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KCT
Guest
I don’t know, but I once heard a priest say ‘nice’ was the minimum we should be. It’s not a compliment. —KCT
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YinYangMom
Guest
I think people do, in general - equate niceness with what is necessary for salvation - but from Catholics, I haven’t experienced that. Most, even the INOs and Cafeterias work hard to meeting the requirements of the faith that they know of (and accept)…they don’t let themselves off the hook, so to speak, by living like non-Catholics or non-Christians - just settling for being ‘nice’.
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YinYangMom
Guest
Oh, ok.I fear you lost my point.I did not say they were in hell either.
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YinYangMom
Guest
And I’m starting to understand that it really isn’t as easy as a person rejecting truth and finding excuses for not meeting a higher standard as much as it is the Grace of the Holy Spirit has not touched them enough to reveal the Truth to them. They haven’t had their ‘aha’ moment, but they will - thanks to those of us who love them and pray for them.
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Darrel
Guest
Everyone for the most part has everything in them from nice to war machine. People are more complex then just nice or not nice.
So then It is reasonable to assume that salvation can be obtained or lost by both nice or mean people. How can anyone be perfectly nice all the time?
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So then It is reasonable to assume that salvation can be obtained or lost by both nice or mean people. How can anyone be perfectly nice all the time?
-D
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fix
Guest
You know well that we each get the grace necessary for salvation. We accept it or reject it. Christ spoken often about the perils leading to hell. Those admonitions were not just hyperbole.
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felra
Guest
As Jesus fiercely pointed out, salvation is a matter of who you know and also what you do. Being nice is not a prerequisite for entry into heaven (or hell for that matter). One can start out on the path of salvation, only to drift, fall away, lose their salvation by turning away from total dependence upon God (while being “nice” and full of outward supernatural gifts as well).
Matthew**, Chapter 7:21-23 “**"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’”
1 Timothy**, *Chapter 5:8 “***And whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
2 Peter**, *Chapter 2:20-21 “***For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.”
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wcknight
Guest
Being nice in itself doesn’t get you into Heaven…
But if you think about it, people who are “nice” are usually perceived that way because they treat folks fairly. My guess is that they keep the golden rule, they do unto others as they would have them do unto them, and most likely are charitable and merciful. I can’t imagine a “nice” person who is neither merciful nor charitable.
In the end we will all be judged on love, did we love God and did we love our neighbor. It looks like the nice person satisfies the latter and is questionable on the former. An athiest or agnostic may come into this category.
It would be a shame if some nice folks ended up in Hell. I’m sure it is possible but I would think God would grant them the mercy they showed others, and they will be judged on their actions. Of course if they still choose to reject God, they have that right and can choose damnation if they want.
But if you think about it, people who are “nice” are usually perceived that way because they treat folks fairly. My guess is that they keep the golden rule, they do unto others as they would have them do unto them, and most likely are charitable and merciful. I can’t imagine a “nice” person who is neither merciful nor charitable.
In the end we will all be judged on love, did we love God and did we love our neighbor. It looks like the nice person satisfies the latter and is questionable on the former. An athiest or agnostic may come into this category.
It would be a shame if some nice folks ended up in Hell. I’m sure it is possible but I would think God would grant them the mercy they showed others, and they will be judged on their actions. Of course if they still choose to reject God, they have that right and can choose damnation if they want.
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John_of_Woking
Guest
They burn. Unless they accept the invisible promptings of grace in the soul.
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John_of_Woking
Guest
Have you spoken to them? Have you warned them of the dangers of hellfire??
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Libero
Guest
Maybe this is where the multiple levels of hell theory could come into action. Level I is supposedly a place that is not painfull, but there is no happiness there, it is like a large open field according to some people who have to talked on the matter.
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Topher
Guest
Its awsome that so many people have been interested in this thread and that it has started alot of conversation. That being the case I would like to put my own two cents in. This is kind of a paraphrase of something I said in a different forum but concerns this topic:
Some times people point out that they know alot of nice people who are living lives contrary to the teachings of the Church. Well that is great because, at times, being nice can be virtuous. But being nice is simply not enough, nor is being a “good person”. If that was all that was needed, then Christ would not have died on the cross.If niceness or being good were enough we could all just be good and nice and earn our place in heaven. But guess what. No one is good enough or nice enough to do that. We need the grace of God to get into heaven and we need to be made Holy by that grace to be aloud into heaven. Did you get that? We need to be Holy, not necessarily nice. In fact sometimes being Holy means not being nice, as was the case when Jesus wipped the money changers in the temple or called the pharisees a brood of vipers. A friend once told me that nice people sometimes do go to hell. That being said, I can be a really nice or “good” person but if I am living a sinful life, I am not being Holy. Not being Holy means that I am not participating with God’s grace. Guess what, no grace no heaven. That simple.
