Nicene Creed Missing from Mass

[diggerdomer]

I don’t know what the liturgical English translation was in the 1960’s (when parts of the Mass began to be permitted in the vernacular) before the complete revision of the Mass was promulgated in 1969, but I do know that personal missals (meant for use by the faithful to help participate in the Mass) from 1962 and earlier translate Et cum spiritu tuo as “And with your/thy spirit.” I’ve never seen a personal missal for the Extraordinary Form translate it as “And also with you.”

Unfortunately, the Consilium was operating under the principle that a liturgical translation had to be drawn up from scratch, and not from “popular” translations such as those found in personal missals, although those “popular” translations were usually more accurate than the translations developed in their stead.

So as I understand it, then, there was no change in the English translation of the Missal promulgated by Paul VI?

Of COURSE there was a translation change in the development of the new Missal, but I thought (maybe incorrectly) that the posting I responded to said that there was some change in the English translation of the Missal of Paul VI regarding with you/with your spirit.

 

[diggerdomer]

Of course, Christ is our King, and the Pope is his Vicar. He has been given the keys to bind and loose in the name of Christ.

ALL Bishops are Vicars of Christ.

 

[japhy]

I do take issue with people asserting that the Church forbids a priest from saying “good morning” during the Introductory Rites. I don’t think the Church does.

I would guess that Fr. David and I are of the (same) opinion that “good morning” is not liturgical (and simply secular) so it is “out of place” even in the beginning of the Mass where the priest is permitted to introduce the liturgy being celebrated that day.

 

[CWBetts]

I would guess that Fr. David and I are of the (same) opinion that “good morning” is not liturgical (and simply secular) so it is “out of place” even in the beginning of the Mass where the priest is permitted to introduce the liturgy being celebrated that day.

Lets go ahead and make Mass as unwelcoming as possible.

 

[benedictgal]

ALL Bishops are Vicars of Christ.

No. This title is specifically for the Holy Father, as he is Christ’s Vicar on earth, per the Petrine ministry which Jesus conferred on Peter and his successors. You seem to think that the Church regards the Holy Father as first among equals, but, that is not the case. Jesus did give the other Apostles and their successors limited authority to bind and loose, but, to Peter he gave his full authority. He further reconfirmed it by the Sea of Tiberius when He told Peter to feed his sheep, tend his sheep and feed his lambs.

 

[benedictgal]

Lets go ahead and make Mass as unwelcoming as possible.

It’s not about making the Mass unwelcome. Rather, it is about emphasizing the fact that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not some mundane activity. We are entering God’s time, sacred time, not making some secular greeting.

This kind of reasoning, as I see it, makes the Mass more horizontal than vertical. We need to remember that God is the center of the Mass.

 

[CWBetts]

It’s not about making the Mass unwelcome. Rather, it is about emphasizing the fact that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not some mundane activity. We are entering God’s time, sacred time, not making some secular greeting.

This kind of reasoning, as I see it, makes the Mass more horizontal than vertical. We need to remember that God is the center of the Mass.

Get off your high horse. Saying “Good morning” before the mass even starts (so it isn’t adding anything to the liturgy" does not detract. There is nothing wrong with friendliness

 

[benedictgal]

Get off your high horse. Saying “Good morning” before the mass even starts (so it isn’t adding anything to the liturgy" does not detract. There is nothing wrong with friendliness

There is no need to be rude. If you want to exchange pleasantries, do so in the vestibule or outside of the church. When Mass begins, we are entering God’s time. We are being a part of something sacred. Furthermore, a secular greeting makes the Mass more of a community-based act where the horizontal takes precedence over God, the vertical.

 

[CWBetts]

There is no need to be rude. If you want to exchange pleasantries, do so in the vestibule or outside of the church. When Mass begins, we are entering God’s time. We are being a part of something sacred. Furthermore, a secular greeting makes the Mass more of a community-based act where the horizontal takes precedence over God, the vertical.

Wasn’t being rude. It just so happens every last one of your posts carries an attitude of arrogance. Your posts seem to say that anyone who disagrees with you in wrong. And There is absolutely nothing wrong when our cantor says “Good morning. Please join us in singing our opening hymn…” Furthermore, when I see friends before Mass we will exchange a quick hello or wave. St Paul numeous times in his letters tell us to “Greet one another” Im thinking your parish is a cold place indeed if you are typical.

 

[japhy]

There is absolutely nothing wrong when our cantor says “Good morning. Please join us in singing our opening hymn…”

And that’s different from the priest approaching the altar, kissing it, and beginning Mass with a “good morning” (before or after the Sign of the Cross and/or the proper liturgical greeting).

St Paul numeous times in his letters tell us to “Greet one another”

With a holy kiss, and with words like “Grace and peace to you from God our Father…”

 

[japhy]

Lets go ahead and make Mass as unwelcoming as possible.

