NFP technical help please

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👍 Yes to all of this. I’d also recommend some light manipulation. Your bedroom should be completely dark - heavy black out shades, cover the alarm clock, don’t recharge your phone in your bedroom. Zero light. Then, when your fertility goes high and you start to have some slippery mucus you leave a very low watt nightlight on in the bedroom. It can spur ovulation. If you don’t want to do that manipulation, just sleep in complete darkness. Light, particularly blue based lights can wreak havoc with your cycle. If you need to turn a light on in the middle of the night, put a red bulb in a lamp and use that.

Also, have you had a complete physical? It wouldn’t hurt to check your thyroid (and other) levels.

Finally, what’s your BMI? A BMI right in the middle of the healthy range is the best for fertility and consistent cycles. Body fat is metabolically active and can impact your cycle. If you’re too thin, your body will shut down fertility.
What the heck?! The OP said that using a thermometer was too complicated for her morning! I don’t think she wants to use blacklights in her bedroom and put tape on her clock! How will she know whether it’s time to go to work or not? She was looking for something simpler!
 
There are women for whom the Creighton Napro or Billings methods work 100%.
Blessed are they. Thermometers are a waste of time as they measure the increase in temp after ovulation has already started. Blessed are those women who have such regular unchanging cycles that they can predict their ovulation. Even more blessed are those women who have some other indicator like pains or breast tenderness or vulva swelling that they recognise. However for many women no natural family planning method will work due most possibly to the stresses and strains of family life. Until the Catholic Church starts funding research into providing a fool proof method of testing wether the mucus in her cervix will carry sperm into the ovaries via the Fallopian tube, perhaps a computer that uses a pin prick of blood or a sample of vaginal mucus for its analysis and it’s cheap like a telephone, women will never be free to space their family properly and or to love their existing children adequately. Ultimately most Catholics use NFP exactly like condoms, they have 2 or 3 kids have no intention of having anymore, but know that the method works perfectly for them and so they pretend that they are putting off children indefinitely. For the Catholic Church to say condoms are not equivalent of NFP they would have to bring in another rule for peoples sex lives. One that says if a catholic woman is using NFP then she must have one last child just before menopause begins.
 
There are women for whom the Creighton Napro or Billings methods work 100%.
Blessed are they. Thermometers are a waste of time as they measure the increase in temp after ovulation has already started.
Why is that a waste of time?
Blessed are those women who have such regular unchanging cycles that they can predict their ovulation.
Nice to know some people still use the rhythm method.
Even more blessed are those women who have some other indicator like pains or breast tenderness or vulva swelling that they recognise. However for many women no natural family planning method will work due most possibly to the stresses and strains of family life.
There are many other indicators one can look at.
Until the Catholic Church starts funding research into providing a fool proof method of testing wether the mucus in her cervix will carry sperm into the ovaries via the Fallopian tube,
You mean like looking at it?
perhaps a computer that uses a pin prick of blood or a sample of vaginal mucus for its analysis and it’s cheap like a telephone,
You mean like a clearblue easy fertility monitor or ovacue. Both of those are covered. You can get both and they’re less than a year’s cell phone bill.
women will never be free to space their family properly and or to love their existing children adequately.
Which women? All of them, or just your imaginary woman?

Why can’t these women love? Are they weird or something? Oh, that’s right, you can only love up to two kids at once, I forgot that rule.
Ultimately most Catholics use NFP exactly like condoms,
No they don’t.
they have 2 or 3 kids have no intention of having anymore,
Not usually.
but know that the method works perfectly for them and so they pretend that they are putting off children indefinitely.
Nothing is perfect in life. NFP isn’t something you use as much as it is something you practice.
For the Catholic Church to say condoms are not equivalent of NFP they would have to bring in another rule for peoples sex lives. One that says if a catholic woman is using NFP then she must have one last child just before menopause begins.
Can you spell this out for me a bit more? I’m just not seeing how that logically follows. Please explain to me exactly how it is that having sex with a condom on is the same thing as not having sex. Also, why is it that the Catholic Church needs to prove this? That’s just stupid. And why exactly would that lead to the position that a woman must have a baby just before menopause?
 
