one thing to tell lustful teenagers to abstain, to wait. It’s another to tell a married middle aged couple on the brink of menopause, to just stop. I pray, someday, that the Vatican will respect and understand this.

Ditto, ditto, ditto!

 

[searching04]

ColNY;8414664:

Go out and find a Catholic examination of conscience guide. Go to the commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery” and see what that entails. You should see contraception as a sin that falls under that commandment as well a fornication, masturbation, ect… So…yes I’m sorry but contraception does fall under the commandments

You miss Calliso’s point.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Goes back to being taught that nothing is impossible with God. However, couples cannot just ignore their current situation and say “Well, we’re poor, and/or on food stamps, and/or are buried in debt, and/or have a major medical issue, but darn it, let’s have a kid and pray God gives us a bigger house and paycheck and the wife doesn’t die.”

Your questions also says what I keep reiterating - the church says sex is for having kids. Submit to what the church says and pray you can provide for them? Makes no sense unless couples are to ignore and not use the head that God gave them.

You’re right… which is why we have the option to sacrifice in other ways (using our minds and free will in these situations) - through periodic abstinence - in order to get through those difficult times.

Really - the answer is that life is going to *require *SACRIFICE in one way or another in order to conform to moral teachings.
You can pick and choose (free will) where you’re personal sacrifice will lie…
But it’s not going away!

 

[ColNY]

Love your posts. However -

It is the couple that has to decide what that just reason is. There is no manual on that. But we are told unless there is a grave, grave reason, we need to always be open to having more kids. Peachy, but there is never an answer to that when a couple’s current situation screams there is no way.

Bingo! It’s up to the couple to define what constitutes “just” reasons–that comes from The Charter of the Rights of the Family. And ultimately, it’s not until we die that we’ll ever know for sure if all we did in life was enough to gain us entry into Heaven. And God will be the one to judge, not our fellow man. . .and THANK GOD for that.

 

[Calliso]

ColNY;8414664:

Go out and find a Catholic examination of conscience guide. Go to the commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery” and see what that entails. You should see contraception as a sin that falls under that commandment as well a fornication, masturbation, ect… So…yes I’m sorry but contraception does fall under the commandments

Now this makes me curious cause I can;t see how contraception would have anything to do with adultery. Masturbation maybe but even that is a huge stretch.