NFP question

[Em_in_FL]

Now this makes me curious cause I can;t see how contraception would have anything to do with adultery. Masturbation maybe but even that is a huge stretch.

Both contraception and masturbation go against the virtue of chastity, which is “covered” under the Sixth Commandment.

The Catechism discusses these points under that category…
nccbuscc.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml

 

[Nate13]

Nate13;8414753:

Now this makes me curious cause I can;t see how contraception would have anything to do with adultery. Masturbation maybe but even that is a huge stretch.

I believe it stems from where Jesus talked about how the man who has even looked at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart. I also believe the word used for adultery in the commandments had more meaning than we see in the word today if you look at the Hebrew.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Love your posts. However -

It is the couple that has to decide what that just reason is. There is no manual on that. But we are told unless there is a grave, grave reason, we need to always be open to having more kids. Peachy, but there is never an answer to that when a couple’s current situation screams there is no way.

It’s actually not ‘grave, grave reason’. It’s just or serious, something that is more than "we want to take a vacation’ or ‘we want a new car’. There are basic categories: health, economics, physical. It could be okay to say, “we just can’t afford another child right now, so we will use NFP or we will abstain until this changes”. This is prudential judgement, however, it is also quite a good idea to seek out spiritual guidance, esp if the couple doesn’t agree or are having trouble discerning God’s will. It’s easy to say, “we’re done” without a just reason. We need to prayerfully discern. This is the blessing of NFP when needed, a month by month reassessment of what’s important.

 

[Jennifer_J]

It’s not about age. . it’s about the fact that she is obviously still in a position, like you, in which becoming pregnant is not an issue. Before you judge MY post, consider that I’m posting from the perspective of someone who has reached a point (I won’t even say age–because for some women, it could be younger or older) in which while I’m still, to an extent, fertile (who knows HOW fertile) but for a variety of just reasons, not the least of which is my health, our days of being able to say “bring it on” when it comes to more children is OVER. And there are many more like me who are coming to the conclusion: IF NFP doesn’t work now, so that’s it? I don’t think so. You are obviously not at that point yet to simply say “abstain” —neither is the other poster whom you claim I was condescending. I’m saying, when you get to that point, when your cycles start to make it harder to determine what’s fertile or not, and your periods of abstinence grow longer,when you and your spouse are abstaining more than you’re able hto have sex, then feel free to say “abstain”. I don’t give advice to someone when I haven’t been in their shoes, since I know, one size doesn’t fit all with anything in life. I’m suggesting you don’t either. If you have been, then feel free to share how that worked for you.

And maybe no one on this board has said have as many children as possible, but there are some judgemental undertones that if you don’t have a large family, obviously you’re not Catholic enough, that you don’t have a good enough reason, just enough reason not to. That you’re “selfish” and “sinful” if you wish to continue to enjoy a unitive relationship with your spouse without the possibility of that union ending in children that you cannot responsibly carry. It’s one thing to tell lustful teenagers to abstain, to wait. It’s another to tell a married middle aged couple on the brink of menopause, to just stop. I pray, someday, that the Vatican will respect and understand this.

Most NFP classes offer a perimenopause class…have you looked into that? I’m not saying that NFP can’t/doesn’t cause confusion or can be difficult. Believe me, after 6 births and postpartem charting, it can be challenging. That doesn’t mean we give up. Christ calls us to pray and work through our difficulties, not to just throw up our hands and sin and as married couples, we should be communicating and leaning on each other through these times. Contraceptives fail-right? But people are willing to put their faith in them.

Because we have chosen to have a large family says nothing about what your family should look like. We are all called, though, to be selfless. We need to discern carefully what that means.

 

[searching04]

This is terribly condescending. You don’t know how old she is. I will tell you, again, that we are due with our 7th child in dec and I’m just shy of 40. What difference does that make? Not one iota. No one on this thread, not one single person has advocated having as many children as physically possible. We are advocating responsible parenthood, just like the Church. Total or periodic abstinence if you have a grave/serious/just reason for limiting births…

Age makes no difference. But it comes across very well indeed in these threads, as someone mentioned previously, that those of us who have indeed decided we don’t want or cannot afford or are not in a place in life to have 7 children, are somehow wrong and selfish. And that good Catholics will indeed keep having babies no matter what, because God will provide.