There are women for whom the Creighton Napro or Billings methods work 100%.
Blessed are they. Thermometers are a waste of time as they measure the increase in temp after ovulation has already started. Blessed are those women who have such regular unchanging cycles that they can predict their ovulation. Even more blessed are those women who have some other indicator like pains or breast tenderness or vulva swelling that they recognise. However for many women no natural family planning method will work due most possibly to the stresses and strains of family life. Until the Catholic Church starts funding research into providing a fool proof method of testing wether the mucus in her cervix will carry sperm into the ovaries via the Fallopian tube, perhaps a computer that uses a pin prick of blood or a sample of vaginal mucus for its analysis and it’s cheap like a telephone, women will never be free to space their family properly and or to love their existing children adequately. Ultimately most Catholics use NFP exactly like condoms, they have 2 or 3 kids have no intention of having anymore, but know that the method works perfectly for them and so they pretend that they are putting off children indefinitely. For the Catholic Church to say condoms are not equivalent of NFP they would have to bring in another rule for peoples sex lives. One that says if a catholic woman is using NFP then she must have one last child just before menopause begins.
How is determining ovulation via thermometer a “waste of time”? In strict NFP, determining ovulation is exactly what you want to do! The thermometer is $3-$5. Determine that ovulation occurred via prolonged temperature rise of 4 or, if you want to be really, really safe, 5 days, and voila! There is no way to get pregnant that cycle. An egg lives 24 hours post-ovulation, and double ovulation occurs within 24 hours of the first. Most women will then have a minimum of a week, and in most cases more like 10 days, before their period begins.

That people might be hypocritical about a belief doesn’t mean the belief isn’t true.

As others have pointed out, all methods of avoiding conception, excepting total abstinence, fail sometimes. This is why some couples in bad situations choose total abstinence. I personally know of one such couple who were in a situation wherein the wife would die if she got pregnant again, so they chose to abstain until she was in menopause.

No method (except, as I mentioned, abstinence) will work perfectly for all women. That doesn’t mean that methods which are wrong ought to be used in the place of ones which are right.

ETA passage from Humanae Vitae, the encyclical on Church teaching in this matter.

"16. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church concerning the moral laws governing marriage, that human intelligence has both the right and responsibility to control those forces of irrational nature which come within its ambit and to direct them toward ends beneficial to man. Others ask on the same point whether it is not reasonable in so many cases to use artificial birth control if by so doing the harmony and peace of a family are better served and more suitable conditions are provided for the education of children already born. To this question We must give a clear reply. The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.

**If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. **(20)

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love."

In the highly unlikely case you describe, the above bolded passages would apply to the question of whether the couple can have sex if they think that it’s very likely they shouldn’t have any more children.
 
How is determining ovulation via thermometer a “waste of time”? In strict NFP, determining ovulation is exactly what you want to do! The thermometer is $3-$5. Determine that ovulation occurred via prolonged temperature rise of 4 or, if you want to be really, really safe, 5 days, and voila! There is no way to get pregnant that cycle. An egg lives 24 hours post-ovulation, and double ovulation occurs within 24 hours of the first. Most women will then have a minimum of a week, and in most cases more like 10 days, before their period begins.
Exactly. For very strict NFP, you stick to the post-ovulatory phase, because it’s much more of a sure thing than the pre-ovulatory phase. You never know exactly when the egg is going to pop out, but once it has popped and several days have gone by (which you can verify with temperature readings), there’s a lot more certainty.
 
For the Catholic Church to say condoms are not equivalent of NFP they would have to bring in another rule for peoples sex lives. One that says if a catholic woman is using NFP then she must have one last child just before menopause begins.
Why?

Catholics are permitted to use NFP when they have serious and just reasons. Being pre-menopausal is a serious reason–at age 49 the risk of chromosomal abnormality is something like 1 in 8 at age 49, not mention the other serious health risks to both mother and child. Why should having a late in life baby be some sort of requirement?
 
*But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. *

Well in that very statement is the contradiction that places NFP equivalent to any other contraceptive method.
Why?

NFP for many women who know that for them it is 100% effective are using NFP as a means to “directly prevent conception”

In this case there are no well “grounded reasons for spacing births” but only the single reason of avoiding a birth.

If you fully well know in your heart that you do not want more children ever again, then at that point in time whatever contraceptive method you use even if it is NFP you are not fulfilling the procreative meaning of sex and never intend to and therefore according to the Church at the present moment, the sex is sinful as you are using NFP to definitely not have children. To do that indefinitely without agreeing that just before onset of menopause you will deliberately have sex during your fertile period, now knowing that you will fall pregnant as you have mastered the art of NFP Is making a mockery of the requirement to only space births. The Church is therefore making a lot of people lie to themselves. This is what I am raising as being not right.

Just because the Church puts a document out into the public domain and people blindly adhere to it without criticising its contradictions, so that it can be improved, doesn’t mean the document is perfect. Just because the Church wants to write things in such a way as to force a point of view onto people does not mean that they are right about it.

