NH Diocese Latest to Restore Order of Sacraments

[commenter]

My understanding is that John’s baptisms were not sacramental. . As for when Christ instituted confirmation, we don’t know that either.

The apostles and other close followers were likely baptized before the Last Supper, which was prior to most of them receiving the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

But even if the order was different in the early Church, well they were responding to a particular pastoral situation. Our pastoral situation is different. Our ordinations and weddings are usually performed much later than most of theirs probably were. The surrounding society now is just as secular, but a very different kind of secularism, than they had to face.

If there is a pastoral purpose in 2017 for having “late” confirmations now, we should look into that. The fact that some arguments for late confirmations are not persuasive should not blind us to others, that may be persuasive. I am a little concerned about the use of the word “restore” in the thread title, as that has extreme positive connotations.

We may, if we choose, reinstate an earlier Christian practice if it is consistent with Scripture and meets **current **pastoral needs.

 

[twf]

It’s funny you should say that. Isn’t the “original order” biblically BEC? With the baptism of Jesus and presumably the apostles occurring in Matthew 3, then the Last Supper, and lastly Pentecost?

We see in the Acts that the apostles immediately confirmed those who were baptized. So yes, for new Christians of the apostolic era, it was baptism then confirmation and then Communion.

 

[commenter]

We see in the Acts that the apostles immediately confirmed those who were baptized. So yes, for new Christians of the apostolic era, it was baptism then confirmation and then Communion.

Did the apostles receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit before, or after, the Last Supper?

In today’s RCIA program, those 3 sacraments are often offered about the same time for adults. I don’t think the biblical accounts can be used to prove a particular pastoral order for children and youths. Does late (over 16 years old) confirmation respond to a pastoral need for our own time? Perhaps. Our pastoral needs are different from the early Church.

 

[Wesrock]

Did the apostles receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit before, or after, the Last Supper?

I wouldn’t look so much at how the apostles were ordained but at how they then went and initiated new people into the Church and the practices they established.

 

[twf]

Did the apostles receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit before, or after, the Last Supper?

In today’s RCIA program, those 3 sacraments are often offered about the same time for adults. I don’t think the biblical accounts can be used to prove a particular pastoral order for children and youths. Does late (over 16 years old) confirmation respond to a pastoral need for our own time? Perhaps. Our pastoral needs are different from the early Church.

To be fair, I’m probably the wrong person to ask. I personally think the Latin Church should embrace its ancient roots and follow the Eastern lead on this: baptism, confirmation, and communion for infants. “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them…”
Those graces will be “awakened” and grow over the course of the child’s life.

 

[Vico]

To your list, I would add another, earlier time period:

1. Bible itself - The fullness of the Spirit came to people when they were adults, or becoming adults, or young adults ready to take on their mission in life.

In the OT they did not have the sacramental framework yet, though the Spirit did come on adults. In the NT, it appears to have been, at least a couple times, Baptism…Eucharist…Confirmation, at 3 different times.

I was just considering the New Covenant from the time after the complete institution of all the sacraments of Christian Initiation, that is, from at least the Resurrection (John 21:22) or from Pentecost.

 

[commenter]

I was just considering the New Covenant from the time after the complete institution of all the sacraments of Christian Initiation, that is, from at least the Resurrection (John 21:22) or from Pentecost.

Well, ok.

But your list shows the Church making adjustments from one era to another, perhaps to better meet perceived pastoral need, which changed from one time to another. We can learn from the Church’s experience, both success and failure, during all the various periods. I think some people point to what they believe is the earliest practice, or “order”, and make restoration of that the ideal.

The ideal in 2017 is to consider Scripture, and the various epics in history, but make a pastoral response to the current situation.

 

[Vico]

Well, ok.

But your list shows the Church making adjustments from one era to another, perhaps to better meet perceived pastoral need, which changed from one time to another. We can learn from the Church’s experience, both success and failure, during all the various periods. I think some people point to what they believe is the earliest practice, or “order”, and make restoration of that the ideal.

The ideal in 2017 is to consider Scripture, and the various epics in history, but make a pastoral response to the current situation.

It varies, per the appropriate canon law, based upon the Catholic church sui iuris (CIC 1983 = Latin, CCEO 1992 = eastern):

CIC Canon 891 The sacrament of confirmation is to be conferred on the faithful at about the age of discretion unless the conference of bishops has determined another age, or there is danger of death, or in the judgment of the minister a grave cause suggests otherwise.

CCEO Canon 694 According to the tradition of the Eastern Churches, chrismation with holy myron is administered by a presbyter either in conjunction with baptism or separately.

And it remains the teaching of the Catholic Church that the Eucharist completes the Christian initiation in the order of Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist.

Catechism
1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord’s own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.

 

[commenter]

It varies, per the appropriate canon law, based upon the Catholic church sui iuris (CIC 1983 = Latin, CCEO 1992 = eastern):

CIC Canon 891 The sacrament of confirmation is to be conferred on the faithful at about the age of discretion unless the conference of bishops has determined another age, or there is danger of death, or in the judgment of the minister a grave cause suggests otherwise.

CCEO Canon 694 According to the tradition of the Eastern Churches, chrismation with holy myron is administered by a presbyter either in conjunction with baptism or separately.

And it remains the teaching of the Catholic Church that the Eucharist completes the Christian initiation in the order of Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist.

Catechism
1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord’s own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.

Thanks. Good documentation.