NFP sinful

[joclucsylv]

physiciansforlife.org/content/view/1421/43/

Actually it can be quite effective if you put a little effort into it. Would you consider the intent of a woman to take steps while breastfeeding as discussed here to be immoral if she did so with the intent to help space births as well as the more obvious intent to feed her baby?

She isn’t watching her ovulation cycle like a hawk. She is open to life at that point.

Like I said we see it time and time again where breastfeeding women get pregnant.

I guess for me, my respect goes to those families who are truly truly open to life. The families of my grandmother’s day.

I guess it just bugs me how NFPers say they are open to life, when in reality they are doing everything in their power to prevent pregnancy. I compare the Catholic families of the early 1900’s to the families of today. The true Catholic families are of yesteryear. The rest of us have all fallen with the world.

 

[maryjk]

If you were in a very poor community where it was conceivable that everyone in the Church had clear financial reasons they would be avoiding then yes it might be presumptuous. In my own affluent community I’d say its a pretty good bet, although we actually have quite a few large families and priests that actually bring up the topic of sexual morality occasionally. It’s funny how those two occurrences go hand in hand lol.

There is more to using NFP, than financial reasons. But even only using financial reasons, unless you can see their checkbook, you don’t know how they are doing. This brings to mind the commercial of the guy on the riding lawnmower, talking about his huge house, multiple cars and being in debt up to his eye balls. “Please help me.”

Now, I agree, there are probably many people using ABC that sit in the pew every week. But to accuse them of using it, sinfully, without evidence is going too far. Instead of accusing, we should be ensuring that these people have the instruction they need.

Now it sounds like your parish does this. But there are many parishes that never hear about NFP.

 

[joclucsylv]

I do not see how not having sex is a sin… There is no passage in the Bible that claims that abstaining is a sin. If a woman has a harder time getting pregnant while breastfeeding and you have intercourse, that neither can be a sin, since God designed it that way.

If a woman doesn’t have sex with her husband, he will surely fall to sin through masterbation.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

What is sad is I have never ever heard a priest speak of birthcontrol, NFP, being open to life. Also…the closest NFP teaching couple is 6 hours away downstate from where I live. Perhaps the church is somewhat to blame for so many people using contraceptives. The only way I knew contraceptives were wrong was from my mom. It was certainly nothing I learned in catechism class or marriage prep.

In my parish there are no regularly scheduled NFP classes. The next parish over offers NFP classes at 11:00 a.m. on a weekday morning, a time that excludes anyone who works during the day. The websites for five other parishes in my city of nearly 800,000 people mention nothing about NFP classes, nor do the websites for the two Catholic hospitals here.

Luna

 

[joclucsylv]

There is more to using NFP, than financial reasons. But even only using financial reasons, unless you can see their checkbook, you don’t know how they are doing. This brings to mind the commercial of the guy on the riding lawnmower, talking about his huge house, multiple cars and being in debt up to his eye balls. “Please help me.”

Now, I agree, there are probably many people using ABC that sit in the pew every week. But to accuse them of using it, sinfully, without evidence is going too far. Instead of accusing, we should be ensuring that these people have the instruction they need.

Now it sounds like your parish does this. But there are many parishes that never hear about NFP.

Families of my grandmother’s time never looked at their checkbook to see if they could afford more kids.

 

[maryjk]

Families of my grandmother’s time never looked at their checkbook to see if they could afford more kids.

They also sent their kids to school without shoes. Or lunch for that matter.

Maybe they should have looked at their checkbooks a little more often.

 

[maryjk]

If a woman doesn’t have sex with her husband, he will surely fall to sin through masterbation.

For how long? How long does a woman have to not have sex with her husband before she is sure that he will sin?

 

[cemiller]

If a woman doesn’t have sex with her husband, he will surely fall to sin through masterbation.

That is just plain untrue. You are basing that on the assumption that a man has no control over his own actions. There are plenty of men that don’t have a problem avioding masturbation…

 

[Red_Meg]

She isn’t watching her ovulation cycle like a hawk. She is open to life at that point.

Like I said we see it time and time again where breastfeeding women get pregnant.

I guess for me, my respect goes to those families who are truly truly open to life. The families of my grandmother’s day.

I guess it just bugs me how NFPers say they are open to life, when in reality they are doing everything in their power to prevent pregnancy. I compare the Catholic families of the early 1900’s to the families of today. The true Catholic families are of yesteryear. The rest of us have all fallen with the world.