People deciding they cannot or should not have more kids are executing responsible parenthood, too. But we are not made to feel that way, especially if we also say a lack of sex is hurting the marriage. We are told to have more sex or have more kids or we have a choice.

Happy that you are in a place in life where you can have 7 kids, really am; I know couples who have 6, 7, 8. You said before that you are not rich and it is a daily struggle, but all your kids are blessings. Kids are blessings. But even at that, can you honestly say you’ve never had a day where you said or thought, “What the heck did we do?”

No one here has ever said a child is not a blessing, but we are not all where we can have seven like you, or maybe not even three, four, or five, or six.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Age makes no difference. But it comes across very well indeed in these threads, as someone mentioned previously, that those of us who have indeed decided we don’t want or cannot afford or are not in a place in life to have 7 children, are somehow wrong and selfish. And that good Catholics will indeed keep having babies no matter what, because God will provide.

People deciding they cannot or should not have more kids are executing responsible parenthood, too. But we are not made to feel that way, especially if we also say a lack of sex is hurting the marriage. We are told to have more sex or have more kids or we have a choice.

Happy that you are in a place in life where you can have 7 kids, really am; I know couples who have 6, 7, 8. You said before that you are not rich and it is a daily struggle, but all your kids are blessings. Kids are blessings. But even at that, can you honestly say you’ve never had a day where you said or thought, “What the heck did we do?”

No one here has ever said a child is not a blessing, but we are not all where we can have seven like you, or maybe not even three, four, or five, or six.

I don’t think it’s about the “number” of children you have by any means… and I don’t think Jennifer J is saying that either…
I think this line in her last post really sums things up…

We are all called, though, to be selfless. We need to discern carefully what that means.

FOR SOME this means embracing a large family.
FOR OTHERS this means sacrificing through abstinence (total or periodic - and THANK GOD for periodic! ).

Marriage is about being selfless… that sacrifice is always going to be hard!

 

[ColNY]

Most NFP classes offer a perimenopause class…have you looked into that? I’m not saying that NFP can’t/doesn’t cause confusion or can be difficult. Believe me, after 6 births and postpartem charting, it can be challenging. That doesn’t mean we give up. Christ calls us to pray and work through our difficulties, not to just throw up our hands and sin and as married couples, we should be communicating and leaning on each other through these times. Contraceptives fail-right? But people are willing to put their faith in them.

Because we have chosen to have a large family says nothing about what your family should look like. We are all called, though, to be selfless. We need to discern carefully what that means.

For the record, I haven’t given up completely on NFP. In fact, I was pretty OK with it until my practioner put some doubts in my head about how sure I was that I was post-peak (i.e. any time of day) and after that, it kept snowballing and the frustration of “well, am I reading this chart RIGHT?” took off from there. That’s when the conversations started about–how effective is this once you hit a certain age? Are we taking risks with health, etc. . Freaked me out more than when I was breastfeeding. I put out (on a different thread) questions about this and there is literature worth looking at before I throw in the rug 100%. I just want to not be worried that I’m putting not one, but two lives in danger.

I’m glad to see someone with a large family say what you just said, as I’ve been around a number of large Catholic families who assume that anyone with less than 4 kids is selfish and if they only have two–well, they’re obviously contracepting. Not necessarily true–either way. As one friend of mine, a former pro-life director has said repeatedly—none of their business. Period.

 

[searching04]

It’s actually not ‘grave, grave reason’. It’s just or serious, something that is more than "we want to take a vacation’ or ‘we want a new car’. There are basic categories: health, economics, physical. It could be okay to say, “we just can’t afford another child right now, so we will use NFP or we will abstain until this changes”. This is prudential judgement, however, it is also quite a good idea to seek out spiritual guidance, esp if the couple doesn’t agree or are having trouble discerning God’s will. It’s easy to say, “we’re done” without a just reason. We need to prayerfully discern. This is the blessing of NFP when needed, a month by month reassessment of what’s important.