Mass can be welcoming and inviting without importing secular conversation. A priest who says “The Lord be with you” with the same (or more!) sincerity and enthusiasm as “Good morning” might actually make a spiritual impact on the congregation.

 

[CWBetts]

Mass can be welcoming and inviting without importing secular conversation. A priest who says “The Lord be with you” with the same (or more!) sincerity and enthusiasm as “Good morning” might actually make a spiritual impact on the congregation.

You are paying no attention whatsoever to what i have said. Everything I have talked about has been BEFORE THE MASS. Once the Mass actually starts is different.

 

[diggerdomer]

I would guess that Fr. David and I are of the (same) opinion that “good morning” is not liturgical (and simply secular) so it is “out of place” even in the beginning of the Mass where the priest is permitted to introduce the liturgy being celebrated that day.

Ok, that’s fine. I guess I tend to think that there’s not a clear break between what’s liturgical and secular, just like there’s not a clear break in the Church between the human/divine elements. And, in liturgy, imho, both the human and divine elements are present and should be considered.

But, whether or not a priest says good morning, e.g., is not essential.

 

[diggerdomer]

No. This title is specifically for the Holy Father, as he is Christ’s Vicar on earth, per the Petrine ministry which Jesus conferred on Peter and his successors. You seem to think that the Church regards the Holy Father as first among equals, but, that is not the case. Jesus did give the other Apostles and their successors limited authority to bind and loose, but, to Peter he gave his full authority. He further reconfirmed it by the Sea of Tiberius when He told Peter to feed his sheep, tend his sheep and feed his lambs.

No. Sorry, that statement is not historically accurate.

The Pope and only the Pope is the Vicar of Peter.

All bishops are legitimately called the Vicar of Christ. In the second millenium, this title did tend to become reserved only for the Bishop of Rome–in the Catholic Church–but, historically from the origins of the universal Catholic Church (sorry, that’s redundant) the title was used for ALL Bishops as successors to the Apostles.

And, again, and again, and again, I would ask that any time you are tempted to type “you seem to think…” in response to my posts that you instead simply ask for clarification if you misunderstand or read more into what I post than is actually the fact. It’s really hard to carry on a conversation when I have to continually respond to and deny what you read into and inaccurately represent my posts. Thanks.

 

[japhy]

You are paying no attention whatsoever to what i have said. Everything I have talked about has been BEFORE THE MASS. Once the Mass actually starts is different.

Read posts 40, 43, 44, and 51 again.

In post 40, diggerdomer spoke of “a priest from saying ‘good morning’ during the Introductory Rites”.

In post 43, I responded to digger; this was about secular greetings DURING the Mass.

In post 44, you responded to me with one sentence (“Lets go ahead and make Mass as unwelcoming as possible.”). The post you replied to was in the context of secular greetings during the Introductory Rites.

In post 51, I responded to your one sentence, in the context of the branch of the discussion you entered into. It had nothing to do with your previous posts.

I think you have over-reacted:

You are paying no attention whatsoever to what i have said.

I am paying attention to what you have been saying, but I was responding to the comment you made to a discussion dealing with secular statements made during the Mass.

Everything I have talked about has been BEFORE THE MASS.

Great. That’s not what diggerdomer and I were talking about.

 

[benedictgal]

No. Sorry, that statement is not historically accurate.

The Pope and only the Pope is the Vicar of Peter.

All bishops are legitimately called the Vicar of Christ. In the second millenium, this title did tend to become reserved only for the Bishop of Rome–in the Catholic Church–but, historically from the origins of the universal Catholic Church (sorry, that’s redundant) the title was used for ALL Bishops as successors to the Apostles.

And, again, and again, and again, I would ask that any time you are tempted to type “you seem to think…” in response to my posts that you instead simply ask for clarification if you misunderstand or read more into what I post than is actually the fact. It’s really hard to carry on a conversation when I have to continually respond to and deny what you read into and inaccurately represent my posts. Thanks.

You are really confusing the fact that the Holy Father is the Successor to St. Peter and the Vicar of Christ on Earth. Vicar of Christ is one of the titles of the Holy Father. How can he be St. Peter’s vicar? Your line of thinking seems to diminish the role of the Holy Father, making him first among equals when St. Matthew’s Gospel states otherwise.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The title pope, once used with far greater latitude (see below, section V), is at present employed solely to denote the Bishop of Rome, who, in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church, **the Vicar of Christ upon earth. **

The bishops are the successors to the Apostles, but, only the Holy Father is the successor of St. Peter. Jesus charged St. Peter and his successors with the task of serving as the visible head of the Church,not the rest of the Apostolic band. Furthermore, the Gospels record the primacy of St. Peter by listing him at the head of the Apostles. St. Paul even makes mention of the fact that he had to consult with Cephas (Peter) and was first presented to him.

