NFP sinful

[Nate13]

Only if the Church were seriously pushing it. I get the impression that the average Catholic is a little embarrassed to talk about NFP in the normal course of life.

The prevalent opinion is that people have no ability to control their sexual behavior, as exemplified in that idiotic ad featuring a women carrying in groceries: …“suddenly you find yourself pregnant” the narrator commiserates…I get so irritated; if you’re old enough to drive a car, you’re old enough to figure out how pregnancy ‘happens’, for goodness sake.

As the serious side effects of the pill become more and more commonly known it will not be so weird to talk about it. That is one bonus of this whole contraceptive mandate. It has brought this topic to the forefront on a lot of national programs and I have heard the awful health effects of the pill brought up on many occasions. Many people will become more well informed about contraceptives because of this.

 

[Nate13]

So in that case…people shouldn’t judge people who use ABC. ABC and NFP used incorrectly are both mortal sin.

As a whole I think you can make a pretty good call about your whole parish based on how many children people are having. In individual cases I think you take quite a risk in passing judgement on a couple because they do not have a lot of kids. I know I would feel really stupid if I brought it up when talking to someone and they were avoiding because of a serious health risk or had fertility problems. Supposedly something like 10% of couples have fertility problems. Now if someone directly tells you they are using contraceptives or discusses their use of NFP for reasons that are obviously superfluous I would not be abashed to say something.

 

[maryjk]

So in that case…people shouldn’t judge people who use ABC. ABC and NFP used incorrectly are both mortal sin.

ABC, used as birth control, is always sinful. Depending on the reasons behind NFP, it can be sinful. Big difference. But we shouldn’t be judging anyone based on their number of children.

As a whole I think you can make a pretty good call about your whole parish based on how many children people are having.

I have one child. I bet you would be wrong in your “pretty good call.”

We shouldn’t be passing judgement on anyone. Find out someone is using ABC, and you should be trying to educate them, not judge them. Find someone using NFP because they like their twice a year vacation to Europe, educate them, don’t judge them.

 

[joclucsylv]

As a whole I think you can make a pretty good call about your whole parish based on how many children people are having. In individual cases I think you take quite a risk in passing judgement on a couple because they do not have a lot of kids. I know I would feel really stupid if I brought it up when talking to someone and they were avoiding because of a serious health risk or had fertility problems. Supposedly something like 10% of couples have fertility problems. Now if someone directly tells you they are using contraceptives or discusses their use of NFP for reasons that are obviously superfluous I would not be abashed to say something.

Yup. One can definitely tell from the parish what people are using. I live in a small town so we tend to know eachother’s business lol. In my case…most are on ABC. One is absolutey 100 percent open to life as she has had 17 kids including miscarriages. She is to be commended.

What is sad is I have never ever heard a priest speak of birthcontrol, NFP, being open to life. Also…the closest NFP teaching couple is 6 hours away downstate from where I live. Perhaps the church is somewhat to blame for so many people using contraceptives. The only way I knew contraceptives were wrong was from my mom. It was certainly nothing I learned in catechism class or marriage prep.

 

[Nate13]

I have one child. I bet you would be wrong in your “pretty good call.”

We shouldn’t be passing judgement on anyone. Find out someone is using ABC, and you should be trying to educate them, not judge them. Find someone using NFP because they like their twice a year vacation to Europe, educate them, don’t judge them.

You should have read the rest of my post…

In individual cases I think you take quite a risk in passing judgement on a couple because they do not have a lot of kids. I know I would feel really stupid if I brought it up when talking to someone and they were avoiding because of a serious health risk or had fertility problems.

If someone brought up while talking to me that they used contraceptives or expressed an opinion of what the Church taught that was not correct, I would feel it as my duty to express true Church teaching to them. I would never take it upon myself to do this based purely on the number of children someone had though.

The purpose of making a judgement is not to pump myself up on how holy I am compared to someone else or to put someone else down. Rather you make a judgement as to whether or not you should take it upon yourself to advise someone of Church teaching when they make it obvious they do not know it. Only having 1 kid is not an indicator of someone who does not know Church teaching. A parish full of people with almost no kids is a clear indication that the people as a whole do not know Church teaching. That was my point.

 

[Gidras05]

Yup. One can definitely tell from the parish what people are using. I live in a small town so we tend to know eachother’s business lol. In my case…most are on ABC. One is absolutey 100 percent open to life as she has had 17 kids including miscarriages. She is to be commended.

What is sad is I have never ever heard a priest speak of birthcontrol, NFP, being open to life. Also…the closest NFP teaching couple is 6 hours away downstate from where I live. Perhaps the church is somewhat to blame for so many people using contraceptives. The only way I knew contraceptives were wrong was from my mom. It was certainly nothing I learned in catechism class or marriage prep.

Seriously, ^This.

This is the reason the Catholic Church is undergoing a lot of stress within itself. So many people are becoming “Cafeteria Catholics”, and so many people don’t even really know what they’re doing is wrong.

And to me, the basis for most of this is in our lack of catechesis. Even after people learn that the Catholic Church frowns on Contraception, for example, they might still choose to do it because they don’t really know -why-.