Who discerns what is just or serous? Our financial situation really hasn’t changed much in many, many years, and my youngest is now 15. Financially, we are still where we were 8 years ago. Vacations and cars don’t figure into it at all. Could we have more kids and let the rest sleep in the living room? Sure. But is that just and responsible?

In these posts there are people who say that even if the wife cannot, for medical reasons, have another child or it will kill her, that the couple is never ,ever to have sex again. Really? I mean is that REALLY what the church thinks God has in mind for a couple? Just because their sexual activity cannot lead to a child when it is not their choice? The same rings true when couples like me are basically told to go ahead and have more kids, God will provide. God provides, but expects common sense, too, using the head He gave us. Just like couples with 7 kids use their heads to decide to do so.

But I don’t for the life of me believe that God did *not *intend for couples to use their heads and hearts to decide on whether to engage in loving, selfless sexual activity without intercourse to maintain their relationship when kids are not an option, and even when using NFP, as we have for years (NFP). Don’t see it. That is not lust or selfish. It is maintaining a healthy, sexual, intimate relationship with the spouse that God gave you.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Who discerns what is just or serous? Our financial situation really hasn’t changed much in many, many years, and my youngest is now 15. Financially, we are still where we were 8 years ago. Vacations and cars don’t figure into it at all. Could we have more kids and let the rest sleep in the living room? Sure. But is that just and responsible?

In these posts there are people who say that even if the wife cannot, for medical reasons, have another child or it will kill her, that the couple is never ,ever to have sex again. Really? I mean is that REALLY what the church thinks God has in mind for a couple? Just because their sexual activity cannot lead to a child when it is not their choice? The same rings true when couples like me are basically told to go ahead and have more kids, God will provide. God provides, but expects common sense, too, using the head He gave us. Just like couples with 7 kids use their heads to decide to do so.

But I don’t for the life of me believe that God did *not *intend for couples to use their heads and hearts to decide on whether to engage in loving, selfless sexual activity without intercourse to maintain their relationship when kids are not an option, and even when using NFP, as we have for years (NFP). Don’t see it. That is not lust or selfish. It is maintaining a healthy, sexual, intimate relationship with the spouse that God gave you.

The couple through prayer and discernment decide it a reason is just. If a couple is having trouble, consult a priest or spiritual advisor on the matter. No, I can’t read your heart and tell you if your reason is just or serious, but taking it to prayer and discerning is what you have to do.

Sacrifice. Yes, sometimes we have to sacrifice–we happen to sacrifice for a large family and othesr sacrifice with some form of abstinence. And no, it’s not ‘no sex ever again’ because at some point women reach menopause (created by God in his mercy? )

And, for the record, intimacy isn’t all about sex. A friend recently recommended this title and it sounds applicable to this discussion:
amazon.com/gp/product/0743265122/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0743551907&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=036F6VFEYXQ7872SGECY
I haven’t personally read it, though.

 

[ahs]

And ultimately, it’s not until we die that we’ll ever know for sure if all we did in life was enough to gain us entry into Heaven. And God will be the one to judge, not our fellow man.

Nothing we do on earth can gain us entry into Heaven. Heaven is through God’s Mercy, through Jesus Christ who died for us. We are also told in Scripture to work out salvation with fear and trembling…so it would be unwise to amble through life and just wait until death to figure out if you did enough to get into Heaven (though, again, nothing WE can do will earn us Heaven).

Makes no sense unless couples are also to ignore and not use the head that God gave them.

We are to use a WELL FORMED conscience. If your conscience is telling you to do something contrary to God’s Moral Law, it is not well formed.

Marriage is about being selfless… that sacrifice is always going to be hard!

Love this!

In these posts there are people who say that even if the wife cannot, for medical reasons, have another child or it will kill her, that the couple is never ,ever to have sex again. Really? I mean is that REALLY what the church thinks God has in mind for a couple?

Not that a couple can never have sex again, but the couple must have sex that is ordered towards procreation when they do have sex. NFP can help a couple identify the times when they can do this and still be outside the fertile window.

We must also be careful not to set ourselves up in a position that we are judging God’s intentions. We belong to God and serve Him…not the other way around.

 

[Link0126]

You don’t need all those instruments to do NFP. My wife took the classes, learned the chart and after a while didn’t even need the chart anymore. She just goes by the signs of her body.

If there was a serious medical reason to be concerned about pregnancy though she would probably be more strict. But for normal use this seems to be working fine.

 

[searching04]

Nothing we do on earth can gain us entry into Heaven. Heaven is through God’s Mercy, through Jesus Christ who died for us. We are also told in Scripture to work out salvation with fear and trembling…so it would be unwise to amble through life and just wait until death to figure out if you did enough to get into Heaven (though, again, nothing WE can do will earn us Heaven).

We are to use a WELL FORMED conscience. If your conscience is telling you to do something contrary to God’s Moral Law, it is not well formed.

There’s the kicker - my conscience never did and still does not tell me that it is wrong. My heart completely, totally tells me it is perfectly loving and giving and selfless. The only time my conscience kicked in about normal sexual activity was after we heard about the CCC, which tells us things are wrong. Why? Neither my wife nor I believe at all still that things we did were wrong; my conscience never did either. It is out of fear because of wording in the CCC that we follow church teachings, that’s all. My wife and I disagree on it; we follow it.

And again, you really are a presumptive little poster to make a statement like you did about a conscience. Things are not all black and white, like the CCC

Love this!

Not that a couple can never have sex again, but the couple must have sex that is ordered towards procreation when they do have sex. NFP can help a couple identify the times when they can do this and still be outside the fertile window.

We must also be careful not to set ourselves up in a position that we are judging God’s intentions. We belong to God and serve Him…not the other way around.

 

[Jennifer_J]

There’s the kicker - my conscience never did and still does not tell me that it is wrong. My heart completely, totally tells me it is perfectly loving and giving and selfless. The only time my conscience kicked in about normal sexual activity was after we heard about the CCC, which tells us things are wrong. Why? Neither my wife nor I believe at all still that things we did were wrong; my conscience never did either. It is out of fear because of wording in the CCC that we follow church teachings, that’s all. My wife and I disagree on it; we follow it.

Which means you didn’t have a FORMED conscience on these issues before. You did what felt good. This means it wasn’t a mortal sin because you didn’t know. Now that you do know, you are trying to conform your life, that’s commendable. Once upon a time, before we converted, I was on the pill. I thought this was the right thing to do, because that’s what all responsible people did to not get pregnant. I had no idea about mortal sin nor why it would be sinful to take the pill. Then we went through RCIA and I was taught the proper meaning of marital love and sex, but it took a while for me to ‘get it’. We learned NFP because to be honest, it freaked me out to not have ‘control’ and we used it to be obedient (then we used it to conceive ). Over these last 17 years of marriage we have embraced the teachings of the Church in a very real way and we’ve grown in faith and love for each other. I don’t think the poster was being mean or presumptuous. It’s a fact that people who don’t know that something is sinful don’t have a properly formed conscience.

 

[ColNY]

searching04:
Searching04–exactly.

 

[Em_in_FL]

searching04;8417286:

There’s the kicker - my conscience never did and still does not tell me that it is wrong. My heart completely, totally tells me it is perfectly loving and giving and selfless. The only time my conscience kicked in about normal sexual activity was after we heard about the CCC, which tells us things are wrong. Why? Neither my wife nor I believe at all still that things we did were wrong; my conscience never did either. It is out of fear because of wording in the CCC that we follow church teachings, that’s all. My wife and I disagree on it; we follow it.

And again, you really are a presumptive little poster to make a statement like you did about a conscience. Things are not all black and white, like the CCC

Which means you didn’t have a FORMED conscience on these issues before. You did what felt good. This means it wasn’t a mortal sin because you didn’t know. Now that you do know, you are trying to conform your life, that’s commendable. Once upon a time, before we converted, I was on the pill. I thought this was the right thing to do, because that’s what all responsible people did to not get pregnant. I had no idea about mortal sin nor why it would be sinful to take the pill. Then we went through RCIA and I was taught the proper meaning of marital love and sex, but it took a while for me to ‘get it’. We learned NFP because to be honest, it freaked me out to not have ‘control’ and we used it to be obedient (then we used it to conceive ). Over these last 17 years of marriage we have embraced the teachings of the Church in a very real way and we’ve grown in faith and love for each other. I don’t think the poster was being mean or presumptuous. It’s a fact that people who don’t know that something is sinful don’t have a properly formed conscience.

