NFP vs. Vasectomy

[Mongol]

I was recently reading Humanae Vitae in an effort to come to terms with the Church’s teaching on artificial sterilization. I was talking about it with my parents and they told me this story:

be my grandfather, circa 1965
faithful Catholic, doing his best with NFP
despite this, end up with 6 kids
doctor says grandma’s life is seriously in danger if she has another child
NFP clearly isn’t working
grandpa gets vasectomy

Were his actions justified? If not, what should he have done?

 

[Mongol]

It is hard to say what frame of mind your grandfather was in 50 years ago.

Did he speak with a priest? Has he gone to confession? I don’t think the term “NFP” was even used at that time. I believe the assumption in many cases was that a woman had a 28-day cycle of fertility but that was not always the case therefore many couples were not served well by they system? “Life seriously in danger” what did the doctor say exactly?

There are many variables here, some of which only God knows what was in the heart. A person could be seeking a vasectomy and looking for an excuse to have one. Then there could be another person who thinks having a vasectomy is a mortal sin, yet a misinformed priest tells them it is okay to get one.

My question for you is why is it important for you to know what others think of your grandfather’s actions of 50 years ago? Is it just curiosity or are you struggling with the Catholic church teaching yourself? God bless.

That’s a good point that “NFP” didn’t exist as we know it, and that we don’t know the particulars. I think that the point is that he felt that he had to defy Church teaching out of medical necessity. I’m wondering what a priest would have said in this situation. Unfortunately my grandfather passed away 15 years ago, so I can’t ask him myself.

I ask both out of curiosity (what would a priest have said, anyway?) and because I myself am struggling with this teaching. I’m trying to discern my own vocation, be it marriage or lay brotherhood, but I do know that I never want to have children. My resolve has only gotten stronger as I’ve gotten older, and if I do get married I would insist not only on a vasectomy for myself, but a tubal ligation for my wife. The more I read about NFP, the less I trust it. The teaching of the Church is a major struggle for me so I’m trying to learn as much about the teaching as I can, and cover all the hypotheticals.

 

[1ke]

Were his actions justified?

No.

There is never any justification for sinful actions. Sterilization is objectively evil.

If not, what should he have done?

Abstain.

Of course, natural family planning in the 1960s would likely have been the rhythm method, which is obsolete now with the advent of modern methods.

 

[1ke]

I think that the point is that he felt that he had to defy Church teaching out of medical necessity.

There wasn’t any “medical necessity” to undergo a vasectomy. There was a medical necessity for your grandmother to postpone additional pregnancies for a time or indefinitely. That could have been achieved without committing a gravely evil act.

I do know that I never want to have children

Then it is highly likely you are not called to marriage. A permanent intention against children is an impediment to contracting a valid marriage. It is not possible to enter marriage with such an intention.

if I do get married I would insist not only on a vasectomy for myself, but a tubal ligation for my wife

You cannot contract a valid marriage under such an ultimatum.

 

[fencersmother]

I suggest you revisit ALL your catechism.

Just because Grandpa did it doesn’t mean it was right, and certainly, if you had really read Humanae Vitae, you would know that the acts which you suggest are gravely sinful, and a definite impediment to marriage.

 

[Allegra]

I’m trying to discern my own vocation, be it marriage or lay brotherhood, but I do know that I never want to have children. My resolve has only gotten stronger as I’ve gotten older, and if I do get married I would insist not only on a vasectomy for myself, but a tubal ligation for my wife. The more I read about NFP, the less I trust it. The teaching of the Church is a major struggle for me so I’m trying to learn as much about the teaching as I can, and cover all the hypotheticals.

If that’s the case, then you already know the answer. Marriage is a vocation toward family. If you attempt to marry with that mindset, it would not be a valid marriage. Out of curiosity, why do you not want children?

 

[Birdpreacher]

Grandpa was right. Very clever move.

At the end of the day he was responsible and acted in a way to secure his ability to provide for his family.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I was recently reading Humanae Vitae in an effort to come to terms with the Church’s teaching on artificial sterilization. I was talking about it with my parents and they told me this story:

be my grandfather, circa 1965
faithful Catholic, doing his best with NFP
despite this, end up with 6 kids
doctor says grandma’s life is seriously in danger if she has another child
NFP clearly isn’t working
grandpa gets vasectomy

1. Ok
2. Not doing “his best” with NFP. NFP as we know it did not exist in 1965. Certain rhythm methods were developed in the 30s so perhaps he was using some of those. Billions of people in the history of the world have been able to either accept their marital calling or abstain at the right times so getting mutilated is not a great answer. I would alos question your term of “faithful” Catholic. That would not apply in a marriage. “I was always faithful to my mom except when I had prostitutes does not work either.”
3. Despite this!? ok, so now you know that your grandpa wishes he never had some of his children. Sad.
4. Doctors say this a lot especially now days, but back then, probably not as much. I ask you, what did people do before mutilating their bodies? Now, this is interesting because medical technology in the 60s is not what it is today. If indeed your grandmother’s life was in danger, it was pretty risky of your grandpa to “trust” the vasectomy. I have met quite a few “vasectomy babies” Periodic abstinence would have respected your grandma’s life more.
5. Isn’t or wasn’t? Most likely it was not the periodic abstinence that failed but rather willpower to abstain.
6. grandpa commits grave matter.

You should know that mortal sin is never “justified” ever. Your grandpa was a sinner, just like you and me. Hopefully he had recourse to the faith he turned his back on in a moment of weakness. Hopefully his pride was not an obstacle of repentance.

 

[Mongol]

No.

There is never any justification for sinful actions. Sterilization is objectively evil.

Abstain.

There wasn’t any “medical necessity” to undergo a vasectomy. There was a medical necessity for your grandmother to postpone additional pregnancies for a time or indefinitely. That could have been achieved without committing a gravely evil act.

I agree with the sentiment, but you gotta realize that’s much easier said than done, and may in fact destroy an otherwise healthy marriage. I’m not saying that’s an excuse, but in light of this it may not be so black and white? I’m not trying to be argumentative, I’m just trying to understand the Church’s teaching.

Then it is highly likely you are not called to marriage.

You know that’s interesting. As a kid I always wanted to be a priest but my parents didn’t want me to go to a high school seminary. I assumed that because of this my vocation lay elsewhere. After a prodigiously sinful young adulthood I realize I probably do not have what it takes to be a priest, but I would make a great lay brother.

But I love (LOVE) women and want to get married.

A permanent intention against children is an impediment to contracting a valid marriage. It is not possible to enter marriage with such an intention.

You cannot contract a valid marriage under such an ultimatum.

Well, I’m not saying that if it happened despite our efforts, we would refuse this child. Of course we would accept the will of God.

 

[Mongol]

If that’s the case, then you already know the answer. Marriage is a vocation toward family. If you attempt to marry with that mindset, it would not be a valid marriage. Out of curiosity, why do you not want children?

Well, a few reasons:

1. I can’t stand kids. Why would I get something that I can’t stand?
2. Kids are generally not pleasant people to be around.
3. I remember what it was like to be a kid, it was awful. I was dumb and selfish and arrogant. I don’t want to put anyone else through that.
4. They get sick a lot, and I can’t handle that.
5. They’re expensive.
6. I can have a dog or cat instead. In fact I do, I have a dog and she’s quite enough for me.
7. Waking up in the middle of the night to calm a screaming, pooping, vomiting baby doesn’t appeal to me. I can serve God in other ways–for example, through devotion to my wife.

Frankly I don’t see the benefit. I know it comes off as selfish or whatever but I just can’t do it.

 

[Mongol]

Grandpa was right. Very clever move.

At the end of the day he was responsible and acted in a way to secure his ability to provide for his family.

That’s my initial thought, but from a Catholic perspective it just doesn’t work.

 

[Birdpreacher]

That’s my initial thought, but from a Catholic perspective it just doesn’t work.

Remember what the Catholic Perspective is made up of: Old men, who are single, who don’t have kids, and don’t have sex.

 

[Mongol]

1. Ok
2. Not doing “his best” with NFP. NFP as we know it did not exist in 1965. Certain rhythm methods were developed in the 30s so perhaps he was using some of those. Billions of people in the history of the world have been able to either accept their marital calling or abstain at the right times so getting mutilated is not a great answer. I would alos question your term of “faithful” Catholic. That would not apply in a marriage. “I was always faithful to my mom except when I had prostitutes does not work either.”

I’m not sure I really understand what you mean. He was certainly the most faithful Catholic layman I’ve ever known, which is why it came as such a surprise to me when I heard he got a vasectomy. This in mind, I’ve been thinking it may be acceptable.

1. Despite this!? ok, so now you know that your grandpa wishes he never had some of his children. Sad.

Well, if a kid happens by accident, I would say the important thing is loving the kid despite that, which he did, and I admire him for it.

1. Doctors say this a lot especially now days, but back then, probably not as much. I ask you, what did people do before mutilating their bodies? Now, this is interesting because medical technology in the 60s is not what it is today. If indeed your grandmother’s life was in danger, it was pretty risky of your grandpa to “trust” the vasectomy. I have met quite a few “vasectomy babies” Periodic abstinence would have respected your grandma’s life more.

Excellent point. I’m a linguist, not a doctor, but what you said here seems to make sense. Is periodic abstinence more effective than a vasectomy? Why not both to be extra safe?

1. Isn’t or wasn’t? Most likely it was not the periodic abstinence that failed but rather willpower to abstain.

My point exactly. The reality is that people do fail especially in sexual matters. Seems to me like the best course of action would have been to support periodic abstinence with a vasectomy.

1. grandpa commits grave matter.

You should know that mortal sin is never “justified” ever. Your grandpa was a sinner, just like you and me. Hopefully he had recourse to the faith he turned his back on in a moment of weakness. Hopefully his pride was not an obstacle of repentance.

That’s my trouble. It sure seems justified in this case–or rather, not sinful at all. I’m really trying to see the other side but I can’t get past the “common sense” of his decision.

 

[Vico]

I was recently reading Humanae Vitae in an effort to come to terms with the Church’s teaching on artificial sterilization. I was talking about it with my parents and they told me this story:

be my grandfather, circa 1965
faithful Catholic, doing his best with NFP
despite this, end up with 6 kids
doctor says grandma’s life is seriously in danger if she has another child
NFP clearly isn’t working
grandpa gets vasectomy

At that time natural family planning that was used was called Knaus–Ogino or rhythm method. Pope Pius XII had given his instruction on the issue of the exclusive use of naturally sterile periods, and of the evil of sterilization in 1951 (Allocation to Midwives), and another pope, Pope Pius XI had addressed such issues before. It is hard to say if this was well known in the place of your grandfather at that time.

 

[Lookingforjoy]

1. Ok
2. Not doing “his best” with NFP. NFP as we know it did not exist in 1965. Certain rhythm methods were developed in the 30s so perhaps he was using some of those. Billions of people in the history of the world have been able to either accept their marital calling or abstain at the right times so getting mutilated is not a great answer. I would alos question your term of “faithful” Catholic. That would not apply in a marriage. “I was always faithful to my mom except when I had prostitutes does not work either.”

If I used the rhythm method, which was the knowledge in the 1930s (according to Wikipedia the sympto-thermal method didn’t come about until the mid-30s) I’d be perpetually pregnant. The rhythm method doesn’t work for everyone. It definitely doesn’t work with my cycle. Perhaps Grandma was the same way. I’m that case it would be total abstinence, not periodic abstinence.

1. Despite this!? ok, so now you know that your grandpa wishes he never had some of his children. Sad.

Oh come on now. I “wound up” with four pregnancies when I only planned on two. Does it mean that I love my daughter or the baby I lost any less, or wish they hadn’t been born? Of course not. I’m sure they felt the same way.

1. Doctors say this a lot especially now days, but back then, probably not as much. I ask you, what did people do before mutilating their bodies? Now, this is interesting because medical technology in the 60s is not what it is today. If indeed your grandmother’s life was in danger, it was pretty risky of your grandpa to “trust” the vasectomy. I have met quite a few “vasectomy babies” Periodic abstinence would have respected your grandma’s life more.

**Maternal death rates were still high in the 1930s. They didn’t start to really drop until the 1940s. I’m not sure why you don’t believe the grandmother’s life could have been at risk here. **

I think he was trying to do the right thing, but chose the wrong option.

 

[Allegra]

Well, a few reasons:

1. I can’t stand kids. Why would I get something that I can’t stand?
2. Kids are generally not pleasant people to be around.
3. I remember what it was like to be a kid, it was awful. I was dumb and selfish and arrogant. I don’t want to put anyone else through that.
4. They get sick a lot, and I can’t handle that.
5. They’re expensive.
6. I can have a dog or cat instead. In fact I do, I have a dog and she’s quite enough for me.
7. Waking up in the middle of the night to calm a screaming, pooping, vomiting baby doesn’t appeal to me. I can serve God in other ways–for example, through devotion to my wife.

Frankly I don’t see the benefit. I know it comes off as selfish or whatever but I just can’t do it.

Okay. Marriage is not your vocation. Loving people when they are unpleasant, dumb, arrogant, selfish, sick, expensive, crying, pooping, and vomiting is what family and marriage are about. You should not get married, because wives also have times when they are unpleasant, arrogant, sick, expensive, crying, and vomiting, and if you can’t get past yourself to love an innocent baby during those times, then you aren’t going to be able to handle the imperfections in a grown woman. What if she gets cancer? What if she gets alsheimers? What if she suffers traumatic stress from some sort of life-altering incident that occurs? Would you be there for her?

 

[Mongol]

Remember what the Catholic Perspective is made up of: Old men, who are single, who don’t have kids, and don’t have sex.

Good point. But…

implying married men can’t be priests
implying no unmarried priest has ever broken his vow of celibacy

Pic related, it’s you
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Mongol]

Okay. Marriage is not your vocation. Loving people when they are unpleasant, dumb, arrogant, selfish, sick, expensive, crying, pooping, and vomiting is what family and marriage are about. You should not get married, because wives also have times when they are unpleasant, arrogant, sick, expensive, crying, and vomiting, and if you can’t get past yourself to love an innocent baby during those times, then you aren’t going to be able to handle the imperfections in a grown woman. What if she gets cancer? What if she gets alsheimers? What if she suffers traumatic stress from some sort of life-altering incident that occurs? Would you be there for her?

When you put it that way, maybe marriage isn’t for me…but I could easily love a grown woman in these circumstances. I mean, I’ve had girlfriends before. I realize a wife is a much greater commitment, but at least we’d have things in common and could have interesting conversations. Of course I’d be there for her if something happened. I would love to become a lay brother, but my one impediment is how much I love women.

But kids? No way.

 

[Lou2U]

That’s a good point that “NFP” didn’t exist as we know it, and that we don’t know the particulars. I think that the point is that he felt that he had to defy Church teaching out of medical necessity. I’m wondering what a priest would have said in this situation. Unfortunately my grandfather passed away 15 years ago, so I can’t ask him myself.

I ask both out of curiosity (what would a priest have said, anyway?) and because I myself am struggling with this teaching. I’m trying to discern my own vocation, be it marriage or lay brotherhood, but I do know that I never want to have children. My resolve has only gotten stronger as I’ve gotten older, and **if I do get married I would insist not only on a vasectomy for myself, but a tubal ligation for my wife. ** The more I read about NFP, the less I trust it. The teaching of the Church is a major struggle for me so I’m trying to learn as much about the teaching as I can, and cover all the hypotheticals.

Good luck finding a wife who would let you force her into becoming sterile.

Lou

 

[Deltadeliquent]

Do not get married.
Your attitude tells me that not only are you not open to kids, but that you don’t have what it takes to be fully present to a woman. That is necessary for a marrige. You will ruin her life, and close the door on holy orders for yourself.

If I had a girlfriend who was dating you, and I knew how you regard children, I would stick her on an airplane to a very faraway place with no money to get back, just to keep her away from you.

I’m sure you are a good man, I’m not judging you. But the strength of your arguments against children shows me that marriage is NOT your vocation. There is another wonderful,life waiting for you to take up out there. One where you belong and will be successful with.

If you hate kids, there is no way you can love women, maybe you just love sex. There is a huge difference. It’s a category error on your part.

Give your possible “wife” a break and don’t even go there. Before you even meet her, set her free to find her true husband and to have a family. Find out where you belong, and pursue that life with all your heart.

I know whereof I speak. Unknowingly, I married a man much like you. He took the best, most productive years of my life from me. When we finally did have children, he was a terrible father, and I am still trying to heal those wounds in my son.

Just don’t do it. The world needs you in some other capacity.