Wow. Just wow. I held off posting on this thread because I just didn’t want to get into it, but…

My husband and I have nine children, not counting the three miscarriages. We married young and are extremely fertile. There have been times in our married life when we have prayerfully discerned that my body (or sanity) needed a break between pregnancies. We are “NFPers” as you put it, but apparently not “true Catholics” or “truly truly open to life.”

Any other insults you’d like to hurl my way while you’re at it??

Margaret

 

[joclucsylv]

They also sent their kids to school without shoes. Or lunch for that matter.

Maybe they should have looked at their checkbooks a little more often.

With all do respect Mary, do you think these women had a choice?? They were truly submissive to their men giving them sex whenever they wanted it. Do you think my grandparents/greatgrandparents knew anything about watching cycles. They had farms and God provided. They had true faith unlike people of today who use NFP and supposedly have good reason not to have children.

 

[Gidras05]

Wow. Just wow. I held off posting on this thread because I just didn’t want to get into it, but…

My husband and I have nine children, not counting the three miscarriages. We married young and are extremely fertile. There have been times in our married life when we have prayerfully discerned that my body (or sanity) needed a break between pregnancies. We are “NFPers” as you put it, but apparently not “true Catholics” or “truly truly open to life.”

Any other insults you’d like to hurl my way while you’re at it??

Margaret

I completely agree with Margaret here.

joclucsylv, you forget that the Church has reasons why it allows NFP in the first place. To come to your own conclusion that there is no real reason to practice NFP is to go against Church teaching.

The idea is the prudence NEEDS to be exercised. If it really is out of your financial means to have another child, and you’ve already had 3, for example, then the Church allows NFP as a means of spacing out children, even indefinitely from that point on, since any more might put you in financial risk.

Despite those of yesteryear having done it, society and economy has changed drastically. In my family, there are 4 boys, and my parents struggled to give us bag lunches growing up, with meager portions, and we were on financial aid from the government and food stamps for awhile until my parents barely got back on their feet. When they did, all was well, but I had already moved out of the house. My point being, if my parents had had another child, I don’t know where we would’ve been living.

You cannot speak for everyone, and most of your posts are incredible generalizations. I agreed with you earlier that RCIA and Catechesis is incredibly lacking nowadays, but these assertions of yours are too much.

 

[Nate13]

There is more to using NFP, than financial reasons. But even only using financial reasons, unless you can see their checkbook, you don’t know how they are doing. This brings to mind the commercial of the guy on the riding lawnmower, talking about his huge house, multiple cars and being in debt up to his eye balls. “Please help me.”

Now, I agree, there are probably many people using ABC that sit in the pew every week. But to accuse them of using it, sinfully, without evidence is going too far. Instead of accusing, we should be ensuring that these people have the instruction they need.

Now it sounds like your parish does this. But there are many parishes that never hear about NFP.

Its not accusing. Rather its acknowledging a problem and taking steps to fix it. What I would do myself would be to encourage my priest to speak out on sexual morality if I thought it was a problem in my parish. Its a priests duty to inform his parish on these matters and that is the way in which I would address the issue if I thought it was one. Would you consider that to be an improper response?

 

[joclucsylv]

Wow. Just wow. I held off posting on this thread because I just didn’t want to get into it, but…

My husband and I have nine children, not counting the three miscarriages. We married young and are extremely fertile. There have been times in our married life when we have prayerfully discerned that my body (or sanity) needed a break between pregnancies. We are “NFPers” as you put it, but apparently not “true Catholics” or “truly truly open to life.”

Any other insults you’d like to hurl my way while you’re at it??

Margaret

Well…you have to ask yourself my friend. Ask your heart. With watching your cycle to space your pregnancies are you truly being open to life. The answer is no. The truth hurts sometimes.

 

[Nate13]

She isn’t watching her ovulation cycle like a hawk. She is open to life at that point.

Like I said we see it time and time again where breastfeeding women get pregnant.

I guess for me, my respect goes to those families who are truly truly open to life. The families of my grandmother’s day.

I guess it just bugs me how NFPers say they are open to life, when in reality they are doing everything in their power to prevent pregnancy. I compare the Catholic families of the early 1900’s to the families of today. The true Catholic families are of yesteryear. The rest of us have all fallen with the world.

Lol so your answer is its ok to try as long as you don’t try too hard? I can understand being sad because people are not as open to life and trusting in God as they should be but that in and itself does not make NFP wrong. I think you are letting your frustration at people who are not as trusting that God will provide as you think they should be affect your judgement of the morality of using NFP.

 

[fix]

I still do not see the difference between NFP and ABC as both are deliberately preventing conception. I found the following article which I agree with.

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/42_NFP.pdf

Please read the article and comment. Thank you!

The article contradicts the Church’s moral theology tradition. It is simple wrong. Also, I do not understand how the use of NFP can ever be sinful. It is a morally neutral means. Perhaps some may have a sinful intent, like selfishness, when wanting to avoid children but the means are not sinful.

 

[Red_Meg]

Well…you have to ask yourself my friend. Ask your heart. With watching your cycle to space your pregnancies are you truly being open to life. The answer is no. The truth hurts sometimes.

But what your selling isn’t the truth. It’s your own special brand of Catholicism. THAT’S what hurts. My conscience is clear. When I had a heart scare a few years ago and had to undergo a few months of invasive testing, darn tootin’ I used NFP-- I wasn’t going to put my next baby at risk from all the tests. When I needed carpal tunnel surgery (courtesy of previous pregnancies) to avoid permanent damage to my hands, darn tootin’ I used NFP until I could get through the surgery.

I could go on, but I won’t. Please don’t set yourself up as an authority higher than the Church. If you want to exercise Providentialism, fine. Go ahead. Just don’t tell us that’s the truly Catholic thing to do when our Church says otherwise.

 

[Gidras05]

But what your selling isn’t the truth. It’s your own special brand of Catholicism. THAT’S what hurts. My conscience is clear. When I had heart scare a few years ago and had to undergo a few months of invasive testing, darn tootin’ I used NFP-- I wasn’t going to put my next baby at risk from all the tests. When I needed carpal tunnel surgery (courtesy of previous pregnancies) to avoid permanent damage to my hands, darn tootin’ I used NFP.

I could go on, but I won’t. Please don’t set yourself up as an authority higher than the Church. If you want to exercise Providentialism, fine. Go ahead. Just don’t tell us that’s the truly Catholic thing to do when our Church says otherwise.

Good job Red Meg. I’m with you again. This pretty much is the summary of how we should be responding to this thread. The Church teaches X. Random article and poster teaches Y, a variation (and incredibly radical variation) of X. Church wins by default.

/thread

 

[tm30]

It’s quite simple, really. If you don’t have serious reasons to use NFP, you shouldn’t be using NFP.

Serious reasons don’t include “I just want to have sex without worrying about another child coming along.”

 

[maryjk]

With all do respect Mary, do you think these women had a choice?? They were truly submissive to their men giving them sex whenever they wanted it.

A little abstinence goes a long way. If somehow their husband didn’t know there wasn’t enough food for everyone, shame on him.

Do you think my grandparents/great grandparents knew anything about watching cycles. They had farms and God provided. They had true faith unlike people of today who use NFP and supposedly have good reason not to have children.

Even back when your grandparents were raising children, they knew that having sex could result in a child. If they didn’t have enough to feed the children they had, they could have abstained. They had a choice, they just didn’t exercise it.

I don’t see that as virtuous, nor something to emulate.

I prefer to be alive to raise my child.

 

[Godfollower]

Well…you have to ask yourself my friend. Ask your heart. With watching your cycle to space your pregnancies are you truly being open to life. The answer is no. The truth hurts sometimes.

Would you mind explaining the reasoning underlying your conclusion?

The Church has explained its reasoning relating to NFP versus ABC; the Catechism explains it all fairly clearly.

Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God. “Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility.”

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.

2369 “By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood.”

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

Catechism of the Catholic Church ¶¶ 2367-70.

All I’ve been able to tell from your argument is (to paraphrase): “We have to be open to life, and NFP violates that principle; ergo, NFP is sinful.”

But, if that’s true, then married couples actually have a duty to have sex in the middle of the wife’s cycle every single month, right?

There has to be more to your argument than simply “It’s a sin not to be open to life.” For starters, I assume that you acknowledge the sinfulness of extramarital sex, even though abstention from sex until marriage is obviously not “open to life.” I also assume that you’re fine with using NFP to plan a child (that is, being sure to have relations during the wife’s fertile period to maximize the chances of having a child).

In short, you can’t possibly be arguing (I believe) that the requirement of “openness to life” requires impregnation under all circumstances. So, are there other criteria? Can the couple abstain when one of them is ill? Can they abstain until menopause if the doctor tells them that another pregnancy will kill the mother? If the ovulation test tells them that tonight’s the night but they had a huge argument and really need a little time apart to cool down, do they have to have sex anyway?

What are the particulars of your reasoning?

Or does matrimony require sex in the middle of the wife’s cycle without exception, every single month, until they can’t have children anymore?