Nice homily until he mentions conscience

[GandalfTheWhite]

I went to a mass on Wednesday and the priests homily started quite well. He was saying many good things and said that while many talk about family planning, not many ever mention natural family planning. He also said that we should trust God and include him in the equation. That He sure doesn’t want us to live aneasy life and enjoy consumerist way of living but he also will not make us suffer and misserable (referrence to people with small families). He said that we should read Humanae Vitae and embrace it.

But the last thing he said was that if we read it and conclude that we cannot follow it because of their coinscience then we should ignore it.

That made me very sad. What’s up with with people trying to put coinscience above the authority and truth? With so many “wanna-be-priestesses” and all that, doesn’t it prove itself to be wrong?

 

[CHCatholic]

I’ve heard many people emphasize the importance of conscience and I believe it to be true. But of course, we must form our consciences properly and following a misconstrued conscience isn’t better than ignoring said conscience.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

There are two sides of the same coin. On one hand you should follow your consciousness but on the other hand it is our duty to form our conscience in accordance with the teaching of the Church. If we don’t do that then we are guilty unless we are trully ignorant of the Truth. It’s really twisted when a priest tells peple to follow their misguided conscience instead of helping them to realize where the truth is. In the end all he said is that the Truth is relative and it applied to those who agree with it. Don’t you think?

 

[Sr_Sally]

We didn’t hear the homily, so we can’t judge exactly what your priest said.

I suggest 2 things. One is that you ask the priest (in a very charitable, humble manner) what he meant by following your conscience. Perhaps you misunderstood him, or perhaps he will realize he was not clear and take another opportunity to explain better.

Also, since you are a memeber of the parish, you can volunter to help with NFP training in some capacity or perhaps to work with high school or college youth to catch them before they are married and help them understand the truth.

 

[misterbee]

The very term of ‘conscience’ means, literally, ‘with knowledge’ and I think too many people think it means ‘what makes me feel good or right.’

You can only follow your conscience if you’re adequately informed with the Truth.

I’m very wary of the phrase ‘follow your conscience’ after perusing the Catholics for a Free Choice website and seeing that their rationale for supporting abortion and contraception is their ‘conscience.’ Their magazine is even called ‘Conscience.’

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I suggest 2 things. One is that you ask the priest (in a very charitable, humble manner) what he meant by following your conscience. Perhaps you misunderstood him, or perhaps he will realize he was not clear and take another opportunity to explain better.

Yes, I see your point. But I was there only for confession and mass but I normally don’t go there. It’s actually quite far from where I stay but that day I had other things to do nearby. I’m also not the kind of person who goes around to correct people. I know that this is not necessary always bad, but I just have difficulty doing that. Especially when he is a priest and I was there on a visit.

Also, since you are a memeber of the parish, you can volunter to help with NFP training in some capacity or perhaps to work with high school or college youth to catch them before they are married and help them understand the truth.

I’m not. I’m only visiting my parents for Christmas.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

The very term of ‘conscience’ means, literally, ‘with knowledge’ and I think too many people think it means ‘what makes me feel good or right.’

You can only follow your conscience if you’re adequately informed with the Truth.

I’m very wary of the phrase ‘follow your conscience’ after perusing the Catholics for a Free Choice website and seeing that their rationale for supporting abortion and contraception is their ‘conscience.’ Their magazine is even called ‘Conscience.’

That’s how I feel. Whenever someone mentions that I get this little warning alarm in my head. I’m just getting allergic the that phrase after seeing all those heretical and pseudocatholic website.

 

[Sr_Sally]

Since you were only there for a vist, than I agree that you shouldn’t approach the priest. Best solution now is to pray for him and for that parish.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

That’s how I feel. Whenever someone mentions that I get this little warning alarm in my head. I’m just getting allergic the that phrase after seeing all those heretical and pseudocatholic website.

The priest is in a fix. He knows he has a duty to preach Catholic teaching. He also knows that, on this issue, the majority of the congregation are not prepared to accept it. It is understandable that he should fudge a bit.

 

[adamsaj]

The priest is in a fix. He knows he has a duty to preach Catholic teaching. He also knows that, on this issue, the majority of the congregation are not prepared to accept it. It is understandable that he should fudge a bit.

im sorry, but i have to disagree with you. (as best as we can tell with the information given) this is not a minor fudge, this is a priest getting up in front of his parishoners and, in the name of the Church, telling them it is ok to disagree with the Church (which teaches with the authority of God himself) and commit mortal sin. this puts the people who hear it in grave danger. it is reckless and irresponsable, and no matter how much pressure a priest is under, there is no excuse for this.

 

[palmas85]

The priest is in a fix. He knows he has a duty to preach Catholic teaching. He also knows that, on this issue, the majority of the congregation are not prepared to accept it. It is understandable that he should fudge a bit.

No the Priest isn’t. The Priest is the Spiritual Leader of his parish. It is not only his right to instruct the parishners properly
**
IT IS HIS DUTY**

His failure to do so can result in horrific harm to the spiritual well being of his parish.

So what if the congregation is not prepared to accept it. Something is either real or it isn’t.

Lets expand for a moment for the sake of argument. Lets say the majority of the congregation isn’t as you say prepared to accept the Catholic belief that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. Is it then OK for the Pastor to “fudge” a bit and say it is merely symbolic or some other such thing?

Once you start fudging on things you tend to lose control of a situation very quickly.

 

[afitz211]

I agree with the last poster in that the duty of the priest is to preach the mission of the church no matter how difficult it might seem in a secular world. This is what you sign up for when you go to seminary.
That being said, this is an issue I shudder at thinking about going into seminary when even a fair percentage of seminarians do not fully embrace this teaching (and moreso will not spread this teaching.)
I would also suggest talking to the priest about what he means about conscience (because unfortunately a lot of people use Gaudium et Spes as a proof text incorrectly, in the part where it says something to the extent of follow your conscience (and most people ignore taking the time to actually follow it.)
What I get out of this article is that this is something we need to discuss in our Catholic schools and universities. Being a Resident Assistant for a freshmen floor and examining what our university teaches students about contraception and sexual norms in general is scary. It is either an ignored issue, or we get the position of it really doesn’t matter (too many people embrace this principle of totality, and do not realize that bad habits are started because of a belief in the principle of totality, nice job Satan you’ve outsmarted a great percentage of people.) We need to have teachers and leaders who are not afraid to embrace the full teaching of the Catholic church and spread this to their congregations.
Part of this I also see as all of us need to say the hard things that need to be said. We must be the voice in our classes or parishes when teaching does not live up to what the Catholic standard is. But before we speak we must be guided by the words “O Holy Trinity, let thy words come from my lips and guide your people.” When we speak in love in accord with the will of God amazing things can happen.
Best of luck to you with this situation. Remember conscience must always be well-formed and thought out, and the principle of totality (which is a common argument to Humanae Vitae) is not consistent with Catholic teaching.

Grace and Peace,

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

His failure to do so [instruct properly]can result in horrific harm to the spiritual well being of his parish.

Once you start fudging on things you tend to lose control of a situation very quickly.

The problem if he doesn’t fudge - he says “if you use contraceptives you are cut off from the body of the Church until you confess, and for the confession to be valid you must have a firm intention of not using them again” then he also loses control of the situation. Short term he knows that people will walk out and complaints will go to the bishop. Long term, anything could happen.

All parents, all teachers know that the pure theory is much easier to articulate than it is to put in practise when faced with a class or a child who won’t behave as you want them to. The same goes for parishes.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

The problem if he doesn’t fudge - he says “if you use contraceptives you are cut off from the body of the Church until you confess, and for the confession to be valid you must have a firm intention of not using them again” then he also loses control of the situation. Short term he knows that people will walk out and complaints will go to the bishop. Long term, anything could happen.

All parents, all teachers know that the pure theory is much easier to articulate than it is to put in practise when faced with a class or a child who won’t behave as you want them to. The same goes for parishes.

If a priest, for whatever reason, has a problem saying how things really are then shoudn’t mention those things at all. If he doesn’t say them then he at least doesn’t lead people to sin. But in all honesty, there really isn’t a reason to say what you just said. If he didn’t say the last part (the one about conscience) I think I woudn’t have any problem with his homily and I would think that he made some good points.

