Nicene and Apostles' Creed

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I understand the Protestant explanation for “catholic” is the small “c”. However, if you look at this quote again (from a post above), you will see that when the word “Catholic” was used in these prayers- the common meaning directly referring to the Catholic Church had already been established. Please look at the quote and link again:


That “Catholic” very early acquired its modern sense of denoting a particular group of churches united in a single, visible communion is important for how we read the writings of the Church Fathers and how we read early creeds. Protestants accept the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed, which make reference to the Catholic Church. The Apostles’ Creed states, “I believe . . . in the Holy Catholic Church”; the Nicene creed states, “I believe . . . in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” Both of these statements were written after “Catholic” had acquired its current meaning.

Also, what do “one, holy … and apostolic” mean to a Protestant? If you look at “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth” you can see that it identifies these as the four marks of the Church established by Christ and and that the Catholic Church fulfills all of these. I assume that Protestant churches would say they fulfill all of these requirement, too. But how?

Please scan down to “The Four Marks of The True Church” in this article to see what I mean.

catholic.com/library/pillar.asp
 
Somehow I got the idea that the Apostle’s Creed was very , very old, but of limited use in the East. It is possible that the Apostle’s Creed originated in the West.

Whatever it’s origin it may have been one of many baptismal formulae in use somewhere before the great councils.

+T+
Michael
 
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Hesychios:
Somehow I got the idea that the Apostle’s Creed was very , very old, but of limited use in the East. It is possible that the Apostle’s Creed originated in the West.

Whatever it’s origin it may have been one of many baptismal formulae in use somewhere before the great councils.

+T+
Michael
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It originated in the East with the Ecumenical Council
 
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Shibboleth:
It originated in the East with the Ecumenical Council
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Is it possible that you are thinking of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed?

I don’t recall that the Apostles’ Creed was endorsed in the early Councils.

+T+
Michael
 
Anytime catholic is used in lower case it refers to the universal church. Catholic in upper case refers to the Catholic Church.

so in the Creed stating “we believe in one, holy, catholic, apostolic church” means “we believe in one, holy, universal, comes from the apostles church”

If the world were perfect there wouldn’t be any denominations. Christ established ONE church and when the world ends there won’t be 200+ denominations in heaven. There is only ONE church in heaven.
 
As well, some sects take out “catholic” out and add “Christian.”
 
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AmberDale:
Anytime catholic is used in lower case it refers to the universal church. Catholic in upper case refers to the Catholic Church.

so in the Creed stating “we believe in one, holy, catholic, apostolic church” means “we believe in one, holy, universal, comes from the apostles church”

If the world were perfect there wouldn’t be any denominations. Christ established ONE church and when the world ends there won’t be 200+ denominations in heaven. There is only ONE church in heaven.
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Hi AmberDale! I haven’t seen you here before so I wanted to say “welcome”! 👋

I see that Protestants who recite the Creed believe that they are referring to the idea of “catholic” meaning universal. I was just pointing out that the article with the link says that when the Creeds were written, the word “catholic” had already come to its present meaning - referring specifically to the “Catholic Church” here on earth. Here is an expanded version of the quote from my post above:

Augustine also remarked that the Church “is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her … with strangers . . . they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” [The True Religion 7:12, ca. A.D. 390]. Thus the fact that the Church is generally or universally (catholically) called “Catholic” forms part of its title to that name.

**That “Catholic” very early acquired its modern sense of denoting a particular group of churches united in a single, visible communion is important for how we read the writings of the Church Fathers and how we read early creeds. Protestants accept the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed, which make reference to the Catholic Church. The Apostles’ Creed states, “I believe . . . in the Holy Catholic Church”; the Nicene creed states, “I believe . . . in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” Both of these statements were written after “Catholic” had acquired its current meaning… **

This principle is called the grammatical-historical method when applied to the Bible, and it is called “Constitutional originalism” or “strict constructionism” when applied to the U. S. Constitution. It is a principle which should be applied to all documents, including the creeds of the early Church. Since “Catholic” already had its modern meaning when it was placed in the creeds, the creeds must be taken to affirm belief in a single, visible communion of believers known as the Catholic Church.

**If you have time, please read the whole article. It shows how the Creeds were written specifically for the Catholic Church and, as such does not represent the beliefs of other Christian faiths. Also, in what way are Protestant churches “apostolic”? Because they use a bible based on ours which was written by apostles? They don’t have claim to “apostolic succession” with bishops and the pope so I don’t understand how they are “apostolic”. **

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9311def.asp
 
I really didn’t know that other churches stated the Creeds at all. Well, I know that the Catholic church does. Anglicans do and so do Orthodox.
Orthodox people believe they came from the apostles too. They believe Catholics split from them not them from Catholics during the great Schism. They even have apostolic succesion.
What other churches state the Creeds? I don’t know. My old church didn’t, it was very anti Catholic. I’m a former protestant. Went to what they called a non-denominational church. Later it kind of started saying it was part of the Church of Christ of Christian Union.
we didn’t say any of the stuff in the Creeds. But after reading the creeds, I believed it all.