The Church NEEDS to step up its Catechesis. The Church needs to offer more services for adults and group studies. There’s already a decent amount of youth group involvement, but even still, there’s always room for improvement.

 

[maryjk]

You should have read the rest of my post…

I did. I was just picking.

It just annoys me when people claim to know who is using ABC and who isn’t.

If someone brought up while talking to me that they used contraceptives or expressed an opinion of what the Church taught that was not correct, I would feel it as my duty to express true Church teaching to them. I would never take it upon myself to do this based purely on the number of children someone had though.

The purpose of making a judgement is not to pump myself up on how holy I am compared to someone else or to put someone else down. Rather you make a judgement as to whether or not you should take it upon yourself to advise someone of Church teaching when they make it obvious they do not know it. Only having 1 kid is not an indicator of someone who does not know Church teaching. A parish full of people with almost no kids is a clear indication that the people as a whole do not know Church teaching. That was my point.

I would agree if you changed it from “is a clear indication” to “could be a clear indication.”

 

[seekerz]

What is sad is I have never ever heard a priest speak of birthcontrol, NFP, being open to life. Also…the closest NFP teaching couple is 6 hours away downstate from where I live. Perhaps the church is somewhat to blame for so many people using contraceptives. The only way I knew contraceptives were wrong was from my mom. It was certainly nothing I learned in catechism class or marriage prep.

My experience also. It’s all well and good to say this is wrong and that is right, but most people have to live in the real world where some can barely cover basic amenities even with multiple jobs. People therefore, need real options and I don’t see that they’re getting them.

We have Catholic hospitals (not to mention churches) all over the world, so the idea of an NFP clinic (or at least classes) should not be foreign to so many Catholic women.

 

[sw85]

Seriously, ^This.

This is the reason the Catholic Church is undergoing a lot of stress within itself. So many people are becoming “Cafeteria Catholics”, and so many people don’t even really know what they’re doing is wrong.

And to me, the basis for most of this is in our lack of catechesis. Even after people learn that the Catholic Church frowns on Contraception, for example, they might still choose to do it because they don’t really know -why-.

The Church NEEDS to step up its Catechesis. The Church needs to offer more services for adults and group studies. There’s already a decent amount of youth group involvement, but even still, there’s always room for improvement.

I’m in RCIA and pretty much echo this. Our class has been simply inexcusable. We have not only not gotten particulars, we have largely not gotten the generals, either. I’m fairly sure that the majority of our class wouldn’t be able to tell you the circumstances under which communion can be received licitly.

In my parish at least I have been told (pretty much directly) that the instructors talk down to the class because it’s believed that they are too stupid to understand the fullness of truth.

 

[joclucsylv]

Seriously, ^This.

This is the reason the Catholic Church is undergoing a lot of stress within itself. So many people are becoming “Cafeteria Catholics”, and so many people don’t even really know what they’re doing is wrong.

And to me, the basis for most of this is in our lack of catechesis. Even after people learn that the Catholic Church frowns on Contraception, for example, they might still choose to do it because they don’t really know -why-.

The Church NEEDS to step up its Catechesis. The Church needs to offer more services for adults and group studies. There’s already a decent amount of youth group involvement, but even still, there’s always room for improvement.

Absolutely agree!! Most people in my parish aren’t aware abc is sinful at all. I wouldn’t call them “cafeteria catholics” though because many of them don’t know. Take me for example. The only reason I knew was cause my mom told me. Other than that…I wouldn’t have had a clue. Now…with more support from my parish, the Church, etc. my desicions would have been different. I have grown much in my faith and actually Catholic Answers made me realize how sinful ABC really was. Ya…my mom told me…but I don’t think any of us take our moms seriously until we are mothers ourselves lol!!

So in the case of the sin of a Catholic couple choosing ABC who doesn’t know the teaching of the church, is it really their sin or is it a sin of the heirarchy of the Church? Obviously they are not in mortal sin, because they are not aware of the sin.

 

[dixieagle]

I am still not convinced about NFP bookcat. I honestly think NFP and ABC are wrong. If we are all to be good Catholics, I feel we need to be open to life at all times and not be frustrated with taking a pill or watching a chart.

Then you have been very poorly catechized and educated on the subject.

 

[Nate13]

I did. I was just picking.

It just annoys me when people claim to know who is using ABC and who isn’t.
I would agree if you changed it from “is a clear indication” to “could be a clear indication.”

If you were in a very poor community where it was conceivable that everyone in the Church had clear financial reasons they would be avoiding then yes it might be presumptuous. In my own affluent community I’d say its a pretty good bet, although we actually have quite a few large families and priests that actually bring up the topic of sexual morality occasionally. It’s funny how those two occurrences go hand in hand lol.

 

[joclucsylv]

I’m in RCIA and pretty much echo this. Our class has been simply inexcusable. We have not only not gotten particulars, we have largely not gotten the generals, either. I’m fairly sure that the majority of our class wouldn’t be able to tell you the circumstances under which communion can be received licitly.

In my parish at least I have been told (pretty much directly) that the instructors talk down to the class because it’s believed that they are too stupid to understand the fullness of truth.