Now, this is only my opinion, but I believe that he actually believes what he said. Maybe he wanted to sound a bit less controversial by saying it, but I don’t think his intend was to mispresent the truth.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

If he didn’t say the last part (the one about conscience) I think I woudn’t have any problem with his homily and I would think that he made some good points.

Now, this is only my opinion, but I believe that he actually believes what he said. Maybe he wanted to sound a bit less controversial by saying it, but I don’t think his intend was to mispresent the truth.

What he actually said is in fact Catholic teaching. Ultimately conscience is sovereign, and if your conscience tells ylou to leave the Church, you must do that.

The problem is that he is presenting an extraordinary situation as normal, and then implying that the decision to use contraception can be compartmentalised, with no implications for the rest of ones Catholic practise. It’s a common fudge. However as I said, I’ve got real sympathy with the priest. The congregation are the ones really at fault, he’s just trying to salvage something from the situation.

 

[stmaria]

What he actually said is in fact Catholic teaching. Ultimately conscience is sovereign, and if your conscience tells ylou to leave the Church, you must do that.

Can you clarify that this is Church teaching? Are you saying that it is Church teaching to following your conscience into error?

The problem is that he is presenting an extraordinary situation as normal, and then implying that the decision to use contraception can be compartmentalised, with no implications for the rest of ones Catholic practise. It’s a common fudge. However as I said, I’ve got real sympathy with the priest. The congregation are the ones really at fault,

 

[misterbee]

Now, here’s a big ‘what if?’

Perhaps he was saying: ‘If it’s against your conscience to use NFP then don’t use NFP’ - not - ‘If it’s against your conscience to use NFP use contraception.’

Some people use NFP as a form of contraception and not as it’s supposed to be used. NFP is not exclusively used to not have babies, it’s used as an instrument to be more in tune with God’s will so we don’t reject it when He says it’s time to bring another life in to the world.

Maybe the priest was really just saying, ‘it’s either NFP or nothing… and even then, if your conscience says that you’ll use NFP as contraception, then don’t do it.’

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

What he actually said is in fact Catholic teaching. Ultimately conscience is sovereign, and if your conscience tells ylou to leave the Church, you must do that.

There is no salvation outside of the Church. I don’t think how you could argue about true ignorance in this case…

And even if…you need to show us that the Church actually teaches this.

The problem is that he is presenting an extraordinary situation as normal, and then implying that the decision to use contraception can be compartmentalised, with no implications for the rest of ones Catholic practise. It’s a common fudge. However as I said, I’ve got real sympathy with the priest. The congregation are the ones really at fault, he’s just trying to salvage something from the situation.

Ok, perhaps he was afraid but the Church is in the touristic part of the city centre, where not many people actually live. So I don’t think he has that many regular parisheners. Also most of the people are old people above 60 (which is sadly normal over here).

misterbee:

Perhaps he was saying: ‘If it’s against your conscience to use NFP then don’t use NFP’ - not - ‘If it’s against your conscience to use NFP use contraception.’

Well, not really. He was referring to Humanae Vitae not NFP. At least that’s the way he worded it or I understood it.

 

[adamsaj]

What he actually said is in fact Catholic teaching. Ultimately conscience is sovereign, and if your conscience tells ylou to leave the Church, you must do that.
QUOTE]

no, if your conscience tells you to leave the Church, then it is wrong and needs to be properly formed. the church never taught that we can overrule Church teaching because we disagree with it. it always stresses the need to form you conscience according to the Churches teaching. Scripture backs this up in saying that we must have Consciences enlightened by the Holy Spirit (which speaks through the Church). you will never find anything in Catholic or ligetimate Christian teaching to justify your statement.

 

[palmas85]

The problem if he doesn’t fudge - he says “if you use contraceptives you are cut off from the body of the Church until you confess, and for the confession to be valid you must have a firm intention of not using them again” then he also loses control of the situation. Short term he knows that people will walk out and complaints will go to the bishop. Long term, anything could happen.

All parents, all teachers know that the pure theory is much easier to articulate than it is to put in practise when faced with a class or a child who won’t behave as you want them to. The same goes for parishes.

He apparently has no control of the situation now. If one is going to lose control of something would it not be better to lose it for the right reason rather than the wrong one?