Ever notice how the Apostles creed says Christ descended into hell and the Nicene creed just says he died and rose again. Or how about the Apostles says we believe in the resurection of the body but the Nicene says the resurection of the dead?
Just plays on words to some, but not to others.
 
AmberDale- I was surprised to find a website for a “Reformed” church that bases its philosophy on the Reformation. It put the Creeds under its list of beliefs saying that they are Bible believers but that the Creeds were Scripturely sound and, thus, fit with their beliefs. Methodists and Baptists have been named above as being churches that use the Creeds. At least the church you attended understood the significance of the Creeds enough to exclude them. I hadn’t noticed the changes that you mentioned. That’s interesting! It would seem that “saints” and “catholic” should be removed from the “Apostles Creed” and “one”, “catholic” and “apostolic” should be removed, too, to fit with the beliefs of the Protestant faiths who recite them. Actually, why not just create a whole new Creed for new faiths? I’m still puzzled!
 
Yup. It is very old, older than the Nicene Creed which was formulated out from the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople. It, obviously, originated in the west and probably served partially as blueprint for the Nicene Creed.

The Apostle’s Creed can be traced back to the earliest Roman Creed (AD200), once quoted by Tertullian, must have come from the Roman baptismal liturgy and was used as a baptismal creed by the catachumens in Rome not in the present prayer form but as a form of questions in which the catachumens gave answers to indicating that they both understood and believed.
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Hesychios:
Somehow I got the idea that the Apostle’s Creed was very , very old, but of limited use in the East. It is possible that the Apostle’s Creed originated in the West.

Whatever it’s origin it may have been one of many baptismal formulae in use somewhere before the great councils.

+T+
Michael
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Shibboleth:
Yep… I was sorry.
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I stated this wrong so it looks like I was sorry at one time but am not now…

I meant

Yes, I was confused and wrong… sorry.
 
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Eden:
Actually, why not just create a whole new Creed for new faiths? I’m still puzzled!
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Sometimes folks do write new creeds. Here’s the creed of Bob Jones University.

Those who stick with the ancient creeds do so because, in my opinion, they want to preserve the continuity between then and now, no matter how much they’ve departed from the old beliefs.
 
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Eden:
It would seem that “saints” and “catholic” should be removed from the “Apostles Creed” and “one”, “catholic” and “apostolic” should be removed, too, to fit with the beliefs of the Protestant faiths who recite them.
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Methodists believe in one church–It is made up of all who believe & follow the Lord Jesus Christ, whether they are Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Orthodox, Baptist, etc…We worship the same Lord in different buildings, with different liturgies, & with varying understanding of the scriptures. That is what we mean by “one”.
We believe that all of us who follow Jesus are doing so, in the steps of the apostles, hence “apostolic”.
Catholic & saints I explained in an earlier post…
 
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Kevan:
Sometimes folks do write new creeds. Here’s the creed of Bob Jones University.

Those who stick with the ancient creeds do so because, in my opinion, they want to preserve the continuity between then and now, no matter how much they’ve departed from the old beliefs.
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I read that creed and it fails bigtime on some very basic pricipals. The biggest offense I usually see in home brewed creeds is when they put the Bible before God on the list. In the case of the BJU creed it is very deficient on many key issues.

I agree with the second part, that many do keep old creeds simply because they want to pretend they still go by what it says. But as most know when looking into those groups that they have made newer creeds (which have their own spin on things) to take the old ones place though they keep both.
But you cant say that about all groups, if we did then that would mean that the truth didnt survive over the years, when we know as Catholics thats not the case!!
 
Rand Al'Thor:
The word “catholic” (note the lower case in the creeds) is used to mean “universal”…the meaning of the word. It’s kind of funny, though, because obviously Protestants DONT believe in one universal church because they have over 33,000 different churches.
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I don’t understand the last sentence; at least in my tradition, membership in the Church takes on life in three ways:
  • our baptism unites us with Christ and all other Christians who are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
  • our membership/confirmation vows unite us with other United Methodists who vow to be loyal to the doctrine and discipline of the UMC
  • our local church vows that signify our willingness to live in and contribute to the local church community life and public ministry
I would suggest that even though Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and other Rites claim to have “valid orders”, yet have differing (or non-existent) understandings of papal authority, interpretations of the Nicene Creed, etc., that the “differences” in the Universal Church are in at least over 33,003 different churches. 😃

If I’m not mistaken, your Canon Law recognizes the “imperfect” relationship of “separated brethern.” Is it something that Catholics grudgingly have to admit, or do some just flat out deny it?

There’s nothing wrong with loyalty and allegiance to your faith. But sometimes it seems that some Catholics (just as some Protestants) go over the line of charity… and your own Canon Law.

Respectfully,

O+
 
I understand what you are saying here. If I have been uncharitable on this thread I apologize. It was interesting that you quoted the words “imperfect” and “separated”. Do your church members consider themselves to be?
 
Just browsed through and noticed that no one has mentioned that the Presbyterian Church (PCUSA) recites the Apostles Creed.

I am Episcopalian…we recite the Nicene at every Mass and the Apostles’ at Baptisms.
 
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