Now regarding the greeting, the celebrant should not begin the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with an exchange of pleasantries. This makes the Mass turn into some sort of community greeting with the Holy Sacrifice as an afterthough. What we tend to forget is that the Mass is not just about the warm bodies in the pews. We are surrounded by an unseen cloud of witnesses, the angels, the Church Triumphant (in heaven) and the Church Suffering (those in purgatory). Heaven and earth unite. We are not the only ones in the mix.

 

[diggerdomer]

You are really confusing the fact that the Holy Father is the Successor to St. Peter and the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

No I am not.

Vicar of Christ is one of the titles of the Holy Father.

Yes of course. That’s what I said.

How can he be St. Peter’s vicar?

Because St. Peter is no longer here with us.

Your line of thinking seems to diminish the role of the Holy Father, making him first among equals when St. Matthew’s Gospel states otherwise.

Again, as I’ve responded to you ad nauseam, no. You are again (ad nauseam) reading into what I post your own biases. Ad nauseam.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The bishops are the successors to the Apostles, but, only the Holy Father is the successor of St. Peter. Jesus charged St. Peter and his successors with the task of serving as the visible head of the Church,not the rest of the Apostolic band. Furthermore, the Gospels record the primacy of St. Peter by listing him at the head of the Apostles. St. Paul even makes mention of the fact that he had to consult with Cephas (Peter) and was first presented to him.

Um, yes, this is exactly what I stated. Only the Pope is the Vicar of St. Peter (i.e. successor). Why the heck are you reiterating and quoting this unnecessarily? This is in no way contrary to what I said.

Do you really read what others post? Or do you just respond based on your preconceived ideas? I really am confused on your response here. Sorry if I am reading what you posted too literally.

 

[Mintaka]

A lot of this stuff is local custom. Long ago they were given a dispensation or a special privilege, and they’re keeping it. So yes, it’s a bit disconcerting for us who just drop in, but it’s not any kind of abuse.

Also, there are a lot – a lot a lot – of special options that priests can use during Mass if they feel like it. Not all of these are printed in normal books for the pews. I know I was surprised to find out there’s over twenty approved Eucharistic Prayers, for example.

As for saying the Regina Coeli after Mass, et al – you’re seeing the collision of two different old customs. One is spending a good deal of time – fifteen minutes or more – praying in thanksgiving for Communion after Mass. Multiple Mass times and parking problems have eliminated this in most parishes, but parishes which still practice this cling hard. The other is saying one of the Hours in the Liturgy of the Hours right after Mass, which was very common because it would be time to say one by the time Mass was over. In places where this was not done, often they would at least say the Regina Coeli or whatever the Marian hymn for the season was.

But nowadays we have a closing hymn that starts as soon as people say “Thanks be to God”, and the priest also leaves right away. So parishes which wish to retain their Regina Coeli will often say or sing it before the dismissal and the closing hymn. Now it may be that there’s an option somewhere in the liturgy books permitting this, or there may not be. Either way, this is the sort of thing that doesn’t keep the Vatican awake at night, as it’s a sensible enough local adaptation, and possibly even an organic development. And if you’re not going to that parish every week, it’s probably not going to worry you, either. (If you were, you might want to ask about the rationale for it.)

 

[benedictgal]

No I am not.

Yes of course. That’s what I said.

Because St. Peter is no longer here with us.

Again, as I’ve responded to you ad nauseam, no. You are again (ad nauseam) reading into what I post your own biases. Ad nauseam.

Um, yes, this is exactly what I stated. Only the Pope is the Vicar of St. Peter (i.e. successor). Why the heck are you reiterating and quoting this unnecessarily? This is in no way contrary to what I said.

Do you really read what others post? Or do you just respond based on your preconceived ideas? I really am confused on your response here. Sorry if I am reading what you posted too literally.

There is no such title as Vicar of St. Peter. The Pope is Peter and he is the Vicar of Christ. That title is specific to him and not to the bishops. With all due respect, you are the one making the confusing statements, not me. In fact, we have had this argument in other threads where you seem to discount authoritative statements made by the CDWDS and give precedence to those by a USCCB Committee which really has no binding authority.

Now, back to the issue of the Creed, I did confirm that the CEM version of the Roman Missal, approved for use in Mexico, does give the option of either the Apostles or the Nicene Creed. Even though we have permission to use the CEM version of the Roman Missal here in South Texas (and I presume, the rest of the country), are we not bound by our own GIRM as opposed to the CEM adapted GIRM? In other words, we uses he CEM version of the Roman Missal, but, our version of the GIRM applies. Is this not correct?

 

[Brendan]

He further reconfirmed it by the Sea of Tiberius when He told Peter to feed his sheep, **tend his sheep **and feed his lambs.

No only that, but Jesus really told Peter to RULE his sheep. The Greek word used, “poimainō”, is the same verb used to describe the relationship a King has towards his people, or an Officer towards his troops.

It means to oversee with command.

It’s the exact same word used in Rev 19:21 to describe Christ’s authority at the Second Coming.

15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron"