NFPers and Providentialists

  • Thread starter Thread starter NFP1Kate
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
lifeisbeautiful - here is another example:

A person is killed by a drunk driver who runs a stoplight and smashes into his/her car. In attempts to comfort, people talk of it “beings God’s will” or “I’m sure God had a reason”.

No, God did not will this accident to happen, and it isn’t part of his “plan”. It was a person exercising their free will who got into a car after drinking and killed someone who happened to be in the intersection at the wrong time. Why would God will one person’s life to ruined and another killed?

The same with children. If you believe that God actually makes a willful decision for each conception (outside of the biology) , then you believe that God wants some couples to be childless and that he wanted octomom to have a bazillion kids and for children with severe birth defects to be born.

We are not chess pieces that God moves around the board - we are flesh and blood creations that exercise free will and have to live with the consequences.
 
PaulinVA said:
lifeisbeautiful - here is another example:

A person is killed by a drunk driver who runs a stoplight and smashes into his/her car. In attempts to comfort, people talk of it “beings God’s will” or “I’m sure God had a reason”.

No, God did not will this accident to happen, and it isn’t part of his “plan”. It was a person exercising their free will who got into a car after drinking and killed someone who happened to be in the intersection at the wrong time. Why would God will one person’s life to ruined and another killed?

The same with children. If you believe that God actually makes a willful decision for each conception (outside of the biology) , then you believe that God wants some couples to be childless and that he wanted octomom to have a bazillion kids and for children with severe birth defects to be born.

We are not chess pieces that God moves around the board - we are flesh and blood creations that exercise free will and have to live with the consequences.
Click to expand...
Paul… I have been thinking about this issue for a while, and you have enunciated my feelings pretty well, right down to the “chess pieces” analogy.

Clearly, God wants what is best for each of us; however, due to original sin and its fallout, evil exists, there is illness and death, some people who would be wonderful parents never conceive, and some truly awful parents have multiple innocent children who suffer the consequences of their parents’ sin/bad choices. This, and our free will which permits us to reject God’s graces, is the reason for miscarriages, birth defects, children born out of wedlock, etc.

God certainly can - and often does - intervene and interact with His creation in the form of answered (yes or no) prayer. He has, however, chosen to allow us to act as co-creators of human life, through His wondrous methods. It is incumbent upon us to make prayerful decisions about the number and spacing of children we welcome to our families, whether we “leave it all up to God” or use NFP.
 
PaulinVA said:
lifeisbeautiful - here is another example:

A person is killed by a drunk driver who runs a stoplight and smashes into his/her car. In attempts to comfort, people talk of it “beings God’s will” or “I’m sure God had a reason”.

No, God did not will this accident to happen, and it isn’t part of his “plan”. It was a person exercising their free will who got into a car after drinking and killed someone who happened to be in the intersection at the wrong time. Why would God will one person’s life to ruined and another killed?

The same with children. If you believe that God actually makes a willful decision for each conception (outside of the biology) , then you believe that God wants some couples to be childless and that he wanted octomom to have a bazillion kids and for children with severe birth defects to be born.

We are not chess pieces that God moves around the board - we are flesh and blood creations that exercise free will and have to live with the consequences.
Click to expand...
You are correct, God would not will for anyone to sin, but this does not mean that He does not allow good things to come out of bad choices, that He did not have plans for every single one of those unique lives that were created through octomom and her doctor’s sinful designs, it doesn’t mean there is no place in His bigger plans for some children with severe birth defects, and for other people to have to suffer greatly on this Earth.

Here are a couple of relevant quotes from the Catechism:
313 "We know that in everything God works for good for those who love him."180 The constant witness of the saints confirms this truth:
St. Catherine of Siena said to “those who are scandalized and rebel against what happens to them”: "Everything comes from love, all is ordained for the salvation of man, God does nothing without this goal in mind."181 St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: "Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best."182
Dame Julian of Norwich: "Here I was taught by the grace of God that I should steadfastly keep me in the faith. . . and that at the same time I should take my stand on and earnestly believe in what our Lord shewed in this time - that ‘all manner [of] thing shall be well.’"183

318 **No creature has the infinite power necessary to “create” in the proper sense of the word, that is, to produce and give being to that which had in no way possessed it (to call into existence “out of nothing”) (cf DS 3624). **

321 Divine providence consists of the dispositions by which God guides all his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end. 322 Christ invites us to filial trust in the providence of our heavenly Father (cf. *Mt *6:26-34), and St. Peter the apostle repeats: “Cast all your anxieties on him, for he cares about you” (I *Pt *5:7; cf. Ps 55:23).
323 **Divine providence works also through the actions of creatures. To human beings God grants the ability to cooperate freely with his plans. **
324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
 
I’m a prov and my wife is a NFPer. Needless to say that it can cause some friction but with patience we work though it until we BOTH decide its time. We are pregnant with our fourth and we actively tried to conceive. I think the leap for me to be a providentialist is easier because I am not the one who has to get pregnant, go into labor and breastfeed, I understand this and am sympathetic and patient with my wife.
 
lifeisbeautiful said:
You are correct, God would not will for anyone to sin, but this does not mean that He does not allow good things to come out of bad choices, that He did not have plans for every single one of those unique lives that were created through octomom and her doctor’s sinful designs, it doesn’t mean there is no place in His bigger plans for some children with severe birth defects, and for other people to have to suffer greatly on this Earth.

Here are a couple of relevant quotes from the Catechism:
313 "We know that in everything God works for good for those who love him."180 The constant witness of the saints confirms this truth:
St. Catherine of Siena said to “those who are scandalized and rebel against what happens to them”: "Everything comes from love, all is ordained for the salvation of man, God does nothing without this goal in mind."181 St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: "Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best."182
Dame Julian of Norwich: "Here I was taught by the grace of God that I should steadfastly keep me in the faith. . . and that at the same time I should take my stand on and earnestly believe in what our Lord shewed in this time - that ‘all manner [of] thing shall be well.’"183

318 **No creature has the infinite power necessary to “create” in the proper sense of the word, that is, to produce and give being to that which had in no way possessed it (to call into existence “out of nothing”) (cf DS 3624). **

321 Divine providence consists of the dispositions by which God guides all his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end. 322 Christ invites us to filial trust in the providence of our heavenly Father (cf. *Mt *6:26-34), and St. Peter the apostle repeats: “Cast all your anxieties on him, for he cares about you” (I *Pt *5:7; cf. Ps 55:23).
323 **Divine providence works also through the actions of creatures. To human beings God grants the ability to cooperate freely with his plans. **
324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
Click to expand...
👍

We’re not talking about pregnancy and family size any longer. We’re talking about faith in God’s Divine Providence. There’s an outstanding classic Catholic book called “Self Abandonment to Divine Providence” by Fr. Jean-Pierre de Caussade. catholictreasury.info/books/abandon/index.php
 
“Sorry honey my temperature not raised enough we will have to wait”… never mind you have been waiting for two weeks and you about to burst, also never mind that the possibility of her getting pregnant is slim to none at this time of the month, and her temp is one tenth of degree off from being in the “safe” zone. .A lousy 1/10 of a degree separates me from sins of impurity and holiness. That is the reality of Natural Family Planning.

The truth is it is not natural and you are not planning a family. Too many use NFP as a birth control method against the intent of the church. Grave situations call for grave methods. How many of us can truly say that getting pregnant is a grave or serious matter ? Is it a matter of life and death ? The fact is making your husband wait for more than a week or so is a grave situation for them. It is a matter of grave and mortal sins of impurity. Is that tenth of degree is really all that important ?

Instead why not obey your husband’s when you know he needs relations regardless of what the “chart” says . . . that way, you are obeying God. For a man, wait more than 7 days or so is very serious. … and they wonder why their husbands leave and behave “that way”… The problem is husbands don’t say anything because their wives will think they are weak. And so they try to be strong but typically will fail. And fall into sin.