I also think that people often misuse the term “good person”. To most people, to be a good person means to be “nice”. Although kindness is part of being a good person, one need actually be objectively good to be a good person. And objective goodness is defined by the nature of God and not by the opinions of man. Therefore, a person cannot be a “good person” if they are actively living a homosexual life style or engaging in some other serious sin rather than seeking God. They maybe nice, maybe givinging, but not Good. Remember that God alone is good and for us to be have goodness in us we must participate in His goodness. And his goodness does not include living a life style contrary to Christ or his Church.
Some times people point out that they know alot of nice people who are living lives contrary to the teachings of the Church. Well that is great because, at times, being nice can be virtuous. But being nice is simply not enough, nor is being a “good person”. If that was all that was needed, then Christ would not have died on the cross.If niceness or being good were enough we could all just be good and nice and earn our place in heaven. But guess what. No one is good enough or nice enough to do that. We need the grace of God to get into heaven and we need to be made Holy by that grace to be aloud into heaven. Did you get that? We need to be Holy, not necessarily nice. In fact sometimes being Holy means not being nice, as was the case when Jesus wipped the money changers in the temple or called the pharisees a brood of vipers. A friend once told me that nice people sometimes do go to hell. That being said, I can be a really nice or “good” person but if I am living a sinful life, I am not being Holy. Not being Holy means that I am not participating with God’s grace. Guess what, no grace no heaven. That simple.
I also think that people often misuse the term “good person”. To most people, to be a good person means to be “nice”. Although kindness is part of being a good person, one need actually be objectively good to be a good person. And objective goodness is defined by the nature of God and not by the opinions of man. Therefore, a person cannot be a “good person” if they are actively living a homosexual life style or engaging in some other serious sin rather than seeking God. They maybe nice, maybe givinging, but not Good. Remember that God alone is good and for us to be have goodness in us we must participate in His goodness. And his goodness does not include living a life style contrary to Christ or his Church.
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Eileen_T
Guest
Revelations 3:14-16
14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.
16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.
I have some very nice children, brothers & sisters who have turned their backs on God. They use the same justifications I’ve read here…“I don’t rob or kill anyone.” They consider themselves good people.
And they are, by the world’s standards if not by God’s.
That would be okay if this world is all there was. But it isn’t. To me, their greatest sin is indifference. They don’t know if there really is a God and they can’t be bothered enough to search for Truth.
Yes, I believe the could go to Hell if they don’t repent. They don’t want to hear what I have to say so I talk to God about it, not them (except when a teaching moment comes along).
I figure it is my responsibility to pray and put my trust in God. They are all good, they just aren’t holy. Yet.
People talk so much about God being a God of Love, forgetting He is, as St Faustina reminded us, a God of Justice as well. He gave us free will. If we mis-use that free will to reject God on earth, Scripture is clear what that will mean.
14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.
16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.
I have some very nice children, brothers & sisters who have turned their backs on God. They use the same justifications I’ve read here…“I don’t rob or kill anyone.” They consider themselves good people.
And they are, by the world’s standards if not by God’s.
That would be okay if this world is all there was. But it isn’t. To me, their greatest sin is indifference. They don’t know if there really is a God and they can’t be bothered enough to search for Truth.
Yes, I believe the could go to Hell if they don’t repent. They don’t want to hear what I have to say so I talk to God about it, not them (except when a teaching moment comes along).
I figure it is my responsibility to pray and put my trust in God. They are all good, they just aren’t holy. Yet.
People talk so much about God being a God of Love, forgetting He is, as St Faustina reminded us, a God of Justice as well. He gave us free will. If we mis-use that free will to reject God on earth, Scripture is clear what that will mean.
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Brad
Guest
All of what you are doing is very noble and good and necessary. However, you seem possibly a tad presumptuous that this method with “get” them into heaven.