I so believe the Church could learn so much from our protestant brothers and sisters. Protestant denominations know how to teach their people!!!

 

[Gidras05]

I’m in RCIA and pretty much echo this. Our class has been simply inexcusable. We have not only not gotten particulars, we have largely not gotten the generals, either. I’m fairly sure that the majority of our class wouldn’t be able to tell you the circumstances under which communion can be received licitly.

In my parish at least I have been told (pretty much directly) that the instructors talk down to the class because it’s believed that they are too stupid to understand the fullness of truth.

I have a friend currently in RCIA that mirrors this exact sentiment.

By the way you’ve been posting, I could hardly ever tell you were in RCIA. You seem incredibly well informed and your posts are always a welcome contribution to all the discussions you participate in.

I think one of my life goals will be to bring Apologetics and Catechesis to a more fulfilled light in the Church and Diocese that may be near where I settle down. I feel called to bring this more to action. It is deplorable.

 

[Gidras05]

Absolutely agree!! Most people in my parish aren’t aware abc is sinful at all. I wouldn’t call them “cafeteria catholics” though because many of them don’t know. Take me for example. The only reason I knew was cause my mom told me. Other than that…I wouldn’t have had a clue. Now…with more support from my parish, the Church, etc. my desicions would have been different. I have grown much in my faith and actually Catholic Answers made me realize how sinful ABC really was. Ya…my mom told me…but I don’t think any of us take our moms seriously until we are mothers ourselves lol!!

So in the case of the sin of a Catholic couple choosing ABC who doesn’t know the teaching of the church, is it really their sin or is it a sin of the heirarchy of the Church? Obviously they are not in mortal sin, because they are not aware of the sin.

Yes this is absolutely true. One of the things that really hit me with ABC (since I used to practice it too) was Humanae Vitae, and particularly the Pope’s prediction of the future where ABC is widely practiced. Practically every single one of his predictions came true, and society has had a HUGE decline in morality as a result.

Well let’s put it this way. The culpability lies within both parties. The laymen have a responsibility to actively seek out the teachings of the Church and to have an informed conscience. If by hierarchy of the Church, you mean RCIA instructors and CCD teachers and Confirmation instructors, then it may not be so much their fault as it is that they may not be as qualified to teach as they should be. They are still culpable though for assuming that their candidates will find their answers on their own.

I should think that Catechesis would be a strong component of any religious study, and that there at least be a Q&A portion, which would cover significant problems.

Lastly, an effort on the Parish to encourage parishoners to ask questions or talk with Spiritual Directors/Priests/Religious about these things, should be employed more often.

 

[joclucsylv]

Then you have been very poorly catechized and educated on the subject.

I don’t think so. One time…yes I was definitely poorly educated on the subject. I am more educated now then ever about ABC and NFP. Since I am not brainwashed to believe NFP is the saintly way to go, I think I can keep more of an open mind then most and see NFP for what it is. ABC and NFP are contraception. They are both against conception. Weather one is using a pill or using a chart, it is contraception.

Like I said earlier, my grandmother’s generation and generations before that were the ones TRULY open to life. I am speaking to my co worker right now and her grandmother had 16 pregnancies. Wow!! No NFP used there my friend!!

 

[Nate13]

I don’t think so. One time…yes I was definitely poorly educated on the subject. I am more educated now then ever about ABC and NFP. Since I am not brainwashed to believe NFP is the saintly way to go, I think I can keep more of an open mind then most and see NFP for what it is. ABC and NFP are contraception. They are both against conception. Weather one is using a pill or using a chart, it is contraception.

Like I said earlier, my grandmother’s generation and generations before that were the ones TRULY open to life. I am speaking to my co worker right now and her grandmother had 16 pregnancies. Wow!! No NFP used there my friend!!

Ecological breastfeeding is a method of NFP. Do you consider that to be wrong as well? It appears to me that you consider doing anything with the intent to prevent children (even abstinence) would be wrong. That position is at least consistent even if its wrong

 

[joclucsylv]

Ecological breastfeeding is a method of NFP. Do you consider that to be wrong as well? It appears to me that you consider doing anything with the intent to prevent children (even abstinence) would be wrong. That position is at least consistent even if its wrong

I work with lactating professionals. Women can still get pregnant while breastfeeding. We work with pregnant moms and babies and we see it all the time.

People shouldn’t marry if they are not open to children. Married people shouldn’t be abstinent.

 

[Nate13]

I work with lactating professionals. Women can still get pregnant while breastfeeding. We work with pregnant moms and babies and we see it all the time.

Mothers who follow the Seven Standards and remain in amenorrhea during the first six months postpartum will have a 99% infertility rate.

physiciansforlife.org/content/view/1421/43/

Actually it can be quite effective if you put a little effort into it. Would you consider the intent of a woman to take steps while breastfeeding as discussed here to be immoral if she did so with the intent to help space births as well as the more obvious intent to feed her baby?

 

[cemiller]

I do not see how not having sex is a sin… There is no passage in the Bible that claims that abstaining is a sin. If a woman has a harder time getting pregnant while breastfeeding and you have intercourse, that neither can be a sin, since God designed it that way.