Look to end result – one way you wind up with child and yes you may have to suffer for a short while the other way you commit a sin and perhaps suffer for eternity.
So wives please understand there are times when a man needs you for a very good reason if you use NFP please don’t take the most conservative approach unless there really is a very serious grave reason to do so. 🙂
 
dremcnally said:
“Sorry honey my temperature not raised enough we will have to wait”… never mind you have been waiting for two weeks and you about to burst, also never mind that the possibility of her getting pregnant is slim to none at this time of the month, and her temp is one tenth of degree off from being in the “safe” zone. .A lousy 1/10 of a degree separates me from sins of impurity and holiness. That is the reality of Natural Family Planning.

The truth is it is not natural and you are not planning a family. Too many use NFP as a birth control method against the intent of the church. Grave situations call for grave methods. How many of us can truly say that getting pregnant is a grave or serious matter ? Is it a matter of life and death ? The fact is making your husband wait for more than a week or so is a grave situation for them. It is a matter of grave and mortal sins of impurity. Is that tenth of degree is really all that important ?

Instead why not obey your husband’s when you know he needs relations regardless of what the “chart” says . . . that way, you are obeying God. For a man, wait more than 7 days or so is very serious. … and they wonder why their husbands leave and behave “that way”… The problem is husbands don’t say anything because their wives will think they are weak. And so they try to be strong but typically will fail. And fall into sin.

Look to end result – one way you wind up with child and yes you may have to suffer for a short while the other way you commit a sin and perhaps suffer for eternity.
So wives please understand there are times when a man needs you for a very good reason if you use NFP please don’t take the most conservative approach unless there really is a very serious grave reason to do so. 🙂
Click to expand...
Sounds like the one being selfish here is the man.
 
The fact is making your husband wait for more than a week or so is a grave situation for them. It is a matter of grave and mortal sins of impurity. Is that tenth of degree is really all that important ?

Instead why not obey your husband’s when you know he needs relations regardless of what the “chart” says . . . that way, you are obeying God. For a man, wait more than 7 days or so is very serious. … and they wonder why their husbands leave and behave “that way”… The problem is husbands don’t say anything because their wives will think they are weak. And so they try to be strong but typically will fail. And fall into sin.

Look to end result – one way you wind up with child and yes you may have to suffer for a short while the other way you commit a sin and perhaps suffer for eternity.
So wives please understand there are times when a man needs you for a very good reason if you use NFP please don’t take the most conservative approach unless there really is a very serious grave reason to do so. :)[/INDENT]

Wow. So your wife is just, well this is a family forum so I will not say what you are saying.
Marital relations are not allowed to relieve the man and save him from damnation. I am so tired of reading how men can’t control themselves from lust and how it’s always a woman’s fault if they fall.
 
bonvivantHermit said:
their wives will think they are weak. And so they try to be strong but typically will fail. And fall into sin.
Click to expand...
[/INDENT]

. I am so tired of reading how men can’t control themselves from lust and how it’s always a woman’s fault if they fall.

you did prove my point thank you- first call the man weak.
👍
 
dremcnally said:
The fact is making your husband wait for more than a week or so is a grave situation for them. It is a matter of grave and mortal sins of impurity. Is that tenth of degree is really all that important ?

Instead why not obey your husband’s when you know he needs relations regardless of what the “chart” says . . . that way, you are obeying God. For a man, wait more than 7 days or so is very serious. … and they wonder why their husbands leave and behave “that way”… The problem is husbands don’t say anything because their wives will think they are weak. And so they try to be strong but typically will fail. And fall into sin.
Click to expand...
:newidea: I’ve got an idea! Why don’t we advocate that men learn to live chastely according to their vocation and not blame other people for their inability to master their desires. If men needed sex all priests would be dead.
 
PaulinVA said:
:newidea: I’ve got an idea! Why don’t we advocate that men learn to live chastely according to their vocation and not blame other people for their inability to master their desires. If men needed sex all priests would be dead.
Click to expand...
Yes, that occurred to me too. Gosh, I think the Church should allow married priests b/c of their inability to control themselves. OR maybe the poster means, priests are NOT REAL men…
 
bonvivantHermit said:
Yes, that occurred to me too. Gosh, I think the Church should allow married priests b/c of their inability to control themselves. OR maybe the poster means, priests are NOT REAL men…
Click to expand...
What?

Priests are real men and are expected to master their desires.
 
PaulinVA said:
:newidea: I’ve got an idea! Why don’t we advocate that men learn to live chastely according to their vocation and not blame other people for their inability to master their desires. If men needed sex all priests would be dead.
Click to expand...
You obviously don’t know what the word vocation means. Part of Marriage vocation is marital relations and part of the priest vocation is celibacy To willfully deny ones right of their vocation is unjust. do you see the difference ? :ehh:
 
dremcnally said:
You obviously don’t know what the word vocation means. Part of Marriage vocation is marital relations and part of the priest vocation is celibacy To willfully deny ones right of their vocation is unjust. do you see the difference ? :ehh:
Click to expand...
I understand that living chastely as a married person means mastering your desires and using the sexual function correctly.

The idea that a man will explode if he doesn’t have sex once a week is absurd. To demand sex for release goes against the married vocation.
 
PaulinVA said:
:newidea: I’ve got an idea! Why don’t we advocate that men learn to live chastely according to their vocation and not blame other people for their inability to master their desires. If men needed sex all priests would be dead.
Click to expand...
I’ve got an idea! How about we return to the basic idea that chastity is the mutual job of husband and wife, two people who are joined in order to help each other through the trials of this life, and not a matter of “hey, if you fall, it’s not my fault”? That is no way to fly an airplane.

Would it make any wife feel better to know that her husband was going to hell because it was his own fault he fell? I don’t think so. Even in this life, if he has an affair, she is going to be devastated, and being able to blame him is not going to help.

Marital relations are one of the primary goods of marriage, referred to when canon law states:
Can. 1135 Each spouse has an equal duty and right to those things which belong to the partnership of conjugal life.

When a couple abstains from marital relations, it is to be a mutual decision and a mutual work. When husbands and wives start throwing around blame and are afraid to admit their true feelings for fear of recriminations, something has gone very wrong with how NFP is being used in that marriage. I don’t know how there can be an argument about that!

After all, in 1 Corinthians when St. Paul allows that abstinence may be practiced in a marriage, he specifically says “the husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband. A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife. Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.” (1 Cor. 7:3-5) He does not berate either spouse for being tempted, but counsels couples to act so as to avoid temptation.
 
I am not stating wives should be smug, or satisfied if their spouse sins themselves to hell.

Hardly. The point I am making is that it is not a woman’s role to put out so that here husband feels less stress to commit sexual sins.

In dremcnally’s example the wife is forcing a man to sin by using NFP…:eek:
Hardly, what St. Paul is speaking about. And
Can. 1135 simply states that spouses have conjugal duties and rights, they must be balanced and this text assumes a rightly ordered relationship not one in which a woman must perform even when not prepared for new life just to satisfy her man.
 
PaulinVA said:
I understand that living chastely as a married person means mastering your desires and using the sexual function correctly.

The idea that a man will explode if he doesn’t have sex once a week is absurd. To demand sex for release goes against the married vocation.
Click to expand...
Well, no, a man is not going to explode or be compelled to grab some strange woman if he doesn’t have sex once a week. From what I gather, the Jewish laws surrounding marital relations will typically require 12 days or more of abstinence per cycle, so this much ability was presumed to be within the capacity of every man. It is common for Orthodox commentators to write that this regular time of abstinence strengthens, rather than weakens, the marital bond.

Still, St. Paul counselled married couples to be careful when they abstain that they do not deprive themselves so long that they leave themselves open to temptation. The goal of avoiding temptation is a worthy one, and not something to be ashamed of. Really, it is the harsh way in which spouses are talking about each other that concerns me the most. Ruin your ability to communicate without criticism, defensiveness, and personal attacks, ruin your marriage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top