There is no difference whatsoever between the correct use of for instance condoms to avoid children indefinitely and the correct use of abstinence and NFP diagnostic signs to avoid children indefinitely. It is wrong to use condoms for SPACING children if NFP methods work for any particular woman but this is not the case for every women. So women should have the reasonable right to resort to condoms to space children if NFP does not work for them.
 
Why?

Catholics are permitted to use NFP when they have serious and just reasons. Being pre-menopausal is a serious reason–at age 49 the risk of chromosomal abnormality is something like 1 in 8 at age 49, not mention the other serious health risks to both mother and child. Why should having a late in life baby be some sort of requirement?
If there is a serious risk of performing a greater wrong by having a child when it would be dangerous then why should using a condom then in addition to NFP be regarded as less wrong when it would actually be more right?
 
If there is a serious risk of performing a greater wrong by having a child when it would be dangerous then why should using a condom then in addition to NFP be regarded as less wrong when it would actually be more right?
It’s generally not a question of right or wrong at all. (Although there’s a case to be made that a mother with a large family has no right to risk her life.) It’s more a question of being prudent and risk averse and using moral means to do so.

It is not wrong for a woman in her later 40s to attempt pregnancy. It isn’t wrong for her to avoid pregnancy through abstinence (i.e. NFP), either. There’s lots of leeway either way.

I suggest you read Simcha Fisher’s book “The Sinner’s Guide to NFP.”
 
Hi, I am a Marquette NFP user- I have successfully avoided pregnancy with this method for over a year, abstaining 9-12 days per cycle. The cost of the monitor and test strips has averaged out to about $10 per month, and I consider it money very well spent. This is actually the easiest NFP method in my opinion once you get started- no temping or mucus observations; all you have to do is test your urine on some mornings, chart online, and technology does the rest. It isn’t hard once you get the hang of it but it sounds like you’re a bit confused now, as you don’t even mention the Clearblue Monitor which is the basis of this method. What you need to do is go to the Marquette NFP website, read the “Quick Instructions for Using the Fertility Monitor Method,” register for their forums, and ask your questions to the instructors there. It is actually the creators of the Marquette method who answer your questions- it is a great resource and it’s free. You do all your charting online and it will calculate the beginning and end of the fertile phase for you.

The monitor-only protocol (which includes an algorithm for the start of the fertile phase) is actually more effective and much easier than monitor+mucus. I can share the study that shows that if you’re interested.
 
The monitor-only protocol (which includes an algorithm for the start of the fertile phase) is actually more effective and much easier than monitor+mucus. I can share the study that shows that if you’re interested.
It may be easier, but I certainly doubt that the monitor-only protocol is “more effective”, so I am very interested in any study that claims that subtracting a method of observation is actually better.

There were a few instances (though admittedly not many) when the monitor has not agreed with my observations, and my own observations prompted me to take a step back and otherwise I very well might have ended up pregnant that cycle. Though it is an option to use only the monitor, I personally would never recommend it unless you don’t really care all that much if you wind up pregnant.
 
It may be easier, but I certainly doubt that the monitor-only protocol is “more effective”, so I am very interested in any study that claims that subtracting a method of observation is actually better.

There were a few instances (though admittedly not many) when the monitor has not agreed with my observations, and my own observations prompted me to take a step back and otherwise I very well might have ended up pregnant that cycle. Though it is an option to use only the monitor, I personally would never recommend it unless you don’t really care all that much if you wind up pregnant.
That makes sense. If one goes against the monitor because of observations, that does seem unwise, but one is more conservative than the monitor because of observations, that can’t possibly be less effective than just the monitor.
 
It may be easier, but I certainly doubt that the monitor-only protocol is “more effective”, so I am very interested in any study that claims that subtracting a method of observation is actually better.
There were a few instances (though admittedly not many) when the monitor has not agreed with my observations, and my own observations prompted me to take a step back and otherwise I very well might have ended up pregnant that cycle. Though it is an option to use only the monitor, I personally would never recommend it unless you don’t really care all that much if you wind up pregnant.
It sounds counter-intuitive, but this is what the studies have found. I’ve asked the scientists who created this method about this, and they think that this may be in part because people take more “risks” when they include CM observations because they get frustrated by ambiguous signs. And a lot of people find observing CM to be difficult because it is subjective, and the stress of having to interpret and second-guess themselves undermines their confidence in NFP. Monitor-only takes away the burden on the woman to be constantly thinking about her fertility. When you say that monitor-only would have gotten you pregnant, were you also considering the algorithm for the start of the fertile phase? That is what the method calls for.