YES! What she said!

I would try to not see this as an insult (because it’s truly not!)… if you weren’t properly informed about morality, how would your conscience automatically come to that conclusion?
We are human - all of us steeped in Original Sin - we simply aren’t born with this innate morality… that’s why the Church is here to lead us and guide us.
And sometimes it’s REALLY hard to trust in that… I know (personal experience and all!)…

You also need to forgive yourself of any past misunderstandings as well… a “mortal sin” requires “… full knowledge and deliberate consent.”… so take it easy on yourself.

 

[Wardog]

The problem begins when the Catholic teachings shift from sex education to sex training. Based on the posts here and on the other forums, here is what I have gathered for the approved sex manual to make it easier for married couples to meet the Church rules.

Start by acknowledging you want a baby. Don’t completely undress, as this will cause lustful thoughts unrelated to baby making. Insert Tab A into Slot B. Repeat as necessary, but make sure you finish on the down stroke. Premature ejaculation is a sin, so don’t let that happen. Oral sex, anal sex, mutual masturbation, and sex toys are major sins. The only allowed position is the woman on her back with legs spread, man on top. If the woman is on top, this may lead her to sin by thinking she can have a dominant role in the relationship. It may even lead to her thinking that she can be a priest. Use NFP only to make sure you are having sex during your fertile period. If you have grave reasons, you may have sex during her infertile period, but only if you don’t think you are having sex at a time that she can’t get pregnant. The Church won’t define for you what grave reasons could be for you to do this, but rest assured that anything you come up with is sinful. You can enjoy the sex, but not too much, because that detracts from the procreative reason for sex and is sinful. Once the woman has conceived, stop having sex, because there is no longer any procreative reason to do so. Thus this is a sin. If a man has returned from war with his wedding tackle damaged, he cannot marry because he cannot carry out his husbandly duty to impregnate his wife. If he is already married, then he and his wife must abstain from any sex because there is no procreative reason to do so. Same for an elderly couple. Any couple who knowingly marry with the intent to not have children are sinning in the eyes of the Church.
That about covers it. If I left anything out, please feel free to add to it. If there are any errors in this sex manual, please free to call them out with your own take on them. References would be appreciated
This sex manual has been called insulting, uncharitable, condescending and mean-spirited. I will add rude, crude, lewd and probably socially unacceptable. So far no one has called it a wrong interpertation of the Church rules on sex in marriage.

 

[davidv]

The problem begins when the Catholic teachings shift from sex education to sex training. Based on the posts here and on the other forums, here is what I have gathered for the approved sex manual to make it easier for married couples to meet the Church rules.

Start by acknowledging you want a baby. Don’t completely undress, as this will cause lustful thoughts unrelated to baby making. Insert Tab A into Slot B. Repeat as necessary, but make sure you finish on the down stroke. Premature ejaculation is a sin, so don’t let that happen. Oral sex, anal sex, mutual masturbation, and sex toys are major sins. The only allowed position is the woman on her back with legs spread, man on top. If the woman is on top, this may lead her to sin by thinking she can have a dominant role in the relationship. It may even lead to her thinking that she can be a priest. Use NFP only to make sure you are having sex during your fertile period. If you have grave reasons, you may have sex during her infertile period, but only if you don’t think you are having sex at a time that she can’t get pregnant. The Church won’t define for you what grave reasons could be for you to do this, but rest assured that anything you come up with is sinful. You can enjoy the sex, but not too much, because that detracts from the procreative reason for sex and is sinful. Once the woman has conceived, stop having sex, because there is no longer any procreative reason to do so. Thus this is a sin. If a man has returned from war with his wedding tackle damaged, he cannot marry because he cannot carry out his husbandly duty to impregnate his wife. If he is already married, then he and his wife must abstain from any sex because there is no procreative reason to do so. Same for an elderly couple. Any couple who knowingly marry with the intent to not have children are sinning in the eyes of the Church.
That about covers it. If I left anything out, please feel free to add to it. If there are any errors in this sex manual, please free to call them out with your own take on them. References would be appreciated
This sex manual has been called insulting, uncharitable, condescending and mean-spirited. I will add rude, crude, lewd and probably socially unacceptable. So far no one has called it a wrong interpertation of the Church rules on sex in marriage.

Then let me be the first one to declare that it is based a wrong interpretation of the Church’s teaching. Since it really is off topic, I will not explain why in this thread.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Then let me be the first one to declare that it is based a wrong interpretation of the Church’s teaching. Since it really is off topic, I will not explain why in this thread.

I’ll second that. It is NOT a true interpretation of Church teaching (though I think when you posted this exact post before I ALSO said something similar).

 

[Nate13]

@Wardog
Copy pasting posts now…so unoriginal You didn’t even fix the last step by step guide you posted with respect to my criticism!

 

[Em_in_FL]

The problem begins when the Catholic teachings shift from sex education to sex training. Based on the posts here and on the other forums, here is what I have gathered for the approved sex manual to make it easier for married couples to meet the Church rules.

… cute… but far off base in so many ways…
If you’re being serious about wanting me to fix the errors then here you go…
(otherwise I’m sorry if you were being sarcastic… but I’ll answer anyway )…

Start by acknowledging you want a baby. Don’t completely undress, as this will cause lustful thoughts unrelated to baby making. Insert Tab A into Slot B. Repeat as necessary, but make sure you finish on the down stroke. Premature ejaculation is a sin, so don’t let that happen. Oral sex, anal sex, mutual masturbation, and sex toys are major sins. The only allowed position is the woman on her back with legs spread, man on top. If the woman is on top, this may lead her to sin by thinking she can have a dominant role in the relationship. It may even lead to her thinking that she can be a priest.

There are times you may not “want” a baby (for just reasons!)… that’s okay… deal with it in a moral way.
*Accidental *premature ejaculation is not a sin… *accidents *happen.
Oral sex, sex toys, and other forms of foreplay are not sinful, in and of themselves… some couples find them helpful, others may have issues with them. If the sex is ultimately procreative and unitive, you’re good.
Positions… well, some of us are more creative than others.

Use NFP only to make sure you are having sex during your fertile period. If you have grave reasons, you may have sex during her infertile period, but only if you don’t think you are having sex at a time that she can’t get pregnant. The Church won’t define for you what grave reasons could be for you to do this, but rest assured that anything you come up with is sinful. You can enjoy the sex, but not too much, because that detracts from the procreative reason for sex and is sinful. Once the woman has conceived, stop having sex, because there is no longer any procreative reason to do so. Thus this is a sin.

Wrong all around and clear misunderstanding of the meaning of the word “procreative”.
You can most certainly have procreative sex while pregnant, and even if you’re infertile. “Procreative sex” does not require fertility.
There are plenty of good reasons for avoid conception at a given time… for those who have difficulty discerning those reasons - they can speak with a priest.

If a man has returned from war with his wedding tackle damaged, he cannot marry because he cannot carry out his husbandly duty to impregnate his wife. If he is already married, then he and his wife must abstain from any sex because there is no procreative reason to do so. Same for an elderly couple. Any couple who knowingly marry with the intent to not have children are sinning in the eyes of the Church.
That about covers it. If I left anything out, please feel free to add to it. If there are any errors in this sex manual, please free to call them out with your own take on them. References would be appreciated

See above… procreative doesn’t have to mean fertile.
Premarital permanent impotence would make the marriage invalid - yes - because it cannot be consummated. This says nothing about fertility.

This sex manual has been called insulting, uncharitable, condescending and mean-spirited. I will add rude, crude, lewd and probably socially unacceptable. So far no one has called it a wrong interpertation of the Church rules on sex in marriage.

Actually… pretty wrong in a variety of ways…