That is not a guarantee. Rejecting the truth is very serious and they should be told as such (I am not implying at all that this is easy to do but pray for the grace of an opportunity).
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Brad
Guest
Yes. Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And He meant it.
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Brad
Guest
Often, being nice in this sense and in today’s culture means not speaking the truth because it is too divisive. So someone is nice because they are not divisive. Futher, they are nice because they are not a bigot - they except any old way of living (“live and let live man”). In addition, they are nice because they like to socialize and aren’t always praying by themselves being an isolationist. They are also nice because they don’t spank their children and are buddys with them. They are nice because they don’t tell anyone about Hell so they have nothing to worry about. Thus, people feel comfortable around them. They are so very nice. They don’t stand in life chains and make judgments on people “choices” because they are nice. They don’t disply grisly photos of the dead unborn because they are nice and this would be too hurtful for people to see. They don’t speak loud or with conviction so their voice is pleasent to listen too. They are nice. They give candy to all the neighborhood kids and keep their lawn mowed and their house well kept. They are nice. As the kids get older, they are cool and let them have parties with a beer or two and a few r-rated movies because that’s what kids want to do. They are nice. They may divorce or even have a fling on the side but it’s all ok, because to everyone they are nice. Sometimes people have to do what they have to do. After all, it’s their life. As long as they are nice.
This list could go on but it demonstrates that what is “nice” is frequently not of value and often detrimental.
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Brad
Guest
Eileen T:
He is merciful. But He is Holy Holy Holy.
All of those not in union with the Church, including your children, are in my prayers.
Indeed God is Holy Holy Holy. He is not Mercy Mercy Mercy.
He is merciful. But He is Holy Holy Holy.
All of those not in union with the Church, including your children, are in my prayers.
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carol_marie
Guest
I was beginning to worry that the post I agreed with MOST was written by Christian WAB - who is not even Catholic. (a very good post by the way!
)We could be good all day long… but apart from God’s grace, our goodness is nothing but filthy rags. Because how “nice” is nice enough?? I’m nicer than my neighbor, but I’m not nearly as nice as my husband… does God have some sort of “niceness” chart? No. God sent his Son to die for our sins. It’s by his blood that we are cleansed… without faith in Jesus - we’re left with all of our sins and being nice all day long will not take those away.
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ProudToBCathlic
Guest
I always understood that the Church recognizes those within the Church in any way believes they are able to reach Heaven. This includes both people who have heard of the Church and those who haven’t…as long as they do what they think to be morally right, they are following God’s commandments. I mean, come on, God realizes that even those who have heard of the Church may not have received the gift of faith, and therefore may not be baptised. It’s not necessarily their fault that they don’t know the Truth!
On the other hand, one needs to be more than a “nice person” to reach Heaven. As I said before, they must do what they believe is morally right; in a way, they are following their conscience, whether they are in the Church or not. Now that leads to another question…those suicide bombers who think they are doing the right thing; do they end up in hell?
Always searching for the truth,
On the other hand, one needs to be more than a “nice person” to reach Heaven. As I said before, they must do what they believe is morally right; in a way, they are following their conscience, whether they are in the Church or not. Now that leads to another question…those suicide bombers who think they are doing the right thing; do they end up in hell?
Always searching for the truth,
C
Catilieth
Guest
Maybe it’s just me, but it seems to me that every time some heinous criminal is aprehended (serial killer, rapist, etc.), the media interviews all his neighbors and without exception, they all say how nice the man was.
When I was little (4 or 5), my father saw me talking, being friendly with a stranger. He gave me the “don’t talk with strangers” speach. I told him that the man looked like he was nice. He then told me something I’ve never forgotten. He said that for bad people to get away with doing bad things they had to be nice, or people would know right away that they were bad and put them in jail. A truer word has not been spoken. All con men are nice…it is their stock in trade. Nice has little or no correlation with virtue.
When I was little (4 or 5), my father saw me talking, being friendly with a stranger. He gave me the “don’t talk with strangers” speach. I told him that the man looked like he was nice. He then told me something I’ve never forgotten. He said that for bad people to get away with doing bad things they had to be nice, or people would know right away that they were bad and put them in jail. A truer word has not been spoken. All con men are nice…it is their stock in trade. Nice has little or no correlation with virtue.
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