A peer-reviewed scientific study of the monitor-only method showed it to have perfect use effectiveness of 100%- i.e. there were no unintended pregnancies among those with correct use. I know it sounds too good to be true, but it isn’t. I use monitor-only Marquette despite having serious reason to postpone pregnancy. I see no reason to make NFP more difficult and stressful for me when monitor-only is close to 100% effective anyway.

If you want to read the study for yourself check out: Randomized comparison of two Internet-supported fertility awareness based methods of family planning by Fehring, Schneider et al in the Journal of Contraception.
 
It sounds counter-intuitive, but this is what the studies have found. I’ve asked the scientists who created this method about this, and they think that this may be in part because people take more “risks” when they include CM observations because they get frustrated by ambiguous signs. And a lot of people find observing CM to be difficult because it is subjective, and the stress of having to interpret and second-guess themselves undermines their confidence in NFP. Monitor-only takes away the burden on the woman to be constantly thinking about her fertility. When you say that monitor-only would have gotten you pregnant, were you also considering the algorithm for the start of the fertile phase? That is what the method calls for.

A peer-reviewed scientific study of the monitor-only method showed it to have perfect use effectiveness of 100%- i.e. there were no unintended pregnancies among those with correct use. I know it sounds too good to be true, but it isn’t. I use monitor-only Marquette despite having serious reason to postpone pregnancy. I see no reason to make NFP more difficult and stressful for me when monitor-only is close to 100% effective anyway.

If you want to read the study for yourself check out: Randomized comparison of two Internet-supported fertility awareness based methods of family planning by Fehring, Schneider et al in the Journal of Contraception.
Apparently, it is too good to be true!

Thanks for providing the study. However, you are mistaken. This study compared monitor use with mucus observations ONLY, not monitor + mucus observations and monitor only. Those who were observing cervical mucus only did not use a monitor. If you can show me a study comparing the standard protocol for Marquette (use of monitor plus cervical mucus observations) with monitor only use, I will be less skeptical. Unfortunately, this particular study (found here: epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1177&context=nursing_fac) does not conclude anything about exclusive use of the monitor being more effective than including both methods of observation.

I love the Marquette method, but it is only common sense that being more cautious by adding an observation method is the more conservative way to go. I’m sure monitor-only method is just fine for some people, it’s just not something I’d rely on exclusively. (And yes, in my case I would have potentially become pregnant on a “safe” day according to the monitor).

Something else important for Marquette users to keep in mind is that after 20 days of testing the monitor will automatically read “low” after that last strip, regardless of whether you ovulated or not. Never a problem if you have text book cycles, but if you occasionally have an off-cycle, you need to pay careful attention and re-boot the monitor, abstaining until you get an accurate reading. If you’re not checking cervical mucus and are unaware of this issue, it can result in pregnancy.
 
Apparently, it is too good to be true!
Thanks for providing the study. However, you are mistaken. This study compared monitor use with mucus observations ONLY, not monitor + mucus observations and monitor only. Those who were observing cervical mucus only did not use a monitor. If you can show me a study comparing the standard protocol for Marquette (use of monitor plus cervical mucus observations) with monitor only use, I will be less skeptical. Unfortunately, this particular study (found here: epublications.marquette.edu/c…xt=nursing_fac) does not conclude anything about exclusive use of the monitor being more effective than including both methods of observation.
I love the Marquette method, but it is only common sense that being more cautious by adding an observation method is the more conservative way to go. I’m sure monitor-only method is just fine for some people, it’s just not something I’d rely on exclusively. (And yes, in my case I would have potentially become pregnant on a “safe” day according to the monitor).
You are correct that that study I mentioned is comparing monitor-only to mucus-only. They haven’t done a study directly comparing monitor-only to monitor+mucus to my knowledge. However, their previous study of monitor+mucus showed typical use failure rate of 12 per 100, vs. only 7 per 100 for the study I linked of monitor-only. So the point still stands that monitor-only is at least as effective, if not more effective, than monitor+mucus in real life.

Are you a member of the Marquette NFP online portal? I am just relaying the information that is available there from the scientists who created this method. I trust their advice.

It’s great if you feel more comfortable keeping mucus observations, but it’s not fair to scare new NFP users and tell them that something with a method failure rate of 0 shouldn’t be used unless they’re ok with getting pregnant.
 
Something else important for Marquette users to keep in mind is that after 20 days of testing the monitor will automatically read “low” after that last strip, regardless of whether you ovulated or not. Never a problem if you have text book cycles, but if you occasionally have an off-cycle, you need to pay careful attention and re-boot the monitor, abstaining until you get an accurate reading. If you’re not checking cervical mucus and are unaware of this issue, it can result in pregnancy.
That’s a heck of a bug.
 
You are correct that that study I mentioned is comparing monitor-only to mucus-only. They haven’t done a study directly comparing monitor-only to monitor+mucus to my knowledge. However, their previous study of monitor+mucus showed typical use failure rate of 12 per 100, vs. only 7 per 100 for the study I linked of monitor-only. So the point still stands that monitor-only is at least as effective, if not more effective, than monitor+mucus in real life.

Are you a member of the Marquette NFP online portal? I am just relaying the information that is available there from the scientists who created this method. I trust their advice.

It’s great if you feel more comfortable keeping mucus observations, but it’s not fair to scare new NFP users and tell them that something with a method failure rate of 0 shouldn’t be used unless they’re ok with getting pregnant.
You cannot cross-compare research studies across different groups and different, uncontrolled circumstances, to make a valid research argument. So the point doesn’t “still stand”, it’s invalid. In addition, any theory needs to be repeatable and proven over and over again to become a valid consideration in the research world. The fact is that there is no study that leads to the conclusion you are presenting here. It would be one thing to say that the monitor-only protocol is effective for you, and I am sure it is for many others. But to state that it is actually more effective than the standard protocol is a fallacy.

Yes, I am a member of the online portal and also used the method for several years to both achieve and avoid.

I am not trying to scare anyone at all. I am trying to help the OP and anyone else who might be interested to understand that relying solely on the monitor does not work all the time, and that if they would like to be more conservative in their approach, it is wise to add in the mucus observations as well. As a statistician and analyst by trade, one study where 197 people avoided pregnancy using the monitor only, when not even compared to a group that added in the monitor, is simply not enough to convince me (nor should it really be to anyone else) that forgetting mucus observations is “better”.
 
That’s a heck of a bug.
Well, yeah, except that it’s not really a “bug” necessarily, because the monitor was designed to be used by people trying to achieve a pregnancy, not the other way around. It’s a tool that can be used to help avoid, but that’s not its original purpose.

The Marquette website is pretty clear about this, too, and also that if you don’t generally have cycles less than 42 days, the method may not be for you. Mine are generally fine, but anyone can get a few wacky cycles, which is I guess why I care that people are aware of this and adamant that adding in mucus observations is more reliable overall.

So, I think as long as a user is aware of this (and the way to work around it), it really doesn’t have to be a problem. Getting a long string of high days, no peak, and then dropping to low, should make a user suspicious as it is. If she’s paying attention to cervical mucus, she may not be surprised, but if she isn’t she might assume that since the monitor says “low”, that it’s safe when it’s not.
 
I am also an analyst and I have also taken part in working on published medical research projects. The researchers who created the method have directly compared those studies in talking to people on the forum. I just don’t understand why you are giving advice contrary to the NFP professionals on the official Marquette forum. Are you saying you know better than the people who created the method, because they actually discourage checking mucus for most users now, claiming that it is a fuzzy indicator of fertility. It sounds like you haven’t been on the forum in awhile.

I am not trying to be difficult but the monitor-only method has been a huge benefit to a lot of women I know and it upsets me to see it unfairly criticized.
 
I am also an analyst and I have also taken part in working on published medical research projects. The researchers who created the method have directly compared those studies in talking to people on the forum. I just don’t understand why you are giving advice contrary to the NFP professionals on the official Marquette forum. Are you saying you know better than the people who created the method, because they actually discourage checking mucus for most users now, claiming that it is a fuzzy indicator of fertility. It sounds like you haven’t been on the forum in awhile.

I am not trying to be difficult but the monitor-only method has been a huge benefit to a lot of women I know and it upsets me to see it unfairly criticized.
  1. I was not aware that cervical mucus observations are being “discouraged”, and I certainly hope that if researchers have discovered something contrary to what they are promoting for methods, that they will publicly change the protocols available on the website so as not to confuse people. It is true that I have not been on the forum for awhile, so if this is something coming up then it does concern me if the rules are changing and people do not know about them. “Discouraging mucus observations for most users” is a very big claim, so I for one would like to see a basis for this before I just stopped because I heard it somewhere.
  2. Again, I do not doubt that that monitor only method is very useful. However, it is not the most effective method for myself and I am sure for many others. People should be informed enough to make their own decisions about what is right for them. Someone may read this thread and decide that they’d rather chuck the mucus observations and someone else might like the extra security it provides them. But your claim was that the monitor-only method is better and more effective, and the only “evidence” you have provided is that there are forum discussions where the creators of the method are saying so. Not enough proof for me; maybe for someone else. I’d be more likely to buy it if there was actually any indication of such a thing openly presented on their website, but for now I guess people will just need to come to their own conclusions.
 
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